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Thread: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

  1. #201

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I think the idea behind Legacy is more popular than the format itself. There is a reason that Modern and Pioneer were created, after all.



    You are missing the whole point - Legacy is not designed to appeal to new players, and honestly that would not be something you want because it would take a ridiculous amount of bans to sculpt Legacy to mimic the feel of Standard so it could appeal to them. (Wizards has the advantage of market research, so they know what their customers actually want. Whether or not they can consistently deliver is another matter, because Standard has been pretty bad for a while.) Better to let Standard appeal to new players, and then some of them will have interest in other formats eventually.
    I got the whole point and I completely understand your POV. If thatís what it takes, then it needs to be done - thatís exactly what Iíve been saying. Something, anything, needs to be done to revive these formats and entice newer players into them. Otherwise, they will just rot away.

    Canít stand by for that.

  2. #202

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    I think wotc let something good get away from them. It was once a popular format with players. And they could have targeted masters sets towards legacy too.

  3. #203
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by ed06288 View Post
    It was once a popular format with players.
    Correction: Legacy is a popular format and has plenty of players. Star City Games gave the format a boost, but the format was well-established before then. Almost every single year I've been playing Legacy, people have bemoaned, "Legacy is dying," and it's been really tiresome and hasn't ever been true.

    I would love to see the Reserved List eliminated, but it probably won't be.

  4. #204
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post

    I would love to see the Reserved List eliminated, but it probably won't be.
    I would like WoTC to allow Legacy tournaments to proxy 12 cards orso per player, that would keep the reserved list intact, new ppl can play the format, and they can quickly swap over to another deck if they desire to do so with proxies.

    People that have legacy decks wont mind, and they in return can try out some stuff they haven't tried before (You wanna run that Abyss, Moat, Nether Void, Candelabra you always dreamed off? Go for it, your only missing Tabernacle for lands ? Well no worries) Also makes it so if a new card explodes in price (Wrenn) people don't have to shelf out cash asap to keep their decks up to date (something im running into thats getting harder as I have 15+ decks irl)
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  5. #205

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    Correction: Legacy is a popular format and has plenty of players. Star City Games gave the format a boost, but the format was well-established before then. Almost every single year I've been playing Legacy, people have bemoaned, "Legacy is dying," and it's been really tiresome and hasn't ever been true.

    I would love to see the Reserved List eliminated, but it probably won't be.
    Sounds about right. Have a beer!

  6. #206

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Emurian View Post
    I would like WoTC to allow Legacy tournaments to proxy 12 cards orso per player, that would keep the reserved list intact, new ppl can play the format, and they can quickly swap over to another deck if they desire to do so with proxies.

    People that have legacy decks wont mind, and they in return can try out some stuff they haven't tried before (You wanna run that Abyss, Moat, Nether Void, Candelabra you always dreamed off? Go for it, your only missing Tabernacle for lands ? Well no worries) Also makes it so if a new card explodes in price (Wrenn) people don't have to shelf out cash asap to keep their decks up to date (something im running into thats getting harder as I have 15+ decks irl)
    I would prefer something like this rather than abolishing the reserve list. I'm happy to play in tournaments where proxies are allowed even though I wouldn't use them myself, even the whole deck being proxied is ok with me.

  7. #207
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Allowing proxies in sanctioned tournaments would potentially lead to players requesting this for other formats, asking for more proxies, risking to wither trust in value of cards on a deeper level than the abolishment of the reserved list represents. Note that the potential is enough for wotc to try to avoid this.

    Well, that's clearly just my view on it.

  8. #208

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Allowing proxies in sanctioned tournaments would potentially lead to players requesting this for other formats, asking for more proxies, risking to wither trust in value of cards on a deeper level than the abolishment of the reserved list represents. Note that the potential is enough for wotc to try to avoid this.

    Well, that's clearly just my view on it.
    Maybe. I guess they could limit it to RL cards so it wouldn't be relevant to other formats.

    I mean, eventually those Chinese forgeries are going to get so good it will be hard to tell the difference anyway...

  9. #209
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Yeah, counterfeits becoming indistinguishable from authentic cards is one of a couple of ways to make the RL less of a financial bottleneck for entry into the format.

  10. #210

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Emurian View Post
    I would like WoTC to allow Legacy tournaments to proxy 12 cards orso per player, that would keep the reserved list intact, new ppl can play the format, and they can quickly swap over to another deck if they desire to do so with proxies.
    I think there's even less chance of this than of WoTC abolishing the Reserve List. FWIW, the biggest change that could realistically be made now would be to allow Gold-Bordered cards in tournament play (both WC & CED/CEI). All of these sets are officially WOTC produced, and double-faced cards eliminated the argument that "cards need to have a Magic back".

  11. #211
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Older players will remember that SCG used to support Vintage tournaments. They eventually had to eliminate support for them. Pete did not issue any explanation at the time, as Ben has done for us, but I am certain that barrier to entry was a significant component of the decision.

    We can learn some lessons from this history. Almost no one runs Vintage tournaments anymore, besides WotC and Ray Robillard. It would be fair to say that the format died out, but it is not necessarily fair to blame SCG for that, either as the proximate cause, or by holding them responsible for supporting non-profitable formats. They saw an opportunity to make money from dealing very rare and expensive Magic cards, and they took that, until the market dried up. They are a business, after all, and we are fortunate that they actually care about and like the game they are selling cards from.

    However, in my opinion, Legacy is not going to become dormant the way Vintage did. As much as I loved Vintage, Legacy reached higher heights of balance, diversity, and competitiveness, and it does have more accessible options for play (although it is difficult to call them "Budget" anymore). Partially based on the lessons we learned from Vintage, Legacy evolved and grew differently. Legacy has a much wider playerbase, and there will always be some demand for the format. Vintage players went through our Dark Ages a long time ago. It is now up to the players to self-organize, self-promote, and come up with our own way to play the game. For exmaple, proxies are easier to make and much higher quality than they used to be, and I have seen this option already implemented at many stores.

    I am sure that many players already noticed over the years the increased difficulty of getting new players into the format, and increased difficulty of getting consistently high attendance at local tournaments. My stories about the rapidly inflating value of my collection went from humorous to counter-productive when I realized that, just like Ben pointed out, the staples of our beloved format are simply as out of reach as Moxen were during the heyday of Vintage. My advice to Legacy players, based on my decades of playing Eternal Magic, is to come to terms with the permanence of the reserved list, and work around it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post
    I think there's even less chance of this than of WoTC abolishing the Reserve List. FWIW, the biggest change that could realistically be made now would be to allow Gold-Bordered cards in tournament play (both WC & CED/CEI). All of these sets are officially WOTC produced, and double-faced cards eliminated the argument that "cards need to have a Magic back".
    Hi Ben. I would just like to thank you for coming to our forum and giving us your thoughts, even though you have no obligation to do that. I hope you and other SCG staff will continue to participate in the community on social media.

  12. #212

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post
    I think there's even less chance of this than of WoTC abolishing the Reserve List. FWIW, the biggest change that could realistically be made now would be to allow Gold-Bordered cards in tournament play (both WC & CED/CEI). All of these sets are officially WOTC produced, and double-faced cards eliminated the argument that "cards need to have a Magic back".
    Thank you so much Ben for contributing!! I actually respect you and star city for just putting the truth out there! I emailed Mark R. based off a twitter post he made asking him to forward the idea of Wizards banning the reserve list from Commander as that was the only thing I could think of that could at least keep life support going for the format I've loved for so many years!! I've traveled to star city events all over the eastern U.S. for years to play in Legacy and will continue to say nothing but great things about that company and the support they gave Legacy players!!

    Thank you again for contributing to this thread and the overall discussion!

  13. #213
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    So almost 1600 people for legacy in Bologna, quite a signal!

  14. #214

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
    So almost 1600 people for legacy in Bologna, quite a signal!
    Not really a signal, it is very intentional for major Legacy events to be sparse which leads to greater attendance.

  15. #215

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by TnA_Will View Post
    Thank you so much Ben for contributing!! I actually respect you and star city for just putting the truth out there! I emailed Mark R. based off a twitter post he made asking him to forward the idea of Wizards banning the reserve list from Commander as that was the only thing I could think of that could at least keep life support going for the format I've loved for so many years!! I've traveled to star city events all over the eastern U.S. for years to play in Legacy and will continue to say nothing but great things about that company and the support they gave Legacy players!!

    Thank you again for contributing to this thread and the overall discussion!
    If you want Reserved List stuff banned in Commander, you need to convince the Rules Committee, who are a group independent of WOTC. Post on the rules forum here about it.

    I'll save you some time, though. There's little to no chance the RC, Wizards and stores like SCG would risk pissing off the massive EDH fanbase just for a harebrained scheme that might monkey paw Legacy to life for a short period of time.

    The only answer is to abolish the Reserved List.
    Last edited by kirkusjones; 12-01-2019 at 12:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    It's like arguing your way out of a speeding ticket by saying "it's not like I'm wearing oven mitts, officer."
    Twenty Kavus and a Dream is NOT a Legacy deck.

  16. #216
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Not really a signal, it is very intentional for major Legacy events to be sparse which leads to greater attendance.
    I disagree. I've read "legacy is dead" a million times now. Dead formats don't get 1600 people together.

  17. #217
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Not really a signal, it is very intentional for major Legacy events to be sparse which leads to greater attendance.
    Just to be clear, by 'sparse' you mean 'not occurring frequently'? I would agree with that premise, considering there are very few official Legacy events that happen anymore. Most are grassroots local events like 1-2K's.
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  18. #218

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
    I disagree. I've read "legacy is dead" a million times now. Dead formats don't get 1600 people together.
    Entirely possible when the major event frequency is low enough that the format fans can build up anticipation for one of the few opportunities to play in one.

    Modern will be facing a similar reality soon enough, Legacy has institutional advantages that Modern does not.

  19. #219
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Modern will be facing a similar reality soon enough, Legacy has institutional advantages that Modern does not.
    How do you mean? Like we're used to being "dead" so we're less phased when there aren't biweekly SCG main events?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  20. #220

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    How do you mean? Like we're used to being "dead" so we're less phased when there aren't biweekly SCG main events?
    Legacy has the big advantage of providing the unique play experience that Legacy players want.

    To most Modern players, however, a format that lacks color diversity does not appeal. As it turns out, many of those players moved to Pioneer, hoping that it has both color diversity and strategic diversity, the latter which Modern is relatively lacking at the moment. Since it does not have an inherent advantage like Legacy does, this will cause Modern to lose out unless Pioneer ultimately fails at its objectives.

    The biggest advantage Modern has is that it is more accessible than Legacy (which matters for Team Trios events, although I would not be surprised if they replaced Modern with a Limited format at some point, or even a custom Cube if that was feasible) but that alone is barely an advantage when Pioneer has the exact same benefit plus has more innate potential.

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