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Thread: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

  1. #221
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    I'm pretty sure WOTC wanted Modern to replace Extended, but it has been plagued with the same problems of that old format: constantly broken. It has had it's moments of healthy metagames, but generally it will always cycle into an unhealthy one given enough time. Pioneer is their cold re-restart, hoping to make an Extended that doesn't need constant watching. They have been fast and furious with bannings, but that will slow down eventually I think. I can see the possibility, if small, that it isn't Legacy that dies because of Pioneer, but Modern. Modern has had an identity crisis since it's inception, something I don't think Pioneer will have.

    To be slightly reductionist:

    1) Vintage = all the broken shit, some of it restricted, the P9 format
    2) Legacy = most of the broken shit, the Brainstorm format
    3) Modern = lots of almost-broken shit, the socially awkward middle-child between Legacy and Standard, the 'go fast or go home' format
    4) Standard = play the best shit available, the 'good stuff' format
    5) Pioneer = play the best shit available but with a bigger card pool, the 'cool new kid' format

    Who do you think gets left behind in this scenario? I don't think it's Legacy. Pioneer seems like an attempt to bridge the growing chasm between Standard and Modern, something that Modern tried to do between Legacy and Standard. However, without cards rotating out of Modern (like Extended did back in the day) it will always be an awkward bridge between Standard and Legacy. There is a fairly dedicated Legacy community, one that puts up local events all the time. I don't know if Modern has that sort of support structure if it loses steam and Pioneer ends up being the Pro-player format of choice instead. My gut tells me the Modern community is leagues away from being as strong as the Legacy community.

    The craziest part is I don't think they are done yet. In another 5 years there will need to be another format, one that bridges Pioneer with Standard. At that point you can go with the Geico method, skip the middle-men and get into Legacy for a truly eternal format. The extinction of a weaker format is Legacy's gain.
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  2. #222
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    The craziest part is I don't think they are done yet. In another 5 years there will need to be another format, one that bridges Pioneer with Standard. At that point you can go with the Geico method, skip the middle-men and get into Legacy for a truly eternal format. The extinction of a weaker format is Legacy's gain.
    Of course, you are realizing that the "true" nature of larger formats are not expensive realms of diversity, but rather is constrictive and, generally, homogenous.

    It was pretty easy to see this throwing of the baby out with the bathwater would happen to Modern. It just happened sooner than I, or most people, expected. It will happen with Pioneer, naturally.

    If you want a sandbox format, where anything is possible, you need to actively and persistently cull anything and everything at the top of "playability." We've already seen this happen in Pioneer, where several cards had to be culled pretty immediately. Now, the format is still working out what is, or is not, viable, and as even marginally more powerful cards come to populate the format, the realm of "viability" will be constricted and look ever more and more homogenous, until "disrupted" either by a ban, or by a powerful new printing.
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  3. #223

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    The OP and this thread in general are basically out of commission. I've been looking on social media and places elsewhere, and it looks like Legacy is turbo-charged with tournaments popping up everywhere I'm able to find.

    And most of these places I'm seeing are taking pot shots at SCG for dumping Legacy. These places are picking it up hardcore.

    And FWIW since everyone knows, GP: Bologna put up almost 1600 people for Legacy. I mean, WOTC can suck on that - even though it doesn't matter.

  4. #224
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Of course, you are realizing that the "true" nature of larger formats are not expensive realms of diversity, but rather is constrictive and, generally, homogenous.
    Oh for sure, the bigger card pool of legacy doesn't really provide diversity. It condenses the metagame to the most successful/viable strategies. I was assuming that 'eternal' players don't generally like to be 'stifled' by a smaller card pool, even if the reduced card pool still results in the same amount of diversity (or even less!) I could be way off, but that's what I am like. Pioneer doesn't appeal to me, everything is a mad libs rather than a real deck. More powerful than standard? Yes, for sure. As interesting as Legacy, or even Modern? Nah, not to me. It makes me want to dive deeper into legacy actually, and say 'fuck all' to both Modern and Pioneer.

    It was pretty easy to see this throwing of the baby out with the bathwater would happen to Modern. It just happened sooner than I, or most people, expected. It will happen with Pioneer, naturally.
    It wasn't obvious to my peanut brain; I thought the format that would die off would be Legacy. Now I have to come to grips with the fact that Pioneer, in which I have no interest, might help save Legacy, which I love. Rather than graduating to Modern people might graduate to Legacy, hopefully with a good dose of community-driven good will that Legacy is known for.
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  5. #225
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Oh for sure, the bigger card pool of legacy doesn't really provide diversity. It condenses down, reducing the metagame to the most successful/viable strategies. I was assuming that 'eternal' players don't generally like to be 'stifled' by a smaller card pool, even if the larger card pool still results in the same amount of diversity (or even less!) I could be way off, but that's what I am like. Pioneer doesn't appeal to me, everything is a mad libs rather than a real deck. More powerful than standard? Yes, for sure. As interesting as Legacy, or even Modern? Nah, not to me. It makes me want to dive deeper into legacy actually, and say 'fuck all' to both Modern and Pioneer.
    But I think you can see how that there are many, many people here who simply do not understand this. While larger card pools are constrictive, it is only to "some" degree or other. What does that mean? The key is that it isn't derivative of some "average" power level of the cards in the format, it is directly relational to the absolute, individual power level of particular cards. Then, to make it more complicated, the "viability" of those cards further related to the synergistic interplay of those cards and then further to the relational metagame considerations (i.e. exploitability, or "fragility" and so on).

    Legacy is deep, but that depth is not "equal." There are minimal power level and synergistic "requirements" that will be forced on you, in a competitive field, by the consistent, synergistic nature of "known" archetypes. In the old days, you often had the "clear" litmus test of Goblins, notably, Goblin Lackey, where if you could not really beat that, you really had to question if you had a real (i.e. competitive) Legacy deck. Of course, in those days, people wailed too, gnashed teeth, even demanded the ban of Lackey. Just like they, in the past, demanded the ban of 'Goyf.

    Legacy is diverse, in the sense of possibility, not competitive viability. The larger the pool, the more plausibly playable cards there are, but it is a case of severely diminishing returns. This is because Wizards does not (cannot and will not) simply print "superior" cards in every case. The vast majority of cards are simply not good. Which means the ones that are, show up that much more frequently. And will, more so, over time, because almost no one looks for inspiration on what to buy, build and play from the last place finishers, but rather the top X finishers. This isn't just self-referential either, there is, in the long-term, likely real advantage to those cards/strategies.

    I don't, personally, go in for other formats, mostly because low-power formats aren't interesting to me. I don't want to play low-power duals when I could play higher power ones. I don't want to play dopey cantrips when I could play good ones. It just doesn't particularly interest me. Vintage and Legacy, with a side of EDH is all I really care about, if and when I can choose what to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It wasn't obvious to my peanut brain; I thought the format that would die off would be Legacy. Now I have to come to grips with the fact that Pioneer, in which I have no interest, might help save Legacy, which I love. Rather than graduating to Modern people might graduate to Legacy, hopefully with a good dose of community-driven good will that Legacy is known for.
    I don't know that it will happen though. One, duals are expensive. Two, people, even if the cost isn't an actual barrier, just aren't as interested in Legacy as they claim they'd be otherwise. There is lots to learn and as we all know, particular cards/strategies are basal power-level setters in a way that tends to bother people. We really don't need people to come in and wail about how "Brainstorm is OP, plz ban" for the millionth time.

    But, maybe it works out, who knows. In reality, people will likely cling to the thing they simply just like, no matter what, for "reasons." Modern won't be dead, it will just become more sparsely played.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  6. #226

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    The OP and this thread in general are basically out of commission. I've been looking on social media and places elsewhere, and it looks like Legacy is turbo-charged with tournaments popping up everywhere I'm able to find.

    And most of these places I'm seeing are taking pot shots at SCG for dumping Legacy. These places are picking it up hardcore.
    The real question is whether or not that can be maintained.

  7. #227

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Legacy before SCGs picked it up was huge in the Northeast.

  8. #228

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Legacy before SCGs picked it up was huge in the Northeast.
    That was without the existence of Modern and Pioneer, and pretty sure it was before Commander was relevant.

    Granted, the players who like Legacy really like Legacy, but there is a reason that Legacy is better off not being a format with constant major events.

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