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Thread: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

  1. #161
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Just a notion I had, which might have already been obvious to others, but here goes:

    WOTC can't control the supply of legacy RL cards, they only have power to affect demand. Recently what they have been doing is printing cards that have made huge waves in all formats (War of the Spark, Modern Horizons, Throne of Eldraine.) This puts energy into eternal formats like Modern and Legacy. They are now trying to balance that out by starting new formats to take attention away from those formats, in some effort to control demand for the RL cards that are needed for Legacy. Wizards is trying to somehow add new cards to the pool, which has a peripheral effect to eternal formats, while at the same time trying to encourage players to play other formats. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.

    1) "We can't print more RL cards to make Legacy more accessible."
    2) "We can make the format less enticing by making other formats for people to play." (*cough* Pioneer)
    3) "Hopefully this balances out demand for RL cards because people are using the newer cards in our newer formats."
    4) "Eventually, we hope RL cards drop in price for the people that actually want to play Legacy."
    5) "We don't expect Legacy to actually grow as a format, but maintain a level of interest that is strong enough to keep it as a format"

    We can say all day long that Pioneer is designed so people can use outmoded cards from Standard's past, but it will also have the effect of pulling the resources/energy away from Legacy (which has a different card pool demand, for the most part.) They are pushing so much new shit that they are hoping all the old shit drops in relevance, in order to make the old shit more affordable for the stable base of people that want to play it. No growth, no shrinking, stable.
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  2. #162

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    The onus is on and should always be on anyone who wants to have Legacy around as a format. I'm pretty sure players of said format fall into that category.
    I disagree, not that there isn't any onus on the players to build their communities, but wizards knows that they need to also have a hand in it if they want the game to grow and continue to be profitable. This is why they run the mythic championship, provide fnm prizes, invented the dci, ECT.

  3. #163

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    The onus is on and should always be on anyone who wants to have Legacy around as a format. I'm pretty sure players of said format fall into that category.
    Completely disagree. Legacy players have been for *years* notorious for making long road trips to what few events there were in a given calendar year. You can go to any mom and pop LGS or large retailer and play in a Modern or Standard tournament - probably more than once a week. Legacy players don't have that luxury, and are lucky if they can get - in some places - eight people to fire an event off. That is, in my mind, a completely artificial situation created by Wizards by keeping the Reserved list intact and restricting (economically speaking) newer players from playing in these formats - which is mind-boggling amounts of stupid because they're (Legacy and Vintage) officially constructed formats that have existed for decades.

    But that responsibility shouldn't completely fall on their (our) shoulders. Wizards should give the format more support in a variety of ways and make it more financially accessible to newer players and open the player base exponentially. The key is this: these are real formats that Wizards made and they exist and have existed for many, many years. The problem is that their system of management involves gross negligence with these formats, which is why people circle the wagon with the same arguments over and over again and just let things be.

    That's why change is needed.

  4. #164

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Just a notion I had, which might have already been obvious to others, but here goes:

    WOTC can't control the supply of legacy RL cards, they only have power to affect demand. Recently what they have been doing is printing cards that have made huge waves in all formats (War of the Spark, Modern Horizons, Throne of Eldraine.) This puts energy into eternal formats like Modern and Legacy. They are now trying to balance that out by starting new formats to take attention away from those formats, in some effort to control demand for the RL cards that are needed for Legacy.
    The problem you aren't taking into account is Wizards promotion of Commander which happens to use and according to Star City have massively contributed to the spike in Legacy and Vintage cards... If wizards was really trying to do this they would ban all reserve list cards from Commander.

  5. #165

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by TnA_Will View Post
    The problem you aren't taking into account is Wizards promotion of Commander which happens to use and according to Star City have massively contributed to the spike in Legacy and Vintage cards... If wizards was really trying to do this they would ban all reserve list cards from Commander.
    Or they could ban cards on the Reserved List for Legacy. What in the hell would that format look like?!

  6. #166

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Thing about the RL is, it can be considered totally irrelevant for community-organised events. I used to play at a London monthly tournament that allowed proxies and it was generally well attended, and they gave out prizes of format staples including dual lands. It was a great way to do it IMO. Anyone can play any deck due to proxies and you could win stuff to allow you to play sanctioned.

    But sanctioned is maybe where the problem lies, especially regarding WotC. WotC's official events don't allow proxies, but in the main the prizes are lame and not legacy-relevant (prize tix you'll exchange for standard booster boxes and sell on ebay) or maybe they do a GP but those have a heavily topended prize structure. I feel like if WotC is going to insist you play with real cards then they should at least offer some sort of prize structure for legacy events that befits the format and recognises the fact that the decks are an expensive investment. That way people might feel more willing to stump up the cash for them knowing they will have chances to win decent prizes.

  7. #167

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Completely disagree. Legacy players have been for *years* notorious for making long road trips to what few events there were in a given calendar year. You can go to any mom and pop LGS or large retailer and play in a Modern or Standard tournament - probably more than once a week. Legacy players don't have that luxury, and are lucky if they can get - in some places - eight people to fire an event off. That is, in my mind, a completely artificial situation created by Wizards by keeping the Reserved list intact and restricting (economically speaking) newer players from playing in these formats - which is mind-boggling amounts of stupid because they're (Legacy and Vintage) officially constructed formats that have existed for decades.

    But that responsibility shouldn't completely fall on their (our) shoulders. Wizards should give the format more support in a variety of ways and make it more financially accessible to newer players and open the player base exponentially. The key is this: these are real formats that Wizards made and they exist and have existed for many, many years. The problem is that their system of management involves gross negligence with these formats, which is why people circle the wagon with the same arguments over and over again and just let things be.

    That's why change is needed.
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The Reserved List isn't going anywhere unless it's financial beneficial for WotC. Abolishing it would devalue so many collections and the stock of the stores that sell Wizards' product and host their tournaments, pissing off a ton of people and creating a shitstorm that they'd have to clean up as well as possible legal repercussions just for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (and Commander, to be fair) players that I can't see it happening. They have formats that make money. They don't need to dig up the decomposing corpses of Vintage and Legacy to bring in players.

    I agree that the responsibility of keeping Legacy around shouldn't fall completely on the shoulders of the players, but if it's not bringing in money and Wizards gradually stops supporting the format then who is left?

  8. #168

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    I agree that the responsibility of keeping Legacy around shouldn't fall completely on the shoulders of the players, but if it's not bringing in money and Wizards gradually stops supporting the format then who is left?
    I believe it is bringing in money into Wizards and has brought in money hand over fist the past couple years.... My argument for this is commander and the master editions and chase "hidden treasures"... Seriously without Commander allowing cards like Force of Will and other eternal(Legacy/Vintage) staples do we really think that Legacy and Vintage players would have pushed the sales of Eternal Masters so ridiculously high, or was it people who play commander chasing after cards that were eternal staples...

    I honestly believe Wizards helped to create the "dying" formats with the inclusion of cards into Commander and the promotion of it as a format in whole. Maybe we as a community should go to trying Legacy events as our own thing and keep banned lists community driven? In all honesty there are a lot of cards that are currently banned that I personally do not need to be.

  9. #169
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by TnA_Will View Post
    The problem you aren't taking into account is Wizards promotion of Commander which happens to use and according to Star City have massively contributed to the spike in Legacy and Vintage cards... If wizards was really trying to do this they would ban all reserve list cards from Commander.
    That's a good point, one I missed. I think this is another thing that they can't control, honestly. Didn't Commander start as a grass-roots format among players a long time before WOTC recognized/promoted it? That is similar to how legacy was started, IIRC.
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  10. #170

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    That's a good point, one I missed. I think this is another thing that they can't control, honestly. Didn't Commander start as a grass-roots format among players a long time before WOTC recognized/promoted it? That is similar to how legacy was started, IIRC.
    Kinda but not really... Legacy was a format that Wizards created and just called something else and it "became" Legacy with name changes. I've been playing since 1994 and this was the original "Legacy" format.... https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-15-2002-03-25

  11. #171

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by TnA_Will View Post
    I believe it is bringing in money into Wizards and has brought in money hand over fist the past couple years.... My argument for this is commander and the master editions and chase "hidden treasures"... Seriously without Commander allowing cards like Force of Will and other eternal(Legacy/Vintage) staples do we really think that Legacy and Vintage players would have pushed the sales of Eternal Masters so ridiculously high, or was it people who play commander chasing after cards that were eternal staples...

    I honestly believe Wizards helped to create the "dying" formats with the inclusion of cards into Commander and the promotion of it as a format in whole. Maybe we as a community should go to trying Legacy events as our own thing and keep banned lists community driven? In all honesty there are a lot of cards that are currently banned that I personally do not need to be.
    Right, Legacy itself hasn't been bring in as much money as Legacy legal cards have due to Commander.

    I don't know if making the banlist community driven is a good decision (although I could certainly see Mind Twist coming off). As far as organizing events goes though, I can't really see any other option at this point.

  12. #172

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The Reserved List isn't going anywhere unless it's financial beneficial for WotC. Abolishing it would devalue so many collections and the stock of the stores that sell Wizards' product and host their tournaments, pissing off a ton of people and creating a shitstorm that they'd have to clean up as well as possible legal repercussions just for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (and Commander, to be fair) players that I can't see it happening. They have formats that make money. They don't need to dig up the decomposing corpses of Vintage and Legacy to bring in players.

    I agree that the responsibility of keeping Legacy around shouldn't fall completely on the shoulders of the players, but if it's not bringing in money and Wizards gradually stops supporting the format then who is left?
    Right, but you’re missing the point. The point is that if these formats are Wizards-supported and EXIST, and the stigma is that they’re effectively useless because they’re “dying,” then either fix it to get more players in, or defunct them and get it over with. Don’t put the onus on players to wonder or gamble if they can get to eight people. Confidence and format spectacle brings asses to events. The point is that no other formats have this problem, which is a problem - just Legacy and Vintage.

    That’s the point of this discussion.

  13. #173

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Right, but you’re missing the point. The point is that if these formats are Wizards-supported and EXIST, and the stigma is that they’re effectively useless because they’re “dying,” then either fix it to get more players in, or defunct them and get it over with. Don’t put the onus on players to wonder or gamble if they can get to eight people. Confidence and format spectacle brings asses to events. The point is that no other formats have this problem, which is a problem - just Legacy and Vintage.

    That’s the point of this discussion.
    I'm not missing the point. If a format exists but it's not profitable to Wizards, they might not see a financial incentive to "fix" it or to deal with it at all beyond the ban list. But if they "defunct" it, it will be seen as an obvious slight to players. RL cards will sell to Commander players regardless of the existence or Wizards' support of Legacy or Vintage. I definitely agree that confidence and spectacle put asses in seats, but how much money do they actually make WotC?

    Personally, I think that supporting Vintage and Legacy is a good move for Wizards, if only for the spectacle value. Still, without an active community, this won't matter much.

  14. #174

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The Reserved List isn't going anywhere unless it's financial beneficial for WotC.
    It would be financially beneficial for WOTC as long as the revenue from new ex-RL products outweighs any community backlash (legal or otherwise)

    Abolishing it would devalue so many collections and the stock of the stores that sell Wizards' product and host their tournaments, pissing off a ton of people and creating a shitstorm that they'd have to clean up as well as possible legal repercussions just for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (and Commander, to be fair) players that I can't see it happening.
    It would also make a ton of people (i.e. 99% of people in this and similar communities) happy that their favourite formats become more accessible and more widely played, commander players get dual lands for cheaper, stores potentially get a new product to sell that's extremely popular, etc

    They have formats that make money. They don't need to dig up the decomposing corpses of Vintage and Legacy to bring in players.
    "They're already making money. Why would they want to make more money?" good one lol

  15. #175

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    It would be financially beneficial for WOTC as long as the revenue from new ex-RL products outweighs any community backlash (legal or otherwise)


    It would also make a ton of people (i.e. 99% of people in this and similar communities) happy that their favourite formats become more accessible and more widely played, commander players get dual lands for cheaper, stores potentially get a new product to sell that's extremely popular, etc


    "They're already making money. Why would they want to make more money?" good one lol
    You're not actually saying anything here. You're vaguely outlining potential benefits without addressing the drawbacks.

  16. #176
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    It would also make a ton of people (i.e. 99% of people in this and similar communities) happy that their favourite formats become more accessible and more widely played, commander players get dual lands for cheaper, stores potentially get a new product to sell that's extremely popular, etc
    If Masters sets are any sort of benchmark, reprinting eternal-playable cards is a golden goose for WOTC. If they abolish the reserved list and commit to reprinting eternal staples that were previously unavailable you will see a certifiable stampede of players marching into Legacy and maybe even Vintage.

    My opinion is that for paper magic, the best solution is to abolish the reserved list. Digital is already super affordable for Legacy when compared to paper. It's a question of whether WOTC wants their product to continue being played in paper forever or to eventually switch over to pure digital. If they switch over to just digital in the future, the reserved list is meaningless. This is the central question for WOTC, which also explains why they are constantly experimenting with new names/ideas for tournaments (Pro Tour, Mythic Championship, Magic-fest, etc.) One thing that I believe really boosted paper magic was the constructed team trio events (Standard/Modern/Legacy). From what I saw, everyone loved seeing Legacy at that level of play.
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  17. #177

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    If Masters sets are any sort of benchmark, reprinting eternal-playable cards is a golden goose for WOTC. If they abolish the reserved list and commit to reprinting eternal staples that were previously unavailable you will see a certifiable stampede of players marching into Legacy and maybe even Vintage.
    They also had to stop printing masters sets though, so it's possible that ship has sailed.
    My opinion is that for paper magic, the best solution is to abolish the reserved list. Digital is already super affordable for Legacy when compared to paper.
    That isn't really saying much.

  18. #178

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    I'm not missing the point. If a format exists but it's not profitable to Wizards, they might not see a financial incentive to "fix" it or to deal with it at all beyond the ban list. But if they "defunct" it, it will be seen as an obvious slight to players. RL cards will sell to Commander players regardless of the existence or Wizards' support of Legacy or Vintage. I definitely agree that confidence and spectacle put asses in seats, but how much money do they actually make WotC?

    Personally, I think that supporting Vintage and Legacy is a good move for Wizards, if only for the spectacle value. Still, without an active community, this won't matter much.
    That's exactly the problem.

    Legacy and Vintage are perceived as formats that are inaccessible due to obvious price and barrier of entry costs. That is literally what's killing both of those formats, but the true culprit is the Reserved List (and to a lesser extent Wizards showcasing these formats). My point is that they are official formats. But they are clearly put on the shelf in favor of other formats like Standard, Modern and Pioneer. That's the part that's unacceptable. These formats should have equal footing from a support perspective and be economically feasible for newer players to play. That's the whole crux of this discussion, thread and situation.

    The fact that someone new that would want to play in these formats can't play simply because they check the price of the most popular cards in those formats and sees an absolutely egregious price tag coupled with no support from the top is incredibly unattractive. But that's not the player's fault - that's Wizards' fault because the player has the intent to want to play - but can't afford the ridiculous price tag for the cards. The only way to foster a larger community is to make the formats accessible. And if they don't see these formats as accessible or profitable without destroying the RL or making drastic changes, then just get it over with and end them because clearly that's what everyone sees coming anyhow.

  19. #179
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    They also had to stop printing masters sets though, so it's possible that ship has sailed.
    They just did a quasi-masters set with Modern Horizons, which included a ton of reprints for eternal formats. Call it whatever you want, they will continue to reprint eternal playable cards. Mixing it with new cards like this makes it a better prospect after exhausting the reprints-only model that wasn't selling masters sets. They didn't *have* to stop printing masters sets; they chose to stop because it wasn't a workable model anymore.
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  20. #180
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    That isn't really saying much.
    I edited my response. The question for WOTC is paper vs digital, not RL or no-RL. That's the root of the issue.
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