Yeah, I think Dreadnought is already 'all-in' and going with Lazav as well is a recipe for losing to variance. It provides an avenue for protection, but I can already get that with Thoughtseize/Force/Daze or just jamming 7/7 Shadows if they die.
What I like about Ub Shadow is the velocity, playing 8 cantrips and 4 'free' cyclers that enable your biggest threat. Stifle is a card that can push tempo with mana-denial while also enabling a 12/12 trampler. It's also a Force of Will + Daze + Thoughtseize deck, which means protecting the combo should be pretty easy to do. I love to jam bad synergies sometimes but this one has a ton of overlap that I think could make it viable.
Regarding Dreadstill: I think the weak point in that deck is Standstill, which is metagame dependant. I have a notoriously blue-light metagame where it just doesn't pull its weight. There was a recent 1K and there was only 4 copies of Brainstorm in the top8. I think replacing Standstill with Dark Confidant for the needed card replacement from playing Force + Dreadnought could be potentially powerful. He's playable when fighting from behind in the game and even can absorb critical removal spells from opponents, all the while supporting the Death's Shadow plan by using life as a powerful resource. I am strongly leaning towards Confidant over Street Wraith.
There have been several Force of Will/Dark Confidant variants in legacy, I mean Team America used to be a premiere deck. The worst part of that setup was blind flipping Force of Will from a Bob trigger. Now it actually accelerates the Death's Shadow plan.
Listen, I'm not saying 'this is the best deck ever'; but I am saying this seems to have some serious potential because of the strong synergistic overlap of the cards.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Another route to take here could be Arclight Shadow. There were a couple of lists popping up on MtG Top 8 earlier this year and I recently put together my own, but haven't had the chance to playtest it yet. Similar idea: replace the secondary threat package in DS with another, more explosive but fragile line of attack. Dark Ritual opens all kinds of shenanigans for post-SB games (T1 Hymns, LtlH, Ashiok, etc.), while a slight red splash enables Blasts and Abrades. I think there's merit to experimenting with DS versions atm, I'm not super sold on the stock list as optimal for the current meta.
So the miner’s canary for Hymn is that it’s not winning games in the optimal shell: Grixis. This is a rather unbroken line dating back to ~2012 (Snapcaster + DRS) of Hymn cheese beginning with Shardless into Czech Pile into Grixis “Control.” In the case of Shardless, you were never resolving SCM vs CB so you had to use the worse, but uncounterable trigger to dig to/towards Decay. Long story short: if these decks can’t use Hymn profitably, the card sucks and its presence in a suboptimal deck [no SCM] is holding your deck back. You do not want to be the one topdecking Hymn against an opponent who can topdeck Wrenn/Oko/Dreadhorde.
The Dark Rit for turbo walker is fine, but a little high on the variance if we’re also adding in Dreadnought. I’d rather try and cheese Rit -> PW in shells like Storm, Griselbrand, or Pox.
The main issue with adding in Shadow is that you lose Dreadnought’s auto-wins against Chalice, and end up with a deck that now turbo-scoops to Chalice. Red represents the worst splash color for UB-core Nought as it only gives us randomly good effects...which are guaranteed to not help you make a Dreadnought.
Any 3rd color has to abolish its auto-loss to Chalice to begin toying with the idea of picking up probably loses to Wasteland. Dreadnought + Shadow is kinda waiting on cards that don’t exist yet, but we do see potential in cards like Orzhov Charm to unite the two.
The current mana-base I'm sporting can't support Hymn to Tourach; I would have to play all dual lands to make it work, which isn't something I'm prepared to do in a metagame that always has an unhealthy saturation of Moon Stompy and low saturation of combo or control decks (both of which are the best prey for Hymns.) Not only do I not own Useas but I definitely want basic lands. You could argue that I shouldn't even play this deck in a Moon-heavy metagame, but I think there is some consideration to having something like this as a combo/tempo deck. Dark Ritual makes the deck even more fragile and doesn't deal with Blood Moon. Petal I could possibly get behind (t1 Dreadnoughts/Bobs are pretty good with Force/Daze backup) but that takes up critical disruption slots. Resiliency vs Explosiveness argument all over again.
I think red adds a lot of good value, if I decided to go that route. Lightning Bolt, Abrade, Pyroblast, and even Temur Battle Rage support the plan very well by offering reach and disruption from a different angle. Grixis Delver still puts up occasional results, even if it is the non-optimal tempo deck ATM (Canadian has reclaimed that title for now.)
I'm not sure how Dreadnought auto-wins against Chalice decks, that is admittedly not something I have experienced. I have very little experience with Dreadstill but it never seemed like a blowout to me. I know Scroll of Fate has changed that dynamic, but that is the only case I can think of where it really overbalances. Everything else is dependant on play/draw, whether I have Force of Will/Force of Negation for that t1 Chalice on the draw or at least Spell Snare/Pierce/Daze/Forces on the play.
With recent discussion in mind, I'm actually thinking there are 2 more directions I could take this:
1) Drop Daze and split the slots with Spell Pierce/Torpor Orb/Scroll of Fate. Daze can really slow down the plan when I need to have 2 mana available for a t2 Dreadnought where Spell Pierce could be left up to represent Stifle without losing tempo. Thoughtseize really helps fill the gap in disruption by also being a spell that doesn't require me to return my own lands.
2) Drop Delver and go with Scroll of Fate straight-up and a full set of Dreadnoughts. This makes the deck considerably slower and changes the emphasis that Stifle has from being land disruption to just a combo enabler.
EDIT: Regarding Arclight Shadow, I'm not really interested in doing that. I want 12/12's and 10/10's, the package to support Phoenix is just too big to jam into this.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
@ Mr. Safety: Totally get that you'd rather play 12/12s. Same for me tbh: just can't put those Dreadnoughts down, which is why I haven't tested the Arclight Shadow plan yet. But the package isn't as large or clunky as you might think and fits into the stock DS list pretty neatly (OUT: Street Wraiths, Reanimates, Anglers, shave 1-2 Daze/Force, cut the 2 extra counterspells (Stubby D / Force of N) IN: 4 Dark Rituals, 4 Buried Alive, 4 Phoenixes; use 2 Snuff Outs, 2 Gut Shots for removal (& T1 Freebird potential); then add 1-2 Preordains + 2 lands for the Wastelands. Red splash is for hardcast Birds and the usual sideboard staples only, so 2-3 red sources will do.) It's just a different variation of a similar jank (Delver-Shadow on crack) that might just be synergistic enough to work. I agree with what I think @Fox said somewhere: Street Wraith is the weakest link in DS, so that's where experimentation should start.
I like the Stifle idea too, though; early Shadow lists used to run that before settling on the current build. What if you went down to 2 Dreadnoughts and added like a Pteramander + a Lazav and just run it as a super lean tempo version of Shadow? I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Lazav here: he goes super well with both your main monsters.
Thanks for the input! I appreciate the explanation of the Phoenix plan.
I really think that the other weak point in the general Dreadnought plan is Daze. If I Daze t1 without a Delver or t2 without a Confidant or Dreadnought combo, it sets me back a full turn. I think I can still play a similar tempo plan with Thoughtseize + Spell Pierce, which puts me back a turn on the combo but still allows me to make land drops/utilize Wasteland without also returning an Island for Daze. I think a mix of Spell Pierce and Force of Negation could replace the Dazes and still be on-plan. Lotus Petal offsets this mana bottleneck but at the cost of either precious disruption or threats (Delver would be the only place to cut.)
Considering the prevalence of Dark Depths, I think I need to jam a maindeck Vapor Snag as well (especially if I decide to play Dark Confidant over Street Wraith.) Sideboard Brazen Borrowers should be fine as additional Marit Lage tech but having a way to deal with it maindeck seems smart. I have (1) precious maindeck slot available currently, which was going to be a Reanimate. Without Wraiths I think that Reanimate slot should be something else.
Regarding Snuff Out: I think if I end up back on Street Wraiths it is definitely the removal of choice. Until then Dismember is easier to manage my life total alongside Dark Confidant. Bob should feed me more land drops to play it for 1,2, or 3 mana and I can decide how to adjust it given availability of Shadow or current game state.
EDIT: Not sure how Winter Orb fits into this plan anymore, or at all. I don't think its a bad option, but not sure how effective it is as a singleton. I think with Confidant/Thoughtseize I should be ok against the control decks (grixis/4C and Miracles.) That slot could be a ton of other options; I'm leaning towards Narset, Collective Brutality (Hymn is greedy given my mana-base), or another control deck tech. I'd love any suggestions from the community for rounding out the sideboard.
Current:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Bitterblossom
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Darkblast
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x OPEN (Flusterstorm, Blue Elemental Blast, Narset, Duress, Collective Brutality, Winter Orb, maybe even Standstill)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I'm already considering going to 2 Dreadnoughts, that's how many Gurmags people play in regular Shadow, but I don't think Lazav is worth it without a way to reliably get him in every game. In order to be truly redundant I would need a tutor of some kind. All of the ones that are playable in legacy are either non-synergistic (Infernal Tutor, Wishclaw Talisman) too much mana (Dark Petition, Beseech the Queen) or too situational (Entomb.)
Pteramander I don't think is good enough. I don't have room for more than 4 functional Delvers. Pteramander is much better in the mid-late game where I can play and activate the same turn; Death's Shadow already fills that role, in a much better way.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Green is a potential splash color for Berserk, Abrupt Decay, and Sylvan Library. If that happens I think Delver has to go in order to jam in the combo element of Berserk in favor of the 4th Dreadnought and to jam in Library x2.
So it would look like this:
-4 Delver
-1 Dismember
+1 Dreadnought
+1 Berserk
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Sylvan Library
Library would supercharge Shadows in a big way. The other consideration would be whether Bob or Wraith are better with the green version. Wraith is an unconditional draw, ensuring I get the draws I need to feed into combos. Bob would be an additional threat that could help offset the loss of Delver (Berserk can even have him hit for 4 if I need to get him off the table at low life.) Decay might replace Fatal Push instead of Dismember, not only to help against Chalice decks but also because Decay is more flexible but still overlaps in function.
I don't like the fragile mana-base it would create, but it might be worth it against Moon Stompy for the decays alone.
4x Wasteland
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Island
1x Swamp
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Interesting UB Delver list got good results in a Legacy MODO league, link below.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23570&d=363215&f=LE
Looking at that I can see a maindeck answer to Chalice with Brazen Borrower. I really like that idea, especially since it performed so well in my last test with mono-blue Dreadstill. At this point I have to really evaluate if Delver is the correct choice, and I'm leaning towards 'no'. I think developing my mana (and not having the Daze pinch) and instead jamming Dreadnoughts/Shadows/Bobs/Borrowers. It turns it into more of a mid-range deck, but that's ok with me.
I can't emphasize enough that Brazen Borrower is a really good tempo play that answers a lot of problems. The issue with Moon Stompy isn't that we can't play around Chalice/Moon, it's that we need to have interaction t0-1, either a Force of Will/Negation or be on the play with a Thoughtseize/Pierce. Now I think mulligans can get a little easier provided 1) I have access to a basic Island/Swamp and 2) I have access to Borrower/Bob as a t2 play. I've mentioned before that Moon Stompy tends to be pretty popular in my local metagame, so I think having a maindeck way to handle Chalice is important.
New list to test:
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Death’s Shadow
3x Dark Confidant
2x Brazen Borrower
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
2x Spell PIerce
4x Force of Will
1x Force of Negation
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
4x Thoughtseize
1x Spell Snare
1x Torpor Orb
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x Marsh Flats
3x Watery Grave
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
This also opens up a couple sideboard slots for other options. Torpor Orb will help with enabling the 4th Dreadnought, and I'm definitely leaning more towards Dreadstill with a more compact threat package. Without Delvers t1 decisions get a lot easier; I can leave up mana for Stifle/Pierce/Snare, Push/Dismember/Brainstorm, or just play a t1 Ponder/Thoughtseize without feeling like I'm sacrificing tempo by not getting delver down t1. So this is essentially Dreadstill with Confidant instead of Standstill, Shadow instead of Delver, and Push/Thoughtseize instead of Bolts. I like it.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Because this is a combo deck (essentially) along with the fact that I've cut Daze, I am looking at these cards as well:
Lim-Dul's Vault
Rite of Consumption
Collective Brutality
If I end up with more than the current 2 drops I might have to up the land count to 20 (it's probably not a bad idea anyways.) Lim-Dul's Vault seems especially appealing, even if it doesn't actually put it into my hand. It's a way to close out games at instant speed with an unblocked Shadow (I can re-stack as many times as I want.) All 3 of those cards would be there specifically for ending games. Brutality provides reach, hand-based disruption, and removal. Rite of Consumption allows one hit from a 10/10 Shadow or Dreadnought to be lethal, all the while being a sacrifice outlet for Dark Confidant if I need it or a way to recoup life against narrow matchups (burn mostly.) Lim-Dul's Vault helps me assemble Stifle + Dreadnought, pays life to feed Death's Shadow, and is a good way to dig into the exact card I need to close out games (Shadow/Dreadnought/protection like Force/Thoughtseize.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I ended up dropping the LDV idea, it was just too conditional to be good. I worked in a couple of Hymns into the maindeck, which should be quite good as discard #5-6.
I'm testing it out a Creeping Tar Pit over the 2nd basic Island and I'm testing out Darkslick Shores as additional sources of U/B mana. I've used fastlands before in other decks to mild success. Once you hit land #4 it isn't as critical to come into play untapped and I already have 5 fetchable lands (3 WG/1 Island/1 Swamp) so it should be fine. Coming into play tapped shouldn't hurt me too often, especially considering I'm firmly in the mid-range category with Bobs/Hymns/Borrowers.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
So I was contemplating Snapcaster Mage in the sideboard and it struck me that Death's Shadow doesn't need to be a fast tempo deck. I'm trying to jam Dreadnoughts for a fast combo finish but it may be better to just jam Snapcasters/Hymns/Jace/LilianaTLH. Shadow is a perfectly fine finisher that rewards you for the lifeloss while accruing card advantage. I might even go with maindeck Bitterblossom alondside the PW's and really push the control plan.
The issue for UB, as has always been the case, is how to deal with resolved permanents. Discard and counterspells do a hell of a job, but opposing interaction can squash that. Ratchet Bomb, and to a smaller extent Brazen Borrower and other bounce spells, are fine in most cases but not all.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Once you do that you turn into worse Czech Pile derivative. You’ll eventually start to cut creatures for Strix/Ice-Fang and then need Decay for CB, just like we saw happen in Czech times. That’s the problem with Czech-style decks, you can’t get ahead in the meta by doing the same things, just worse. Bitterblossom is going to run into irrecoverable issues when Oko turns Strix/Ice-Fang into 3/3s - this is a massive change in terms of their ability to clock you vs previous iterations.
Among the more important things you could do against them is challenge their GY, and about the best card for that is Ashiok (which can also crush their opening hand’s Fetches). I’d be much more keen on investigating Dark Rit builds now, given how horrible the Hymn meta is going to be for your deck. Question is what else are you doing with Rit/how are you trading it in for a different card. Outlets are Last Hope, Bob/Seize, others?? The Rit gambit is really bad, but I don’t think you can really get by without it in the imminent meta.
That's good feedback, thanks. I'll stick to Dreadnought for now. I don't have any real Hymn to Tourach decks in my metagame, but that may change as the format adapts to W6 getting the axe. I do like the Ashiok suggestion, it's definitely an avenue.
IIRC, Czech Pile decks were sideboarding Bitterblossoms already so that isn't an issue. They would be on the same tech. I don't see how that's an issue against Oko when it's either 1) pressuring Oko with 1/1 flyers or 2) getting turned into a 3/3 elk to pressure Oko. The difference will be whether they can resolve/keep blockers or deal with the 3/3's. I think Oko gets a lot worse now that W6 isn't distracting attention, but I may be wrong. I'm also not overly concerned about one card (Oko) in the Legacy metagame. My metagame will pounce on Death and Taxes like crazy, it's always been popular here.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I love the idea, but it's a different approach. There is already a fairly established Grixis Phoenix deck for legacy, which is much more optimized to utilize that as a threat. I think it could be wildly fun to do that alongside shocklands/Street Wraith/Shadow, but I don't know how good it would be. For now, I think Dark Ritual being card disadvantage I think it will be left alone. I'm already trying to leverage Bob/Hymn to recoup Stifle/Dreadnought and Force of Will card disadvantage. I can afford one combo, but not 2. The combo I already have wins me the game within 2 turns; Dark Ritual into PW/disruption/Bob doesn't do it as quickly.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've been jamming the mid-range list in the OP for a little while, just goldfishing, and it feels good. I probably have 20 test games under my belt. Now I'm going to try the Delver/Daze/Wraith route and see if it works out a little better. For whatever reason, I'm finding I am always full of Dreadnoughts in hand without an enabler even though I play 5 enablers. I think it's time to drop down to 3 Dreadnoughts and jam in another cantrip or other disruption. I'm thinking maybe a Spell Snare, or maybe try out the 1-off Lim-Dul's Vault (which I know looks better than it functions.)
Here is the Delver list for testing:
4x Delver
4x Shadow
4x Wraith
3x Dreadnought
4x Stifle
4x Bstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
18x lands
Hymn will become a sideboard card x2, not sure about Spell Pierce yet.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I have found the optimal number of enablers to be 2:1. That tally of enablers can include recursive cards like JVP/SCM, though I only assign a value of 0.5 to each one.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
How's that Delver/Daze/Wraith version working out for you?
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