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Thread: Demise of magic

  1. #1
    bruizar
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    Demise of magic

    The demise of magic has really happened this year and i dont think it will get any better because there is a different ceo at the helm who is adamant on short term profit. There seems to be no long term strategy besides ‘push digital’ and ‘monetize addicted paper players’, stretching wallets to their breaking point.

    There is so much fatigue amongst the players, spoiler season feels like a chore rather than an exciting evolution of magic’s card pool, and tournaments are so spread out between each other that certain sets hardly even see the light of day before another set is already shouting for attention.

    I truly believe that this time, magic is really in a bad place. Weve been in a bad place before but i truly feel this is different, and i believe that what took 22 years to build is being destroyed in 3 years.

    Tcg’s thrive on longevity, not on short term gains.

    Wonder if u guys notice the same.

  2. #2

    Re: Demise of magic

    I think Magic is doing fine.
    Legacy, however isn't in a great shape.

  3. #3

    Re: Demise of magic

    Hard to say they're overly focused on digital when they just released a new format that is not available on their shiny new online platform.

  4. #4

    Re: Demise of magic

    If spoiler season feels like a chore, you might be media-saturated. Take a break from the internet for a week or two.

    Paper MTG is actually pretty fun right now, although maybe you need a break from the game as well.
    DDD / Death & Taxes

  5. #5

    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    The demise of magic has really happened this year and i dont think it will get any better because there is a different ceo at the helm who is adamant on short term profit. There seems to be no long term strategy besides ‘push digital’ and ‘monetize addicted paper players’, stretching wallets to their breaking point.
    The strategy is actually "maximize return on investment" like most major companies are nowadays, and that is unlikely to change because the most important constituency is Hasbro shareholders who expect constant growth. It is unsustainable in the long term, but most companies lack the luxury to act for the long term because the shareholders want their return and want it now.

  6. #6
    bruizar
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    Re: Demise of magic

    "Hard to say they're overly focused on digital when they just released a new format that is not available on their shiny new online platform."

    Launching a format requires $0 investment. Launching Arena requires many millions. Where are the investments in physical tournaments? Where are the investments in proper card stock? Where are the investments in LGS's? It's direct-to-consumer or Amazon or Walmart, pushing out too much product, catering to the whales with collectors editions and introducing massive power creep. These are the same pay-to-play practices that come from the Zynga era of video games where they search for whales and abuse an addiction, because that is what it has become for many. The only reason why this forum exists is because we are all heavily invested into the game with thousands of dollars worth of product. Spoilers feel like a chore because one set is spoilered and 2 DAYS LATER the next one already begins (War of the Spark into Core2020)

    The comparative enjoyment you get from something like Magic does not objectively justify the thousands of dollars in your collection. Legend of the Five Rings, Star Wars Destiny, Rollplayer, Dominion, Keyforge, and so many other games are objectively not thousands of times less enjoyable as Magic the Gathering is, and some of them are arguably more enjoyable. Thus, the reason why you're in the game, is because your wallet is in the game, not because you like the game so much.

    The professor compared the price of the Throne of Eldraine collectors box (and I believe also the Mythic Edition box) to the Nintendo Switch + 2 or 3 games you could buy for that. We can all agree that the value for money of a Nintendo Switch and a game like Zelda and Super Smash Bros Brawl, which required 7 generations of consoles and billions of dollars of collective technology RND, is far higher than a foil Jace that curls up like a pringle. Even the counterfeits don't curl up like that.

  7. #7

    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    Legacy, however isn't in a great shape.
    Care to elaborate? I’ve heard that story for fifteen years since the end of 1.5.

  8. #8

    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    "Hard to say they're overly focused on digital when they just released a new format that is not available on their shiny new online platform."

    Launching a format requires $0 investment. Launching Arena requires many millions. Where are the investments in physical tournaments? Where are the investments in proper card stock? Where are the investments in LGS's? It's direct-to-consumer or Amazon or Walmart, pushing out too much product, catering to the whales with collectors editions and introducing massive power creep. These are the same pay-to-play practices that come from the Zynga era of video games where they search for whales and abuse an addiction, because that is what it has become for many. The only reason why this forum exists is because we are all heavily invested into the game with thousands of dollars worth of product. Spoilers feel like a chore because one set is spoilered and 2 DAYS LATER the next one already begins (War of the Spark into Core2020)

    The comparative enjoyment you get from something like Magic does not objectively justify the thousands of dollars in your collection. Legend of the Five Rings, Star Wars Destiny, Rollplayer, Dominion, Keyforge, and so many other games are objectively not thousands of times less enjoyable as Magic the Gathering is, and some of them are arguably more enjoyable. Thus, the reason why you're in the game, is because your wallet is in the game, not because you like the game so much.

    The professor compared the price of the Throne of Eldraine collectors box (and I believe also the Mythic Edition box) to the Nintendo Switch + 2 or 3 games you could buy for that. We can all agree that the value for money of a Nintendo Switch and a game like Zelda and Super Smash Bros Brawl, which required 7 generations of consoles and billions of dollars of collective technology RND, is far higher than a foil Jace that curls up like a pringle. Even the counterfeits don't curl up like that.
    So you selling your collection or what?

  9. #9
    bruizar
    Guest

    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So you selling your collection or what?
    I am much less inclined to spend on new cards. I’ll monitor the trend, and if i feel that at some point things escalate to the point where im no longer comfortable holding my collection i will sell off.

    My point here is not to complain, my point is to raise what i see is a threat to magic and see whether others dhare the same thoughts or not. I guess for you the answer is, nothing’s threatening magic right now.

  10. #10
    bruizar
    Guest

    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Care to elaborate? I’ve heard that story for fifteen years since the end of 1.5.
    I think Legacy in local areas is doing great, but the coverage has pretty much disappeared in the professional circuit. By nature of its stagnance/slowness, legacy is insulated to a large degree from the problems felt throughout other formats and media.

  11. #11

    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I am much less inclined to spend on new cards. I’ll monitor the trend, and if i feel that at some point things escalate to the point where im no longer comfortable holding my collection i will sell off.

    My point here is not to complain, my point is to raise what i see is a threat to magic and see whether others dhare the same thoughts or not. I guess for you the answer is, nothing’s threatening magic right now.
    Lol at the idea that this thread, titled "the demise of magic" was for anything but to complain about kids these days and their Mana efficient threats with three abilities.

  12. #12
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    Re: Demise of magic

    Here's a different perspective on recent events. Note that I basically get all my information from online gossip here and on Reddit, so I may very well be misinformed. Also this is just a perspective, there are other perspectives too that aren't necessarily wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    My point here is not to complain, my point is to raise what i see is a threat to magic and see whether others dhare the same thoughts or not. I guess for you the answer is, nothing’s threatening magic right now.
    Anyway, long story short, my response to your question is that I'm carefully positive to how the game is developing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    The demise of magic has really happened this year and i dont think it will get any better because there is a different ceo at the helm who is adamant on short term profit. There seems to be no long term strategy besides ‘push digital’ and ‘monetize addicted paper players’, stretching wallets to their breaking point.
    1. I think Wizards' strategy of establishing MtG as an online game is a good idea, for the game too. About two years ago there was discussion here about how MTGO needed an updated business model, perhaps worrying that MtG's days may be counted, and that's what we have a remedy to now with Arena. The game is supposedly thriving, who doesn't like being able to play basically for free at home at any time (I haven't tried it yet, I heard it's not entirely free, but something in that direction)? Wizards are bringing in new players and a digital business model being more profitable for them is a driving factor for that.

    2. SCG in the US and MCM in Europe have been arranging tournaments that are fairly popular. If Wizards does a bit less for the competitive paper scene for older formats then that opens up for other actors to grow in that area, actors that can nurture the second hand market and make money off of that while growing the culture around the game and the paper competitive scene. GP's are focusing more on casual play and the play experience, it seems. This is perhaps in line with how they try to make the judge organization independent, one can speculate. If it doesn't stand on its own legs, why waste your energy breathing artificial life into it? More on that in the next section.

    3. By focusing their resources on developing and establishing online play, Wizards optimize their resources to bring new players into the game. As player numbers increase, the inflow of new online players trickling down to paper magic, this benefits all actors in the ecosystem around the game, more perhaps than if Wizards would try to handle every part of the ecosystem by themselves. SCG, MCM and other actors can focus on making their business attractive to their customers, stimulating paper magic play which stimulates their sales. Everyone can be a winner!

    It's nice for players to be able to choose between online play (where you today typically start, I guess), casual playing or competitive play in different formats with different qualities catering to the needs of different types of players.

    I think a new format coming up helps keep Standard players from quitting with the disappointment of their cards becoming useless and worthless. As they appreciate a larger format I think that will eventually make a large amount of them interested in Modern and Legacy too.

    And regarding the increased power level of recent printings, a nice aspect of this is that the reserved list cards are becoming less necessary. This can be a bonus for Legacy, which has been doomed from future growth by the limited amount of necessary cards. They are not so necessary any more. As long as new printings doesn't make old strategies irrelevant, the game can grow in aspect of competitive strategies. With that said, the negative aspects you bring up are not wrong, they are also a part of the picture of what's happening.

    Edit: updated with the two quotes.
    Last edited by pettdan; 10-27-2019 at 05:45 PM.

  13. #13
    bruizar
    Guest

    Re: Demise of magic

    I
    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Here's a different perspective on recent events. Note that I basically get all my information from online gossip here and on Reddit, so I may very well be misinformed. Also this is just a perspective, there are other perspectives too that aren't necessarily wrong.



    Anyway, long story short, my response to your question is that I'm carefully positive to how the game is developing.



    1. I think Wizards' strategy of establishing MtG as an online game is a good idea, for the game too. About two years ago there was discussion here about how MTGO needed an updated business model, perhaps worrying that MtG's days may be counted, and that's what we have a remedy to now with Arena. The game is supposedly thriving, who doesn't like being able to play basically for free at home at any time (I haven't tried it yet, I heard it's not entirely free, but something in that direction)? Wizards are bringing in new players and a digital business model being more profitable for them is a driving factor for that.

    2. SCG in the US and MCM in Europe have been arranging tournaments that are fairly popular. If Wizards does a bit less for the competitive paper scene for older formats then that opens up for other actors to grow in that area, actors that can nurture the second hand market and make money off of that while growing the culture around the game and the paper competitive scene. GP's are focusing more on casual play and the play experience, it seems. This is perhaps in line with how they try to make the judge organization independent, one can speculate. If it doesn't stand on its own legs, why waste your energy breathing artificial life into it? More on that in the next section.

    3. By focusing their resources on developing and establishing online play, Wizards optimize their resources to bring new players into the game. As player numbers increase, the inflow of new online players trickling down to paper magic, this benefits all actors in the ecosystem around the game, more perhaps than if Wizards would try to handle every part of the ecosystem by themselves. SCG, MCM and other actors can focus on making their business attractive to their customers, stimulating paper magic play which stimulates their sales. Everyone can be a winner!

    It's nice for players to be able to choose between online play (where you today typically start, I guess), casual playing or competitive play in different formats with different qualities catering to the needs of different types of players.

    I think a new format coming up helps keep Standard players from quitting with the disappointment of their cards becoming useless and worthless. As they appreciate a larger format I think that will eventually make a large amount of them interested in Modern and Legacy too.

    And regarding the increased power level of recent printings, a nice aspect of this is that the reserved list cards are becoming less necessary. This can be a bonus for Legacy, which has been doomed from future growth by the limited amount of necessary cards. They are not so necessary any more. As long as new printings doesn't make old strategies irrelevant, the game can grow in aspect of competitive strategies. With that said, the negative aspects you bring up are not wrong, they are also a part of the picture of what's happening.

    Edit: updated with the two quotes.
    I hear what you are saying and yes online will grow, not because they have such a great business but because people look for more rich play experiences after Hearthstone. This will increase when Riot Games releases its online tcg in the near future based on the league of legends lore.

    Wotc was not at Spiel this year, their arrogance was shown in absence with just a couple of card sellers here and there while other games were actively introducing new players to their game, including fantasy flight games with Star Wars Destiny, Keyforge, konami’s yu-gi-oh!, square-enix’s final fantasy, force of will and pokemon. Even Hasbro was very open, and when I asked why WOTC wasnt there they could only answer I dont know, the company is completely separate. Spiel is one of the standard ways for games companies to bring in new blood to your game and Magic chooses deliberately not to be there meaning that they dont care abiut the paper playerbase nor the community. I spoke with one of the main distributors of magic and he confirmed my views on the new direction of wotc and the fact that they just squeeze out as much money and push out as much product as fast as they can until the player base rejects it, and they dont care about the long term impacts that will cause. You are just a walking wallet essentially.

  14. #14
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    Barook's Avatar
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    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I

    I hear what you are saying and yes online will grow, not because they have such a great business but because people look for more rich play experiences after Hearthstone. This will increase when Riot Games releases its online tcg in the near future based on the league of legends lore.

    Wotc was not at Spiel this year, their arrogance was shown in absence with just a couple of card sellers here and there while other games were actively introducing new players to their game, including fantasy flight games with Star Wars Destiny, Keyforge, konami’s yu-gi-oh!, square-enix’s final fantasy, force of will and pokemon. Even Hasbro was very open, and when I asked why WOTC wasnt there they could only answer I dont know, the company is completely separate. Spiel is one of the standard ways for games companies to bring in new blood to your game and Magic chooses deliberately not to be there meaning that they dont care abiut the paper playerbase nor the community. I spoke with one of the main distributors of magic and he confirmed my views on the new direction of wotc and the fact that they just squeeze out as much money and push out as much product as fast as they can until the player base rejects it, and they dont care about the long term impacts that will cause. You are just a walking wallet essentially.
    The beauty about this is that karma is a bitch and it will bite WotC in the ass in the foreseeable future. People are fucking pissed about Standard being absolutely horrendous and Arena getting buggier and buggier by the minute.

  15. #15

    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    The beauty about this is that karma is a bitch and it will bite WotC in the ass in the foreseeable future. People are fucking pissed about Standard being absolutely horrendous and Arena getting buggier and buggier by the minute.
    Of 102 decks, 8 decks did not run green.
    Card name: Veil of Summer
    # of copies: 247
    # of decks: 92
    Currently, 67% of the field is Oko decks.
    Meanwhile in Modern:



    Standard and Modern are good formats and you can trust WotC on the direction of the game because they know what they're doing :|

  16. #16
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    Meanwhile in Modern:



    Standard and Modern are good formats and you can trust WotC on the direction of the game because they know what they're doing :|
    Interestingly, Oko is in six out of those eight decks. Big splash for that card.

  17. #17

    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    The beauty about this is that karma is a bitch and it will bite WotC in the ass in the foreseeable future. People are fucking pissed about Standard being absolutely horrendous and Arena getting buggier and buggier by the minute.
    The continuous ban cycles are also taking a toll, certainly with me.

    I do think the formats are going out-of-wack and we are getting into a silly point where the new normal is release-ban-release-ban...

  18. #18
    It's not easy being green

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    Re: Demise of magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  19. #19

    Re: Demise of magic

    Bloody well, twin is really oppressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    Meanwhile in Modern:



    Standard and Modern are good formats and you can trust WotC on the direction of the game because they know what they're doing :|

  20. #20
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    Re: Demise of magic

    To win Standard SCGs, just play 4 maindeck Noxious Grasp.
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-walkers#paper

    Even in Brainstorm.format, we don't maindeck 4 Red Elemental Blast (excluding Painter decks).

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