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Thread: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

  1. #21

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Yeah it got automodded for some reason. It's up now :)

  2. #22
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    That's okay. Legacy is still super healthy in my area. We have monthlies...3x weeklies and some huge tournies every couple of months (2k-5k). SCG has been distancing themself from Legacy for some time not surprised to see this change. Maybe this will make staples more available to access
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  3. #23
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    To me, the largest loss will be the semi-regular SCG coverage of Legacy. SCG has the best rigs and the best commentary team in Cedric and Patrick, so although Legacy will continue on elsewhere, it won't be delivered on video the same way, and I will miss that.

  4. #24

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    To me, the largest loss will be the semi-regular SCG coverage of Legacy. SCG has the best rigs and the best commentary team in Cedric and Patrick, so although Legacy will continue on elsewhere, it won't be delivered on video the same way, and I will miss that.
    Yes, I don't think other formats except for vintage are as exciting to watch. Maybe Cedric and Patrick can give commentary on Eternal Weekend or the MCM tour. The quality of European commentators is really subpar compared to what these guys deliver, but the tournaments itself are spectacular.

    Man, I miss the old Bazaar of Moxen tournaments :-)

  5. #25
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    What I really wonder: if prices on Legacy staples have increased by factor 10 during the last 10 years (as stated by Ben Bleiweiss), doesn't this mean that the player pool has increased as well?
    I know Commander thrives prices as well, but isn't it paradox that the Legacy player pool (== demand) shrinks, while the prices increase dramatically?
    Supply should hardly shrink, I guess, unless people burn their cards.
    So, only judging from the card prices of Legacy staples, one would think Legacy would attract more players than a decade ago.

    Btw.: Does this affect the European/Asian Legacy scene as well? AFAIK SCG is only active in US.

  6. #26
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by sco0ter View Post
    What I really wonder: if prices on Legacy staples have increased by factor 10 during the last 10 years (as stated by Ben Bleiweiss), doesn't this mean that the player pool has increased as well?
    I know Commander thrives prices as well, but isn't it paradox that the Legacy player pool (== demand) shrinks, while the prices increase dramatically?
    Supply should hardly shrink, I guess, unless people burn their cards.
    So, only judging from the card prices of Legacy staples, one would think Legacy would attract more players than a decade ago.

    Btw.: Does this affect the European/Asian Legacy scene as well? AFAIK SCG is only active in US.
    While that makes sense in a vacuum, in actuality, cards are often bought by speculators, collectors and, as you already pointed out, other market segments. Considering how inelastic supply is, no, it does not denote an appreciable rise in number of players.

    Also, keep in mind, none of us are getting younger. There is likely a growing segment of Legacy (and Eternal in general) players that, due to life events, simply are not able to make long trips for events or play in numerous events a month/year.

    While it is easy to take shots at SCG, it's a business. They have no deontological duty to Legacy. They will do what makes them money. The fact of the matter is, Standard, Pioneer, and Modern are simply more lucrative. Legacy has been and will continue, ever more so, to be in our, the players, hands, not in the hands of any company. Ben and SCG have pretty consistently gone to bat for Eternal, gone to bat against the Reserve List. They kept Legacy in as much as was likely financially feasible, really.

    Yet, people here want to take shots at him? Yeah, you know what, I think some people here probably should get labeled, but not Ben.
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  7. #27
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Also, keep in mind, none of us are getting younger. There is likely a growing segment of Legacy (and Eternal in general) players that, due to life events, simply are not able to make long trips for events or play in numerous events a month/year.
    So true... I am stilling sitting on my Legacy staples from the mid/late 2000's, always hoping to get to play them again, but the time does not allow any more (due to family).

  8. #28
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Yes, I don't think other formats except for vintage are as exciting to watch. Maybe Cedric and Patrick can give commentary on Eternal Weekend or the MCM tour
    I will chip in $50 to this idea of "literally anyone who isn't Randy doing EW coverage"
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    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

  9. #29

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post
    We are actually selling Dual Lands faster than we're getting them in.
    If this is the case, why would Legacy be dropped as a featured format for Opens/etc.? If cost were prohibitive, then selling Duals faster than you're buying them shouldn't be a factor. I don't think you guys, with all due respect, really understand or appreciate just how popular the format is. I think you have an idea, but it's extremely popular. Please don't let the word of mouth from the grinders alter your thoughts on this - because let's be honest: the playing field is far more level in a format as deep as Legacy (which is probably why some trash on it because it's challenging and the variance is a cashing factor). It has this stigma that it's "dying" or is "dead," - which has been the case for ten years - but it isn't, let's not kid ourselves. I've personally never been more excited to play Legacy than right now.

    Star City Games has a responsibility as the largest MTG retailer in the United States to their clientele to uphold the standard of all formats. This includes Legacy, and goes beyond the business portion of the company. Think "Miracle on the 34th Street" - sending customers to other stores to get what they need. First, the Legacy Opens were chopped. Then again and again until it was "phased" out. Now, every non-reprinted card prior to 2003...is effectively unplayable. Why can't you guys just *try* it for a year and see what happens? I mean, even if the Legacy Open entry costs were upped to a higher dollar it still wouldn't matter - because people *want* to play Legacy on a bigger stage.

    What just baffles me is that there really is a lot of support for Legacy across the country, but you guys just keep dropping it down the totem pole. I honestly wonder what would happen if Pete retracted and ADDED Legacy as the featured format for 2020 - I can almost guarantee that'd be a mega-hit. The barrier for entry into the format is as cheap as its ever been - people are running snow-basics all over the place for God's sake.

    You guys are legitimately the one vendor that has the power to revive or hurt the format. I just really, truly want to know why this is happening. And not some PR answer - I'm looking for a straight-shooter POV.
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  10. #30
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    I mean classics and such were getting smaller and smaller as far as I know. We can talk about how popular the format is all we want, but numbers and attendance speak for themselves. I tried as hard as I could in Atlanta to keep it going but it's dead here. Pioneer, modern, and just life has killed it.
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  11. #31

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I mean classics and such were getting smaller and smaller as far as I know. We can talk about how popular the format is all we want, but numbers and attendance speak for themselves. I tried as hard as I could in Atlanta to keep it going but it's dead here. Pioneer, modern, and just life has killed it.
    Has anyone actually had a public survey asking the Magic community what they want? Is this even possible? I mean, there's enough SCG articles every day, why can't one be put out asking if you would come out to play in a Legacy Open that's geographically feasible?

    Remember when SCG was doing Opens all the time (Legacy), and there were Eternal Extravaganzas and Jupiter Games NELCs? All of those other tournaments were happening really in part because SCG featured Legacy. All it has to do is feature it again and popularity will trickle again.
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  12. #32
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Legacy players don't buy dual lands.
    Commander player do. THAT is the popular format.
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  13. #33

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    If cost were prohibitive, then selling Duals faster than you're buying them shouldn't be a factor.
    As nicely as I can put this, I think you didn't read the entire sentence.

    Tomorrow, Im going to be raising our buy price (but not sell price) on Dual Lands because the Commander demand on these (and many other) Legacy cards far outpaces the supply that weve been getting in.
    Most Commander players need one copy of some (or even all) Dual Lands. The fact that demand/sales on Dual Lands to Commander players (at one-of) is far outpacing the demand/sales to Legacy Players (2-4 of) should tell you the disparity of overall demand on Magic Cards between Commander players and Legacy players.

  14. #34
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    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    I've said this before, but I guess I need to say it again, the notion of an Open or a Classic, or whatever, to be an end in-itself is very unlikely, in my estimation, as an actual source of realistic profit. So, thinking that SCG should be motivated solely by attendance is to miss the whole point. Now, I don't have access to SCG's P&L statements, but I seriously doubt that Legacy Opens or Classics are anywhere near as lucrative as Standard or Modern ones, let alone the unknown of Pioneer.

    Why? Because of the amount of supplemental revenue generated at these other events, the volume of cards that can be sold vs. single Duals or the like. Sure, they might be higher ticket items, but they don't move the way new stuff does, not to mention actual sealed product and so on.

    In reality, SCG was likely taking in less money, even at "bigger" Legacy events than a given Standard event. I can't prove that, but if it were the case that Legacy was so lucrative, are we to surmise that SCG decided to leave that money on the table? Not likely.
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  15. #35

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    I think that's just more upside growth potential in Pioneer singles than there is willing buyers in legacy.

    A card like Den Proteector can go from 15 cent to 15 dollar in no time.

  16. #36

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post
    As nicely as I can put this, I think you didn't read the entire sentence.

    Most Commander players need one copy of some (or even all) Dual Lands. The fact that demand/sales on Dual Lands to Commander players (at one-of) is far outpacing the demand/sales to Legacy Players (2-4 of) should tell you the disparity of overall demand on Magic Cards between Commander players and Legacy players.
    But how are you delineating from a Commander player from a Legacy player when they buy a dual from you online? Or anywhere, for that matter? Some Legacy decks need only one dual, or some players may only need one more dual for whatever reason - so just because someone buys one doesn't mean they're a Commander player.
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  17. #37

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    But how are you delineating from a Commander player from a Legacy player when they buy a dual from you online? Or anywhere, for that matter? Some Legacy decks need only one dual, or some players may only need one more dual for whatever reason - so just because someone buys one doesn't mean they're a Commander player.
    Four of vs one of.

  18. #38

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Four of vs one of.
    You're telling me everyone that goes on SCG's website to buy a dual is always buying four at a time?

    I just don't buy it. Here's the problem. Legacy has changed - and I think for the better, in a lot of ways. The issue is that with a limited number of Opens, you really can't say, "Well, Legacy wasn't successful because X players showed up." I mean, in Team Constructed, you were using Legacy, so if that's the case and Team Constructed was pulling good numbers, why eviscerate Legacy?

    My point is that I think Legacy needs more exposure. The Legacy of today is not the Legacy of 2015 or 2011 or 2008. It deserves a chance to be showcased, because there hasn't been a reinvestment with it - it was purposefully shanked slowly over the course of five years - ever since GP:NJ (which I don't care what anyone says - was one of the best and largest GPs in history with some of the most broken cards in history).

    I know places where Legacy outperforms Modern and Standard, straight-up. I was talking to someone at EW who told me in Texas they get 50-60 every Wednesday. Legacy is, IMO, the most fun format to watch and play because of how challenging it is and the interactions it has. Price shouldn't be an issue. Two of the most played decks in the format use what, two Bayous and the other a set of basic snow-lands?

    Come on.
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  19. #39

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    You're telling me everyone that goes on SCG's website to buy a dual is always buying four at a time?
    What you asked is how they would know, the answer is anyone buying more than one copy of any card in the same order pretty much tells you what format they bought for. If they buy one sea and two ponders, what is that order for? If they buy a handful of singletons, probable commander. If you take anything away from my post here it's that SCG is full of scumbags.

  20. #40

    Re: No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    What you asked is how they would know, the answer is anyone buying more than one copy of any card in the same order pretty much tells you what format they bought for. If they buy one sea and two ponders, what is that order for? If they buy a handful of singletons, probable commander. If you take anything away from my post here it's that SCG is full of scumbags.
    Yeah, but you still can't delineate why someone buys something for some reason. Just because someone buys a certain quantity doesn't mean anything. If they buy a handful of singletons, maybe they needed them to complete sets. That's too hard to tell. The real tell is in attendance. But seriously - if they would just HOST more Legacy events, they would see an increase in those numbers because people WANT to play Legacy.

    It's always been one of the stigmas I've hated about Legacy: "players are just more lazy or busy so they won't come out to the local." But if there's an Open in town, of course they'll go because, well, it's SCG. And when there's more Legacy Opens, the more people will practice for them. Which means higher local attendance. But if you push the usual crap like Standard and to a lesser extent Modern, of course those numbers will be supported at higher levels and attendance will be higher locally for those formats - not by choice - but because it's what they gearing towards doing well at because it's what's pushed at them.

    I get that WOTC has a hand in this, but this is SCG. There should be a push for Legacy because it has always gotten the shaft even though people consistently want to play it. You always hear people say "Legacy has the most devoted players." Well, it's because they are FORCED to play in what few tournaments (big ones) there are in a calendar year to play in!
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