Honestly, not as promising as the Dark Confidant version. The Dreadnought/Stifle plan ends up being a little too risky without any source of card advantage. I think a traditional UB Shadow list would end up being more viable with Gurmag Anglers. I'm still in the testing phase (goldfishing) but it doesn't feel as strong of a Dreadnought deck as it is a Delver deck.
I'm concerned about the saturation of Veil of Summer in the format. It means that spot removal/discard gets a lot worse. If that's the case, and I still don't shelve the deck and move to another strategy, then I think Toxic Deluge becomes necessary. Veil doesn't do anything other than cantrip against Deluge.
I'm keeping tabs on BUG and Grixis Delver for a little while, BUG especially seems to be doing well. Whether that continues will give me an indication of how good blue/black strategies are positioned in the format.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Additional note: I'm not playing Daze, which makes playing Deluge a lot more reliable. Reversing a land drop turns 1-2 will be counterproductive to making sure I hit a t3 Deluge. I've done a little more testing and I regularly hit 3-4 land drops in a game, either through cantrips or Bob drawing extra cards. I'm really tempted to switch into a setup with 20 land + Jace/Liliana instead of Stifle + Dreadnought.
Cutting the dreadnought package (which includes Lim-Dul's Vault) gives me 8 slots. Two lands +1 Jace +1 Liliana is only 4 of those 8 slots. I would get a 2nd Deluge and a 3rd Hymn in there, but the other 2 cards need to be blue to support the 5 forces. Snapcaster Mage, Vantress Gargoyle, Spell Snare, Drown in the Loch, Vapor Snag, Flusterstorm, Preordain, Venser, Shaper Savant, Narset Parter of Veils, Ashiok, Dream Render are all on the list for testing in that sort of setup. I have a feeling it would be just a worse version of Grixis Control so I likely will just keep it with 12/12's for the time being.
Splash colors could be enticing, like green for Berserk, Veil of Summer, Sylvan Library, and Abrupt Decay. Red gives me Bolts, KCommand, and Pyroblasts. White gives me Swords to Plowshares, little Teferi, and Disenchant-effects. All three splashes can be easily supported with different fetchland/Shockland configurations.
I'm hoping to get a Thursday night local in (3-4 rounds) this week to see where the deck really needs help.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I played 3 rounds with my list last night at a weekly event, did alright, went 2-1. Beat Turbo Depths and Belcher, lost to Moon stompy. One change was i dropped LDV for a Drown in the Loch.
Dark Confidant is not great unless in a control mirror, and i think Bitterblossom is actually better. I lost 2 games to Bob flipping force, not a good feeling when the game was essentially locked up for me. Street Wraiths in, which means i will probably try out Reanimates. I'll post a new list once I figure it out.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
If you're losing to Moon and there's a lot of Moon in your meta, could you play with more basics? You don't need to fetch -> Shock every game. Street Wraith + Reanimate may help with the life loss despite getting basics more often.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I'm thinking of re-visiting this idea, I think it could be pretty good with the correct balance of Dark Confidant/Standstill between the main/side. The basic idea is to maximize turn 0-1 interaction (Force of Will, Force of Negation, Thoughtseize, Fatal Push, Dismember) into a t2 Standstill (or in the right matchup t2 Dreadnought.) Big threats to finish the game with Shadow/Dreadnought, Borrower/Scroll as additional threats that pull double duty as either disruption or combo enablers. Reanimate without Street Wraith seems a bit lackluster, and the lack of Street Wraith means I have to find other ways to ding my life total like Toxic Deluge.
Proposed list for testing:
Threats - 12
4x Death's Shadow
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Scroll of Fate
Cantrips/Draw/PW's -8
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Permission - 10
4x Thoughtseize
4x Force of Will
2x Stubborn Denial
Removal - 5
2x Fatal Push
2x Dismember
1x Toxic Deluge
Combo/Mana Disruption - 4
4x Stifle
Lands - 21
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mystic Sanctuary
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory
Sideboard
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Plague Engineer
3x Dark Confidant
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Force of Negation
2x Bitterblossom
1x Umezawa's Jitte
I like that it will play better as a mid-range deck, and better at closing games. In games where Standstill is bad Dark Confidant should be good (Death and Taxes mostly.) Testing out a Jitte in the board to manage life total with Bob's and also to fight go-wide strategies like Young Pyromancer, Elves, D&T, Goblins.
No Daze for now, I don't see how I squeeze in 3-4 without cutting Jace, removal, or utility creatures like Borrower. I think all of those are better suited to the deck instead of Daze, but I could be 100% wrong. I think hitting land drops on curve to hit t2/3 bombs is better, so Daze creates a tension I don't think the deck can handle.
EDIT: Alternatively, I am thinking of going 3 color and dropping the Factories for green mana sources. That opens up Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Oko, and Veil of Summer in the sideboard. Berserk sounds fun but I don't see how I fit it in there without compromising something else.
Last edited by Mr. Safety; 02-24-2020 at 09:56 AM.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I think the issue with the Standstill angle is that it’s probably easier to go full UB Standstill, and largely cut the creatures. The focus would instead be on exploiting the asymmetry with Innocent Blood and Dead of Winter/Deluge. This is also a much better home for recently pushed cards like Drown in the Loch, Murderous Rider, Karn (UB’s premier Chalice killer), Plague Engi, and potentially even Blacklance Paragon. Lots of really strong modal effects here particularly in the areas of lifegain, anti-PW, board control, and anti-artifact. Scroll of Fate does fine in a shell like this as a 1x maindeck [functioning as printed], and you could even go further by giving Karn a Dreadnought in the wishboard. I think with 8x Fetch (Delta full of Vista), you’d only want 1x Sea due to the playability of 2x Tar Pit, so not an overly expensive manabase.
Standstill with dedicated Dreadnought package is going to fit much better into UW or UR at this time. If you’re looking for a 2cmc card that really brings together Dreadnought and Shadow, I think you’re looking at white for Orzhov Charm, which is removal/life-loss ramp and recursive loops which confound removal. You’re also off Delver so the value Lazav isn’t entirely out of the question. Other synergies to investigate include cards like Liliana, Heretical Healer (not that this is better than Last Hope, just that it has text with suicidal creatures). In terms of straight-up value cards, Tasigur is fairly underplayed right now, and there’s something to be said for a 1-mana ferocious enabler.
Good thoughts. Beyond Orzhov Charm needing white, I like the idea of having genuine Disenchant effects in the sideboard. It also opens up 3Feri and possibly Swords to Plowshares as a premiere removal spell. Tasigur is interesting, but I think I'd just play Gurmag x1-2 if it came down to that. I'm not sure how often I would be activating Tasigur, but it would be a non-zero amount of times so I think it's a valid option. Getting to 4 mana will be fairly reliable given 21 lands.
I noticed that in games I was winning, Death's Shadow did the work in about 2-3 turns. Dreadnought does the same but can be played earlier. I like the idea of enabling Shadows with Scroll as well, to get them onto the battlefield uncountered, and still flip them over for only B.
One question: do you think Creeping Tar Pit is better than Factory? It would be better for my mana-base but much longer to put on pressure. The tradeoff of time does mean it can kill PW's easier and finish games out.
EDIT: Other options over Standstill are Narset, Parter of Veils, maindeck Liliana, the Last Hope, maindeck Bitterblossom. All give card advantage in some way, even if it isn't actual card draw like Standstill.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've been jammin' this (goldfishing) lately and it has been doing well.
4x Death's Shadow
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Dark Confidant
2x Brazen Borrower
1x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Force of Will
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
1x Drown in the Loch
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Mystic Sanctuary
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
2x Bitterblossom
2x Plague Engineer
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Liliana's Triumph
2x Force of Negation
2x Ratchet Bomb
I haven't played locally in a while, so the SB might change a little bit. Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Toxic Deluge, Jace TMS, and more copies of Ashiok are potential changes. Ashiok seems very good, just a way to shut down an avenue of value in quite a few decks.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Necromancy...
I also saw this spicy list recently:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21639&d=345299&f=LE
Necro-ing this idea because I was trying to jam Vengevines recently with Shadow, but the Arclight Phoenix plan sounds pretty spicy as well.
Rough list (no Dreadnoughts):
Threats -12
4x Death's Shadow
4x Arclight Phoenix
2x Young Pyromancer
2x Gurmag Angler
Engine - 12
4x Buried Alive
4x Faithless Looting
4x Dark Ritual
Disruption - 12
4x Thoughtseize
4x Daze
4x Gut Shot
Cantrips - 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
16 Lands
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Island
1x Swamp
Really curious what Cabal Therapy could do for the deck. Sideboarding Forces seems perfectly reasonable as well.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Why Anglers and YP over Delver?
With cards like Gut Shot and the card disadvantage of Dark Ritual, this deck can't play the grindy game. It's trying to win fast. Delver's a much better pressure card.
That is definitely another idea! So maybe this:
4x delver of secrets
4x Death's shadow
4x arclight Phoenix
4x dark ritual
4x buried Alive
3x thoughtseize
3x cabal therapy
4x daze
4x brainstorm
2x faithless looting
4x ponder
2x gut shot
2x lightning bolt
4x polluted delta
3x scalding tarn
2x misty Rainforest
2x watery grave
2x steam venta
1x blood crypt
1x island
1x swamp
Young pyromancer could easily be a sideboard card; after watching some streams it pairs with the cantrips and therapies really nicely. Free therapy out of the yard can enable some pretty busted plays.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Cool that you're picking up the idea. I've had my list ready since last October, just never got to to it to action since Leyline and then Control piles took over & pushed both Phoenix and Shadow out of the meta until Breech came and went. Perhaps now is the time to test this at last?
Definitely agree with Delver over Peezy. And I personally like Entomb over Buried Alive + Ritual here; it's more elegant and opens cool tutoring options (Bloodghast, Shenanigans, Cling to Dust). I also think the Buried Alive plan is too risky in a world where everybody maindecks 5-6 Forces. Royal Scions are a strong consideration as a one-of; Tarnished Citadel another cute option once you're in 3 colors. Snuff Out is a must. And no Peezy --> no therapies.
But you don't have to brew this from scratch either, have you seen this article?
https://boltbird.com/p/grixis-arclight-shadow-a-primer
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
That's a great primer! In this Oko meta I might try something like this
//Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Arclight Phoenix
//Spells: 32
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Gut Shot
1 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Buried Alive
1 Snuff Out
//Lands: 16
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
//Sideboard: 15
1 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
2 Pyroblast
2 Plague Engineer
2 Brazen Borrower
Gut Shot seems pretty good vs Hierarchs, Delvers, Thalia, Coatl, Strix, Hexmage, YP,...
I think Wasteland is not high-reward enough with so much Astrolabe around.
The SB has 4 answers to Chalice (Abrade, Borrower) and 3 answers to Marit Lage/Grisel (Triumph, Borrower), which addresses a lot of the non-Oko decks.
There are 5 answers for a resolved Oko (Borrower, Needle, Pyroblast), plus counter magic, Gut Shot to slow down the ramp, Abrades to kill their own Elk target in response, and Phoenixes to haste attack it. Hopefully that gives the deck a lot of angles to disrupt Oko decks and race in the early game.
Edit: +1 Ashiok -1 Crypt, +1 Snuff Out -1 Dismember
Last edited by FTW; 03-29-2020 at 06:41 AM.
Love it, once I get the Phoenixs' I'll put it together. It's the only card I'm missing besides Sea/Badlands. I think I can work with shocks/basics for now.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
@FTW List looks good, as far as a Buried Alive version goes. But especially when running Ritual: 100% Snuff Out > Dismember. Dark Ritual also facilitates Ashiok DR out of the board--probably over the 2nd Crypt. T1 "thou shall not fetch" can steal games, plus it effectively nerfs problem creatures (Goyf, Arcanist, KotR) and Uro.
for reference, here's my list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2874176#paper
I really like how light the red splash is, though 1-2 Lightning Bolts over the 2nd Snuff Out and /or the 3rd Daze could be good here. Another close cut was a 1-of Cabal Therapy (over the 3rd Daze) as another Entomb target that works nicely with the Bloodghast. Going down to 3 Birds is another option to squeeze in the Therapy, a Bolt or maindeck Brazen Boi. Needs testing to figure out these adjustments.
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