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Thread: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

  1. #61

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by JDK View Post
    Or you know, we as Magic players could boycott MTG until the reserved list gets axed...but that's like telling crack addicts to stop consuming.
    At this point might as well jusy play unsanctioned proxy and ef the reserved list.
    Its not like wizards will come yo your house and tear up the proxies. Nor is there a bunch of support where shit needs to be sanctioned. Isnt it what vintage?

  2. #62

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by itslarryyo View Post
    At this point might as well jusy play unsanctioned proxy and ef the reserved list.
    Its not like wizards will come yo your house and tear up the proxies. Nor is there a bunch of support where shit needs to be sanctioned. Isnt it what vintage?
    Yup we do this, works very well. Printed proxies r required. 40+ people per month.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  3. #63
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Wow, I can't imagine how one might come to a notion that somehow SCG has a moral and/or ethical duty to run Legacy events.

    Even, I, a generally anti-business person, can't even fathom the sense of entitlement from which such a stance.

    The real problem isn't SCG, or the reserve list, rather it's this entitled sense, where playing Legacy for the sake of playing Legacy just isn't good enough for some of you. Local 8 mans? Not good enough. Store credit? Not good enough. Guess what? Then Legacy isn't "good enough" for you.

    Lets just be real frank about it. If your local community players only come out when some big prize is on the line, then your local community sucks. If you only come out when some big prize is on the line, then you are the exact reason why that community is in the state that it's in. You want to know why Legacy, then, is dying where you are at? Look in the mirror. Not at SCG.

    You pine for some corporate savior, when out of the other side of your mouth you say how terrible and bad those companies are. You say, "LOL, forums dead now" as if that flag doesn't keep getting ran up the pole and yet, not only is it still here, but you are still here proclaiming it's death.

    If you think this forum is dead, do everyone a favor and prove it by taking your low-quality posts somewhere else. If you think Legacy is dead because your local isn't good enough for you, do us all a favor and actually go sell your collection to someone who is interested in growing and maintaining a local community, who actually does want to play Legacy for the sake of playing Legacy.

    Why won't SCG support Legacy? Funny, it's the same reason why the talking heads here who are so critical of SCG won't. But, yeah, it's SCG that's the problem. How dare SCG not subsidize your shitty behavior!

    Do everyone a favor. Get away from the keyboard. Go out and buy a mirror. And then take a good look at yourself.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  4. #64

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    If the calendar shows six Legacy Opens, then people will just play more Legacy. This is really about the RL and duals. Everything else is really affordable, for the most part.
    We ran Legacy Opens for a decade. This hasn't been true for the past five years (fully half of that time). Why would this turn around now?

  5. #65
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Here is my positive take on the state. I am positive by nature, and I think most people have a negative mindset which tends to overweigh in the discussion. Just like when the London Mulligan was introduced, remember, and any previous change in the game's history - some people who have trouble dealing with change get scared and start telling everyone about their worries, which are overwhelmingly negative [edit: ok, a lot of it is well-founded, but still]. I'm just overwhelmingly positive so consider my post in relation to that. Take it with a grain of salt! :)

    Also, I don't have much time to structure this post, so sorry if it's a bit unpolished and rambling in places, got to get back to work asap. I just thought there were too many perspectives missing in the discussion.

    Edit: I thought this was the thread "the demise of magic", maybe should have posted there but noticed too late. Anyway, I think they are close enough that this is still relevant.

    Good things

    Legacy as a format, from a play-experience perspective, is in a good state, a small ban will bring it back to what many considered the best it's ever been about 6 months ago. And many experienced magic players seem to think that Legacy is the most interesting and rewarding format to play [edit: I keep hearing this even by commentators on Standard and Modern streams].

    Magic as a card game is experiencing a boom, I believe, with a new inflow of players from Arena and a new format that bridges the gap between Standard and eternal formats. As the inflow of players to the game and the flow of players from Standard to eternal formats is improved, this makes for an improved flow of new players into Legacy.

    So far, so good.

    Bad things
    The problems from the legacy perspective are the reserved list preventing growth and with a new format this old format gets a bit less attention. Let's consider these challenges for a few seconds. Let's break those [two] things down, quickly.

    The reserved list is losing some relevance with recent printings. This trend will continue.

    A) duals are less necessary with printings such as Fabled Passage, and to a higher degree Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista. We still haven't seen what these cards can do, since a certain crucible of worlds-planeswalker is playing games with the format.

    B) New cards are even replacing old cards from the reserved-list by altering their functionality, see Deep Forest Hermit and Collector Ouphe, and

    C) there are new powerful cards that widen the range of powerful cards in a way that opens up for strategies that don't depend on reserved list cards (Narset, Teferi, Oko, Echo of Eons, Urza - many fit in category B as well). New, or old, cards like Death's Shadow can also open up reasons to play painlands or other non-reserved list cards. With WotC's recent power creep jump this becomes much more impactful. Several archetypes run fully without RL cards (I'll just mention DnT and Shadow, but I think there are more and also it's an area that can be explored). Edit: We're even getting a range of fetchable alternatives to OG-duals, at any point WotC could choose to include a full replacement with some balancing effect to a Commander-product.

    D) If there is a price decrease because of people selling out of Legacy (only small effect likely since EDH drives prices), because of a coming recession or anything, this may make investors more wary of investing in these cards which makes them more accessible to players. So even a price drop would probably be a good thing for the format. Edit: on this topic, I wouldn't be surprised to see a reversed effect of the supposed influx of BitCoin-money from 2018 as those investors start getting rid of their cards, but that's just very loose speculation.

    And regarding the new format:
    The current new format Pioneer is getting a lot of attention. Like I mentioned above, I see it as a bridge from Standard into eternal formats. This will probably cause a short-term drop in legacy attendance, and all other formats, since people try this new format out. This is a net positive for the game, and it seems very pessimistic to believe this will ruin other formats, the closest formats Standard and Modern will probably lose some, but again, this will make Magic playable for more people as I think a lot of Standard players get burned by cards becoming useless every other year. As the format stabilizes it will be less exciting, I'm sure it will be fun and keep seeing play, but Legacy and formerly Extended have been my favorite format for the past 20-ish years and I don't see super-standard changing this any long-term way, it just offers a bit more variation, and I expect most Legacy players will stay with the format. Again, it will just create a bridge for bringing standard players into Pioneer and then further into Modern and then Legacy as they notice what the different formats have to offer.

    What to do
    - Support content creators that you appreciate. Become a content creator if you wish. Engage, or keep engaging, with the format you like.
    - Attend tournaments that you appreciate, especially the SCG convention that Ben Bleiweiss mentioned above, also Legacy GP's, LGS tournament and other 3rd party tournaments like MCM in Europe, Hareruya in Japan or the Leaving a Legacy tournaments in the USA. Edit: and remember that interacting with other people is the main point of this game, even if I think it's the best game that I've played by far. Edit: and as Wrath of Pie mentions in the next comment, MTGO is working great, no RL problems there.
    - If you have more than one deck, offer to lend it out to people in your surrounding area. Tell them. [edit: consider making necessary arrangements in order not to get burned, setup rules that you are comfortable with]
    - Host local tournaments yourself if you wish. Edit: allowing proxies is one avenue to making this work, letting anyone join in the fun. This also allows you to run events with your own banlist, letting people try new or old fun and crazy things.
    - Keep an eye open for budget decks, for yourself or to recommend to new players. Contribute to the resources that exist on this topic.
    - Don't keep obsessing over how the format is dying, it's not dying and it won't die because you say so, but saying so surely won't help [edit: to be clear, say what you want, I don't mind, just giving some perspective on negative comments, they are not all, here's a positive comment]. Not that it really matters much. A few players sell out of cards, prices drop, new people join. Hopefully prices of legacy staples stay low, enabling more people to join. But I'm not sure if that's even likely.

  6. #66

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    I think having a vibrant MTGO scene is going to be very important in the future, because the cards are far more affordable on that medium compared to paper and even with all the disadvantages it has it is hard to compete with being able to play on your schedule via leagues.

    When I can read about Vintage every week on MTGGoldfish and not Legacy, that is a huge impediment to Legacy.

  7. #67

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Here is my positive take on the state. I am positive by nature, and I think most people have a negative mindset which tends to overweigh in the discussion. Just like when the London Mulligan was introduced, remember, and any previous change in the game's history - some people who have trouble dealing with change get scared and start telling everyone about their worries, which are overwhelmingly negative. I'm just overwhelmingly positive so consider my post in relation to that. Take it with a grain of salt! :)

    Also, I don't have much time to structure this post, so sorry if it's a bit unpolished and rambling in places, got to get back to work asap. I just thought there were too many perspective missing in the discussion.

    Good things

    Legacy as a format, from a play-experience perspective, is in a good state, a small ban will bring it back to what many considered the best it's ever been about 6 months ago. And many experienced magic players seem to think that Legacy is the most interesting and rewarding format to play.

    Magic as a card game is experiencing a boom, I believe, with a new inflow of players from Arena and a new format that bridges the gap between Standard and eternal formats. As the inflow of players to the game and the flow of players from Standard to eternal formats is improved, this makes for an improved flow of new players into Legacy.

    So far, so good.

    The problems from the legacy perspective are the reserved list preventing growth and with a new format this old format gets a bit less attention. Let's consider these challenges for a few seconds. Let's break those two things down, quickly.

    Bad things
    The reserved list is losing some relevance with recent printings. This trend will continue.

    A) duals are less necessary with printings such as Fabled Passage, and to a higher degree Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista. We still haven't seen what these cards can do, since a certain crucible of worlds-planeswalker is playing games with the format.

    B) New cards are even replacing old cards from the reserved-list by altering their functionality, see Deep Forest Hermit and Collector Ouphe, and

    C) there are new powerful cards that widen the range of powerful cards in a way that opens up for strategies that don't depend on reserved list cards (Narset, Teferi, Oko, Echo of Eons, Urza - many fit in category B as well). New, or old, cards like Death's Shadow can also open up reasons to play painlands or other non-reserved list cards. With WotC's recent power creep jump this becomes much more impactful. Several archetypes run fully without RL cards (I'll just mention DnT and Shadow, but I think there are more and also it's an area that can be explored).

    D) If there is a price decrease because of people selling out of Legacy (only small effect likely since EDH drives prices), because of a coming recession or anything, this may make investors more weary of investing in these cards which makes them more accessible to players. So even a price drop would probably be a good thing for the format.

    E) The current new format Pioneer is getting a lot of attention. Like I mentioned above, I see it as a bridge from Standard into eternal formats. This will probably cause a short-term drop in legacy attendance, and all other formats, since people try this new format out. This is a net positive for the game, and it seems very pessimistic to belive this will ruin other formats, the closest formats Standard and Modern will probably lose some, but again, this will make Magic playable for more people as I think a lot of Standard players get burned by cards becoming useless every other year. As the format stabilizes it will be less exciting, I'm sure it will be fun and keep seeing play, but Legacy and formerly Extended have been my favorit format for the past 20-ish years and I don't see super-standard changing this any long-term way, it just offers a bit more variation, and I expect most Legacy players will stay with the format. Again, it will just create bridge for bringing standard players into Pioneer and then further into Modern and then Legacy as they notice what the different formats have to offer.

    What to do
    - Support content creators that you appreciate. Become a content creator if you wish. Engage, or keep engaging, with the format you like.
    - Attend tournaments that you appreciate, especially the SCG convention that Ben Bleiweiss mentioned above, also Legacy GP's, LGS tournament and other 3rd party tournaments like MCM in Europe, Hareruya in Japan or the Leaving a Legacy tournaments in the USA.
    - If you have more than one deck, offer to lend it out to people in your surrounding area. Tell them.
    - Host local tournaments yourself if you wish.
    - Keep an eye open for budget decks, for yourself or to recommend to new players. Contribute to the resources that exist on this topic.
    - Don't keep obessessing over how the format is dying, it's not dying and it won't die because you say so, but saying so surely won't help. Not that it really matters much. A few players sell out of cards, prices drop, new people join. Hopefully prices of legacy staples stay low, enabling more people to join. But I'm not sure if that's even likely.
    I can see what your points are, but I still don't believe the onus is on players to "keep a format afloat." This has been the problem with Legacy for years. It's always the brick and mortar or LGSs trying to push the format locally when a few folks ask them to run events or show up to play. I get one's civic duty, but why should that onus fall on Legacy players as opposed to Standard and Modern players who don't need to worry about that problem? That's not fair at all, regardless of "price barrier."

    If these formats are officially sanctioned constructed formats by WOTC/Hasbro, then why the hell are we supposed to get off our asses to do their job for them? Why are they just left in the shadows with public perception that they're always "dying" and kept barely alive? My point is that if everyone believes that these formats are "dying" - then Wizards needs to end them now as opposed to drawing this out.

    Or...end the RL and no one would need to worry about Legacy “firing” at locals. Something needs to be done.

  8. #68
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I can see what your points are, but I still don't believe the onus is on players to "keep a format afloat." This has been the problem with Legacy for years. It's always the brick and mortar or LGSs trying to push the format locally when a few folks ask them to run events or show up to play. I get one's civic duty, but why should that onus fall on Legacy players as opposed to Standard and Modern players who don't need to worry about that problem? That's not fair at all, regardless of "price barrier."

    If these formats are officially sanctioned constructed formats by WOTC/Hasbro, then why the hell are we supposed to get off our asses to do their job for them? Why are they just left in the shadows with public perception that they're always "dying" and kept barely alive? My point is that if everyone believes that these formats are "dying" - then Wizards needs to end them now as opposed to drawing this out.

    Or...end the RL and no one would need to worry about Legacy “firing” at locals. Something needs to be done.
    I'll try to keep this short (third attempt now). This is what might happen.

    Legacy needs some short-term stimulation, it will do fine, the community will survive and be fun, great and healthy. WotC needed to focus most of their resources on Arena, their number one strategic challenge. It seems to be paying off, perhaps, we'll see how it develops. New players join, and old players rejoin, it will spread also to Legacy, the best competitive format perhaps. 3rd party actors can benefit from Legacy events and the secondary market. Later, WotC can divide resources and put some more towards older formats. A thriving online product gives them more financial muscles. Stimulating the wider game, or the eco-system around the game, is good for the game, so it's good for them.

    They may not need to abolish the reserved list, just continue making it more optional to use it. Perhaps. Everything in this post is very much perhaps.
    Edit: I just remember another factor that challenges the reserved list. Will add to above post. High quality proxies/fakes/counterfeits also have a lowering effect on prices. I'm not saying I like them, but they do challenge high RL prices. Suppose there were indistinguishable fakes, what would a dual then be worth? The value would drop significantly, WotC might not be able to do something about it, and suddenly the price barrier from entry into Legacy is gone.

    And I agree with Wrath of Pie on MTGO, added a comment.

  9. #69
    bruizar
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I can see what your points are, but I still don't believe the onus is on players to "keep a format afloat." This has been the problem with Legacy for years. It's always the brick and mortar or LGSs trying to push the format locally when a few folks ask them to run events or show up to play. I get one's civic duty, but why should that onus fall on Legacy players as opposed to Standard and Modern players who don't need to worry about that problem? That's not fair at all, regardless of "price barrier."

    If these formats are officially sanctioned constructed formats by WOTC/Hasbro, then why the hell are we supposed to get off our asses to do their job for them? Why are they just left in the shadows with public perception that they're always "dying" and kept barely alive? My point is that if everyone believes that these formats are "dying" - then Wizards needs to end them now as opposed to drawing this out.

    Or...end the RL and no one would need to worry about Legacy “firing” at locals. Something needs to be done.
    IMO the best thing that can be done is change the format from Legacy to Trinity.
    1) The reserved list _will_ _not_ _go_ _away_ _ever_ because of promissory estoppel.
    2) Legalizing CE/IE used to be an option for many years, but CE/IE has become incredibly expensive as well due to Old School.
    3) Legacy is 40% more expensive than Trinity , and Trinity preserves archetypes we all love while opening new avenues for innovation.

  10. #70

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    IMO the best thing that can be done is change the format from Legacy to Trinity.
    1) The reserved list _will_ _not_ _go_ _away_ _ever_ because of promissory estoppel.
    2) Legalizing CE/IE used to be an option for many years, but CE/IE has become incredibly expensive as well due to Old School.
    3) Trinity is 40% more expensive than Trinity, and Trinity preserves archetypes we all love while opening new avenues for innovation.
    Just for clarification (and hilarity): Is it possible to sue to get them to abolish it? I mean, if collectors are saying they'll sue, can players do the same?

  11. #71
    bruizar
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Just for clarification (and hilarity): Is it possible to sue to get them to abolish it? I mean, if collectors are saying they'll sue, can players do the same?
    Perhaps someone could make a case for creating a foundation that handles the official management of eternal (vintage/legacy) to stop the negligence and mismanagement of these game formats, since they have said repeatedly that they do not test for vintage and legacy, and they have also outsourced the judge program to third party. WOTC could license out the intellectual property of reserved list game assets.

    This way, that third party company could reprint reserved list cards, such that WOTC won't be breaking the reserved list, but the third party company would, which gives WOTC an out to the reserved list promise. That's as creative as I can think of a solution, but it probably won't happen.

  12. #72

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Perhaps someone could make a case for creating a foundation that handles the official eternal rules (vintage/legacy) to stop the negligence and mismanagement of these game formats, since they have said repeatedly that they do not test for vintage and legacy, and they have also outsourced the judge program to third party.
    It's intriguing, because I truly wonder if litigation would be the way forward. Everyone just keeps saying collectors would sue, but 1.) There's no real merit to that, because no collector I know of or heard of has come forward caring enough to say they would sue and actually follow through, and 2.) Even if that were the case, one would assume that if collectors could sue, players could do the same via class-action to force them to make that change.

  13. #73

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    1) The reserved list _will_ _not_ _go_ _away_ _ever_ because of promissory estoppel.
    This is stated as fact, but it's not a fact. It's the THREAT of a lawsuit (using Promissory Estoppel) that keeps the reserve list from being abolished. If HASBRO felt that the cost (both in litigation fees and community will) was worth it, the Reserve List would be gone tomorrow. In this case, the cost of successfully litigating a potential lawsuit is probably more costly than the money made from reprinting the cards. I believe this is the only reason the Reserve List hasn't been abolished (it's not financially salubrious).

  14. #74

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    IMO the best thing that can be done is change the format from Legacy to Trinity.
    1) The reserved list _will_ _not_ _go_ _away_ _ever_ because of promissory estoppel.
    Ok, legal eagle, explain my foil Dreadnoughts.

  15. #75

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Just for clarification (and hilarity): Is it possible to sue to get them to abolish it? I mean, if collectors are saying they'll sue, can players do the same?
    Yes, as you can sue anyone for anything if you can offer up an explanation for how it's damaging you.
    Winning? Highly Doubtful.

  16. #76

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Yes, as you can sue anyone for anything if you can offer up an explanation for how it's damaging you.
    Winning? Highly Doubtful.
    There has to be a way around it. A collector can't just sue just because they collect Magic cards. A judge would probably laugh that out of court, because there's no way to quantify loss or damage - those cards could stay the same in value or possibly increase.

  17. #77
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post
    This is stated as fact, but it's not a fact. It's the THREAT of a lawsuit (using Promissory Estoppel) that keeps the reserve list from being abolished. If HASBRO felt that the cost (both in litigation fees and community will) was worth it, the Reserve List would be gone tomorrow. In this case, the cost of successfully litigating a potential lawsuit is probably more costly than the money made from reprinting the cards. I believe this is the only reason the Reserve List hasn't been abolished (it's not financially salubrious).
    I've said this for years. Not to mention there is a facile manner to circumvent it that the list itself, being that they are free to sell the IP to any company they want, who is then not bound to any promises made by Wizards. Likely even a shell-corporation of Hasbro itself likely works fine.

    But indeed, that still plays into the threat of lawsuit. And like you say, it's still not a great financial endeavor. Standard and Limited legal sets are the cash-cows.



    Also, the notion that engaging, building and maintaining a local scene is "Wizard's job" or "SCG's job" is, well, I don't have any words (that won't get me banned) for what it is. It's quite humorous to see what mental hoops people will jump through to avoid the cognitive dissonance of failing to take on personal responsibility. Imagine thinking that a company should take on the financial burden of subsidizing your anti-community, profit-driven preferences. It's pretty ironic, people complaining that they'll only personally go where the money is, but will blast Wizards or SCG for doing the same. Like I said, some people should invest a mirror. How dare Wizards have there be a format and not throw money at me to play it!
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  18. #78

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I've said this for years. Not to mention there is a facile manner to circumvent it that the list itself, being that they are free to sell the IP to any company they want, who is then not bound to any promises made by Wizards. Likely even a shell-corporation of Hasbro itself likely works fine.

    But indeed, that still plays into the threat of lawsuit. And like you say, it's still not a great financial endeavor. Standard and Limited legal sets are the cash-cows.



    Also, the notion that engaging, building and maintaining a local scene is "Wizard's job" or "SCG's job" is, well, I don't have any words (that won't get me banned) for what it is. It's quite humorous to see what mental hoops people will jump through to avoid the cognitive dissonance of failing to take on personal responsibility. Imagine thinking that a company should take on the financial burden of subsidizing your anti-community, profit-driven preferences. It's pretty ironic, people complaining that they'll only personally go where the money is, but will blast Wizards or SCG for doing the same. Like I said, some people should invest a mirror. How dare Wizards have there be a format and not throw money at me to play it!
    Threatening legal action for what? Wizards/Hasbro own the list, they can do whatever they want to with it. This is one time where "going back on their word" is congruent with changing of the times.

    I'm quite certain if the Constitution of the United States of America can receive amendments, so can a Magic: the Gathering Reserved List.

  19. #79

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Threatening legal action for what? Wizards/Hasbro own the list, they can do whatever they want to with it. This is one time where "going back on their word" is congruent with changing of the times.

    I'm quite certain if the Constitution of the United States of America can receive amendments, so can a Magic: the Gathering Reserved List.
    It has already, several times. https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Reserved_List

  20. #80

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post
    It has already, several times. https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Reserved_List
    Yeah Ben, but I'm talking about more adjustments to break the issues that its causing Legacy and Vintage as it relates to today and beyond. Because nothing behind 2003 is really ever going to see competitive play again if this continues. There has to be a way around it.

    People for years have talking about the threat of litigation if they abolish it. My question is: What power do players yield, since technically they're collectors, too?

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