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Thread: Death-Nought

  1. #41
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    Re: Death-Nought

    Honestly, not as promising as the Dark Confidant version. The Dreadnought/Stifle plan ends up being a little too risky without any source of card advantage. I think a traditional UB Shadow list would end up being more viable with Gurmag Anglers. I'm still in the testing phase (goldfishing) but it doesn't feel as strong of a Dreadnought deck as it is a Delver deck.

    I'm concerned about the saturation of Veil of Summer in the format. It means that spot removal/discard gets a lot worse. If that's the case, and I still don't shelve the deck and move to another strategy, then I think Toxic Deluge becomes necessary. Veil doesn't do anything other than cantrip against Deluge.

    I'm keeping tabs on BUG and Grixis Delver for a little while, BUG especially seems to be doing well. Whether that continues will give me an indication of how good blue/black strategies are positioned in the format.
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  2. #42

    Re: Death-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Honestly, not as promising as the Dark Confidant version. The Dreadnought/Stifle plan ends up being a little too risky without any source of card advantage. I think a traditional UB Shadow list would end up being more viable with Gurmag Anglers. I'm still in the testing phase (goldfishing) but it doesn't feel as strong of a Dreadnought deck as it is a Delver deck.

    I'm concerned about the saturation of Veil of Summer in the format. It means that spot removal/discard gets a lot worse. If that's the case, and I still don't shelve the deck and move to another strategy, then I think Toxic Deluge becomes necessary. Veil doesn't do anything other than cantrip against Deluge.

    I'm keeping tabs on BUG and Grixis Delver for a little while, BUG especially seems to be doing well. Whether that continues will give me an indication of how good blue/black strategies are positioned in the format.
    Yeah Veil is a pain in the ass. I'm building Pox and I'll be running Deluge and a couple SurgEx main that should help with that annoyance.

    Won't it be pretty hard to cast a 3 drop in UB Nought though?

  3. #43
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    Re: Death-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    Yeah Veil is a pain in the ass. I'm building Pox and I'll be running Deluge and a couple SurgEx main that should help with that annoyance.

    Won't it be pretty hard to cast a 3 drop in UB Nought though?
    At 18 lands, yes. If i end up putting a 2nd Deluge maindeck I would have to shave something for a 19th land. The nature of the deck without Delver is more midrange, so i have time to hit 3 lands in most games. To optimize, 19 lands.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    Additional note: I'm not playing Daze, which makes playing Deluge a lot more reliable. Reversing a land drop turns 1-2 will be counterproductive to making sure I hit a t3 Deluge. I've done a little more testing and I regularly hit 3-4 land drops in a game, either through cantrips or Bob drawing extra cards. I'm really tempted to switch into a setup with 20 land + Jace/Liliana instead of Stifle + Dreadnought.

    Cutting the dreadnought package (which includes Lim-Dul's Vault) gives me 8 slots. Two lands +1 Jace +1 Liliana is only 4 of those 8 slots. I would get a 2nd Deluge and a 3rd Hymn in there, but the other 2 cards need to be blue to support the 5 forces. Snapcaster Mage, Vantress Gargoyle, Spell Snare, Drown in the Loch, Vapor Snag, Flusterstorm, Preordain, Venser, Shaper Savant, Narset Parter of Veils, Ashiok, Dream Render are all on the list for testing in that sort of setup. I have a feeling it would be just a worse version of Grixis Control so I likely will just keep it with 12/12's for the time being.

    Splash colors could be enticing, like green for Berserk, Veil of Summer, Sylvan Library, and Abrupt Decay. Red gives me Bolts, KCommand, and Pyroblasts. White gives me Swords to Plowshares, little Teferi, and Disenchant-effects. All three splashes can be easily supported with different fetchland/Shockland configurations.

    I'm hoping to get a Thursday night local in (3-4 rounds) this week to see where the deck really needs help.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    I played 3 rounds with my list last night at a weekly event, did alright, went 2-1. Beat Turbo Depths and Belcher, lost to Moon stompy. One change was i dropped LDV for a Drown in the Loch.

    Dark Confidant is not great unless in a control mirror, and i think Bitterblossom is actually better. I lost 2 games to Bob flipping force, not a good feeling when the game was essentially locked up for me. Street Wraiths in, which means i will probably try out Reanimates. I'll post a new list once I figure it out.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    If you're losing to Moon and there's a lot of Moon in your meta, could you play with more basics? You don't need to fetch -> Shock every game. Street Wraith + Reanimate may help with the life loss despite getting basics more often.

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    Re: Death-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    If you're losing to Moon and there's a lot of Moon in your meta, could you play with more basics? You don't need to fetch -> Shock every game. Street Wraith + Reanimate may help with the life loss despite getting basics more often.
    It was actually the go-wide threats that did me in. I played around chalice only to lose to rabblemaster/warboss. I think i need more practice with the matchup, it was my first match against it.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    I'm thinking of re-visiting this idea, I think it could be pretty good with the correct balance of Dark Confidant/Standstill between the main/side. The basic idea is to maximize turn 0-1 interaction (Force of Will, Force of Negation, Thoughtseize, Fatal Push, Dismember) into a t2 Standstill (or in the right matchup t2 Dreadnought.) Big threats to finish the game with Shadow/Dreadnought, Borrower/Scroll as additional threats that pull double duty as either disruption or combo enablers. Reanimate without Street Wraith seems a bit lackluster, and the lack of Street Wraith means I have to find other ways to ding my life total like Toxic Deluge.

    Proposed list for testing:

    Threats - 12
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2x Brazen Borrower
    2x Scroll of Fate

    Cantrips/Draw/PW's -8
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Standstill
    1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Permission - 10
    4x Thoughtseize
    4x Force of Will
    2x Stubborn Denial

    Removal - 5
    2x Fatal Push
    2x Dismember
    1x Toxic Deluge

    Combo/Mana Disruption - 4
    4x Stifle

    Lands - 21
    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Misty Rainforest
    1x Marsh Flats
    4x Watery Grave
    1x Island
    1x Swamp
    1x Mystic Sanctuary
    3x Wasteland
    3x Mishra's Factory

    Sideboard
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Plague Engineer
    3x Dark Confidant
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Force of Negation
    2x Bitterblossom
    1x Umezawa's Jitte


    I like that it will play better as a mid-range deck, and better at closing games. In games where Standstill is bad Dark Confidant should be good (Death and Taxes mostly.) Testing out a Jitte in the board to manage life total with Bob's and also to fight go-wide strategies like Young Pyromancer, Elves, D&T, Goblins.

    No Daze for now, I don't see how I squeeze in 3-4 without cutting Jace, removal, or utility creatures like Borrower. I think all of those are better suited to the deck instead of Daze, but I could be 100% wrong. I think hitting land drops on curve to hit t2/3 bombs is better, so Daze creates a tension I don't think the deck can handle.

    EDIT: Alternatively, I am thinking of going 3 color and dropping the Factories for green mana sources. That opens up Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Oko, and Veil of Summer in the sideboard. Berserk sounds fun but I don't see how I fit it in there without compromising something else.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 02-24-2020 at 09:56 AM.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Death-Nought

    I think the issue with the Standstill angle is that itís probably easier to go full UB Standstill, and largely cut the creatures. The focus would instead be on exploiting the asymmetry with Innocent Blood and Dead of Winter/Deluge. This is also a much better home for recently pushed cards like Drown in the Loch, Murderous Rider, Karn (UBís premier Chalice killer), Plague Engi, and potentially even Blacklance Paragon. Lots of really strong modal effects here particularly in the areas of lifegain, anti-PW, board control, and anti-artifact. Scroll of Fate does fine in a shell like this as a 1x maindeck [functioning as printed], and you could even go further by giving Karn a Dreadnought in the wishboard. I think with 8x Fetch (Delta full of Vista), youíd only want 1x Sea due to the playability of 2x Tar Pit, so not an overly expensive manabase.

    Standstill with dedicated Dreadnought package is going to fit much better into UW or UR at this time. If youíre looking for a 2cmc card that really brings together Dreadnought and Shadow, I think youíre looking at white for Orzhov Charm, which is removal/life-loss ramp and recursive loops which confound removal. Youíre also off Delver so the value Lazav isnít entirely out of the question. Other synergies to investigate include cards like Liliana, Heretical Healer (not that this is better than Last Hope, just that it has text with suicidal creatures). In terms of straight-up value cards, Tasigur is fairly underplayed right now, and thereís something to be said for a 1-mana ferocious enabler.

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    Re: Death-Nought

    Good thoughts. Beyond Orzhov Charm needing white, I like the idea of having genuine Disenchant effects in the sideboard. It also opens up 3Feri and possibly Swords to Plowshares as a premiere removal spell. Tasigur is interesting, but I think I'd just play Gurmag x1-2 if it came down to that. I'm not sure how often I would be activating Tasigur, but it would be a non-zero amount of times so I think it's a valid option. Getting to 4 mana will be fairly reliable given 21 lands.

    I noticed that in games I was winning, Death's Shadow did the work in about 2-3 turns. Dreadnought does the same but can be played earlier. I like the idea of enabling Shadows with Scroll as well, to get them onto the battlefield uncountered, and still flip them over for only B.

    One question: do you think Creeping Tar Pit is better than Factory? It would be better for my mana-base but much longer to put on pressure. The tradeoff of time does mean it can kill PW's easier and finish games out.

    EDIT: Other options over Standstill are Narset, Parter of Veils, maindeck Liliana, the Last Hope, maindeck Bitterblossom. All give card advantage in some way, even if it isn't actual card draw like Standstill.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    I've been jammin' this (goldfishing) lately and it has been doing well.

    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2x Dark Confidant
    2x Brazen Borrower
    1x Scroll of Fate
    4x Brainstorm
    3x Ponder
    4x Stifle
    4x Thoughtseize
    2x Hymn to Tourach
    4x Force of Will
    2x Stubborn Denial
    2x Fatal Push
    1x Dismember
    1x Drown in the Loch
    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Misty Rainforest
    1x Marsh Flats
    4x Watery Grave
    1x Island
    1x Swamp
    1x Creeping Tar Pit
    1x Mystic Sanctuary
    4x Wasteland

    Sideboard
    2x Bitterblossom
    2x Plague Engineer
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Nihil Spellbomb
    1x Ashiok, Dream Render
    1x Liliana, the Last Hope
    1x Umezawa's Jitte
    1x Liliana's Triumph
    2x Force of Negation
    2x Ratchet Bomb


    I haven't played locally in a while, so the SB might change a little bit. Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Toxic Deluge, Jace TMS, and more copies of Ashiok are potential changes. Ashiok seems very good, just a way to shut down an avenue of value in quite a few decks.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    Necromancy...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    @ Mr. Safety: Totally get that you'd rather play 12/12s. Same for me tbh: just can't put those Dreadnoughts down, which is why I haven't tested the Arclight Shadow plan yet. But the package isn't as large or clunky as you might think and fits into the stock DS list pretty neatly (OUT: Street Wraiths, Reanimates, Anglers, shave 1-2 Daze/Force, cut the 2 extra counterspells (Stubby D / Force of N) IN: 4 Dark Rituals, 4 Buried Alive, 4 Phoenixes; use 2 Snuff Outs, 2 Gut Shots for removal (& T1 Freebird potential); then add 1-2 Preordains + 2 lands for the Wastelands. Red splash is for hardcast Birds and the usual sideboard staples only, so 2-3 red sources will do.) It's just a different variation of a similar jank (Delver-Shadow on crack) that might just be synergistic enough to work. I agree with what I think @Fox said somewhere: Street Wraith is the weakest link in DS, so that's where experimentation should start.
    I also saw this spicy list recently:

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21639&d=345299&f=LE

    Necro-ing this idea because I was trying to jam Vengevines recently with Shadow, but the Arclight Phoenix plan sounds pretty spicy as well.

    Rough list (no Dreadnoughts):

    Threats -12
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Arclight Phoenix
    2x Young Pyromancer
    2x Gurmag Angler

    Engine - 12
    4x Buried Alive
    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Dark Ritual

    Disruption - 12
    4x Thoughtseize
    4x Daze
    4x Gut Shot

    Cantrips - 8
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder

    16 Lands
    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Scalding Tarn
    2x Verdant Catacombs
    3x Watery Grave
    1x Blood Crypt
    1x Steam Vents
    1x Island
    1x Swamp


    Really curious what Cabal Therapy could do for the deck. Sideboarding Forces seems perfectly reasonable as well.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    Why Anglers and YP over Delver?

    With cards like Gut Shot and the card disadvantage of Dark Ritual, this deck can't play the grindy game. It's trying to win fast. Delver's a much better pressure card.

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    Re: Death-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Why Anglers and YP over Delver?

    With cards like Gut Shot and the card disadvantage of Dark Ritual, this deck can't play the grindy game. It's trying to win fast. Delver's a much better pressure card.
    That is definitely another idea! So maybe this:

    4x delver of secrets
    4x Death's shadow
    4x arclight Phoenix
    4x dark ritual
    4x buried Alive
    3x thoughtseize
    3x cabal therapy
    4x daze
    4x brainstorm
    2x faithless looting
    4x ponder
    2x gut shot
    2x lightning bolt
    4x polluted delta
    3x scalding tarn
    2x misty Rainforest
    2x watery grave
    2x steam venta
    1x blood crypt
    1x island
    1x swamp


    Young pyromancer could easily be a sideboard card; after watching some streams it pairs with the cantrips and therapies really nicely. Free therapy out of the yard can enable some pretty busted plays.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    Cool that you're picking up the idea. I've had my list ready since last October, just never got to to it to action since Leyline and then Control piles took over & pushed both Phoenix and Shadow out of the meta until Breech came and went. Perhaps now is the time to test this at last?

    Definitely agree with Delver over Peezy. And I personally like Entomb over Buried Alive + Ritual here; it's more elegant and opens cool tutoring options (Bloodghast, Shenanigans, Cling to Dust). I also think the Buried Alive plan is too risky in a world where everybody maindecks 5-6 Forces. Royal Scions are a strong consideration as a one-of; Tarnished Citadel another cute option once you're in 3 colors. Snuff Out is a must. And no Peezy --> no therapies.

    But you don't have to brew this from scratch either, have you seen this article?

    https://boltbird.com/p/grixis-arclight-shadow-a-primer

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    Re: Death-Nought

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    Cool that you're picking up the idea. I've had my list ready since last October, just never got to to it to action since Leyline and then Control piles took over & pushed both Phoenix and Shadow out of the meta until Breech came and went. Perhaps now is the time to test this at last?

    Definitely agree with Delver over Peezy. And I personally like Entomb over Buried Alive + Ritual here; it's more elegant and opens cool tutoring options (Bloodghast, Shenanigans, Cling to Dust). I also think the Buried Alive plan is too risky in a world where everybody maindecks 5-6 Forces. Royal Scions are a strong consideration as a one-of; Tarnished Citadel another cute option once you're in 3 colors. Snuff Out is a must. And no Peezy --> no therapies.

    But you don't have to brew this from scratch either, have you seen this article?

    https://boltbird.com/p/grixis-arclight-shadow-a-primer
    Wow, thanks for the article! I will use that as my starting point, it looks strong.

    Sideboard would definitely be different, having access to Brazen borrower, Plague engineer, and Force of negation.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    That's a great primer! In this Oko meta I might try something like this


    //Creatures: 12
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Death's Shadow
    4 Arclight Phoenix

    //Spells: 32
    3 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Gut Shot
    1 Preordain
    4 Daze
    4 Buried Alive
    1 Snuff Out

    //Lands: 16
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Watery Grave
    1 Blood Crypt
    1 Steam Vents
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Force of Will
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Liliana's Triumph
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Abrade
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Brazen Borrower


    Gut Shot seems pretty good vs Hierarchs, Delvers, Thalia, Coatl, Strix, Hexmage, YP,...

    I think Wasteland is not high-reward enough with so much Astrolabe around.

    The SB has 4 answers to Chalice (Abrade, Borrower) and 3 answers to Marit Lage/Grisel (Triumph, Borrower), which addresses a lot of the non-Oko decks.

    There are 5 answers for a resolved Oko (Borrower, Needle, Pyroblast), plus counter magic, Gut Shot to slow down the ramp, Abrades to kill their own Elk target in response, and Phoenixes to haste attack it. Hopefully that gives the deck a lot of angles to disrupt Oko decks and race in the early game.

    Edit: +1 Ashiok -1 Crypt, +1 Snuff Out -1 Dismember
    Last edited by FTW; 03-29-2020 at 06:41 AM.

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    Re: Death-Nought

    Love it, once I get the Phoenixs' I'll put it together. It's the only card I'm missing besides Sea/Badlands. I think I can work with shocks/basics for now.
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    Re: Death-Nought

    @FTW List looks good, as far as a Buried Alive version goes. But especially when running Ritual: 100% Snuff Out > Dismember. Dark Ritual also facilitates Ashiok DR out of the board--probably over the 2nd Crypt. T1 "thou shall not fetch" can steal games, plus it effectively nerfs problem creatures (Goyf, Arcanist, KotR) and Uro.

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    Re: Death-Nought

    for reference, here's my list:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2874176#paper

    I really like how light the red splash is, though 1-2 Lightning Bolts over the 2nd Snuff Out and /or the 3rd Daze could be good here. Another close cut was a 1-of Cabal Therapy (over the 3rd Daze) as another Entomb target that works nicely with the Bloodghast. Going down to 3 Birds is another option to squeeze in the Therapy, a Bolt or maindeck Brazen Boi. Needs testing to figure out these adjustments.

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