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Thread: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

  1. #141
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    How dumb where you think "we can look up sales" and "tcg player doesn't have recent sales" are contradictory phrases?
    What a small world you live in where there's only one place to look up sales and no "show completed items only" option on your rendering of ebay dot com.
    First of all, this isn't 4chan. Secondly, you're literally saying that you didn't say what you said and that it didn't mean what it means.

    Be my guest if you're confident you can appraise any number of cards in any number of different conditions remotely based on extremely paltry current data and sparse [EDIT: and still quite varied] data from previous transactions. I'm done.
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  2. #142

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    You're also on a forum, and calling people names isn’t going to give you credibility or the ability to be taken seriously.
    Then put me on ignore.

  3. #143

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    First of all, this isn't 4chan. Secondly, you're literally saying that you didn't say what you said and that it didn't mean what it means.

    Be my guest if you're confident you can appraise any number of cards in any number of different conditions remotely based on extremely paltry current data and sparse [EDIT: and still quite varied] data from previous transactions. I'm done.
    Super confident because that's literally how appraisal works: thing sold for X, therefore thing is worth x. Normal people call that a market.

  4. #144
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Interestingly enough, the issue of valuation is one of the reasons corporations like wizards is predisposed to settle. Just to evaluate a single card you will have to go through depositions and expert testimony, and opposing testimony why the other expert was wrong and no instead you use this other valuation and then counter testimony and depositions, etc. Valuations are nightmares in litigation even when dealing with public markets like stocks. When dealing with a private market such a magic cards, dear god you will be arguing back and forth over whether your ebay sale set the price or you need to take the average of all such sales and which sales are in that segement, etc. In short you (the corproation) will have to pay so many lawyers and experts so much money just on this one issue. That is why for a corporation it is better to just side step this whole mess and settle. They just do the math (settlement < $billable hours*time expected to be spent on litigation). 9 times out of 10 settlement will be less.
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  5. #145

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Interestingly enough, the issue of valuation is one of the reasons corporations like wizards is predisposed to settle. Just to evaluate a single card you will have to go through depositions and expert testimony, and opposing testimony why the other expert was wrong and no instead you use this other valuation and then counter testimony and depositions, etc. Valuations are nightmares in litigation even when dealing with public markets like stocks. When dealing with a private market such a magic cards, dear god you will be arguing back and forth over whether your ebay sale set the price or you need to take the average of all such sales and which sales are in that segement, etc. In short you (the corproation) will have to pay so many lawyers and experts so much money just on this one issue. That is why for a corporation it is better to just side step this whole mess and settle. They just do the math (settlement < $billable hours*time expected to be spent on litigation). 9 times out of 10 settlement will be less.
    But to do that that have to value the time, which of course requires an evaluation on the value of the evaluation, which just kicks off an evaluation of the value of the evaluation...

  6. #146
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    But to do that that have to value the time, which of course requires an evaluation on the value of the evaluation, which just kicks off an evaluation of the value of the evaluation...
    I mean . . . the lawyers are pretty explicit about their billable rates
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  7. #147
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    I just watched a video from Rudy at Alpha Investments about recent RL card values dropping. One tid bit he threw out was the idea that LGSs sitting on inventory are having to (or need to consider) moving cards to keep up buying newer Magic products. With Wizards' recent release schedule it must be tough, especially for smaller stores to keep pace buying product.
    I thought it was an interesting point. Anyone else have thoughts if this may cause an appreciable effect on Eternal card prices?
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  8. #148

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke View Post
    I just watched a video from Rudy at Alpha Investments about recent RL card values dropping. One tid bit he threw out was the idea that LGSs sitting on inventory are having to (or need to consider) moving cards to keep up buying newer Magic products. With Wizards' recent release schedule it must be tough, especially for smaller stores to keep pace buying product.
    I thought it was an interesting point. Anyone else have thoughts if this may cause an appreciable effect on Eternal card prices?
    Makes sense. The comic book industry is going to shit so a lot of smaller shops might have to lower prices to buy into other areas (manga, board games?) or just to keep the lights on.

  9. #149

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    First of all, this isn't 4chan. Secondly, you're literally saying that you didn't say what you said and that it didn't mean what it means.

    Be my guest if you're confident you can appraise any number of cards in any number of different conditions remotely based on extremely paltry current data and sparse [EDIT: and still quite varied] data from previous transactions. I'm done.
    Even if we assume everything you say is correct, the fact that TCG doesn't make sales data publically available doesn't mean that data doesn't exist. In the context of a lawsuit such information can easily be obtained by subpoena.

    Furthermore, in this hypothetical lawsuit, the plaintiff will simply call an expert who can provide testimony on how cards are appraised, how there is an existing secondary market, etc..

    Everything you're writing in this thread just shows you are ignorant of basic notions of discovery and evidence in the legal system. You should probably refrain from taking such strong positions on things you don't understand even on a basic level.

  10. #150

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke View Post
    This 100%. People need to accept that the RL is not going anywhere. It's not worth it for WoTC to touch it. If Legacy needs "saving", there had to be a Plan B. Handle this at a community level. Have proxy tournaments, whatever. Save yourselves the mental anguish of hoping and dreaming for the RL fairy to wave the magic wand and destroy the List.
    I continue to believe the long-term way to save the "spirit" of Legacy (i.e. the metagame) is ironically through Modern Horizons. Deep Forest Hermit is exemplary of the fact that they are quite willing to push the limits of the reserve list to the brink. So all they have to do is:

    (1) reprint all of the non-RL cards in a MH set (e.g. BS, Daze, FoW, Wasteland, etc.);
    (2) create the Deep Forest Hermit versions for the important RL cards (e.g. LED); and
    (3) unban all of the cards that are now in line with the new power level of the format

    Under those conditions, suddenly the Modern metagame would be relatively the same as Legacy.

  11. #151
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Even if we assume everything you say is correct, the fact that TCG doesn't make sales data publically available doesn't mean that data doesn't exist. In the context of a lawsuit such information can easily be obtained by subpoena. . . . Everything you're writing in this thread just shows you are ignorant of basic notions of discovery and evidence in the legal system. You should probably refrain from taking such strong positions on things you don't understand even on a basic level.
    When the evidence shows that the ascribed value of an item varies by literal thousands of dollars depending on who's appraising it, that's not good for your case. And it's unlikely that this problem won't crop up in private data, too, even within a single organization. I don't see how I've shown ignorance of the discovery process; I actually pointed out that the data you and pals seem to think is so absolutely revelatory is really just a scatter-plot (with very few data points for many cards) in one of my first posts in this exchange. It's entirely possible that discovery would reveal internal communications from people at, e.g., TCGPlayer saying, "Don't buy/sell an Alpha Lotus for more/less than $X,000 regardless of its condition," but that doesn't build a case against WotC—it actually gives them an excuse to say that the price's being set by third parties is arbitrary and has nothing to do with their actions.

    (You'll notice I'm not bringing up whatever might come out of Wizards during the discovery phase, but that's because it's outside the scope of the point I was making about third-party vendors. It's entirely possible Wizards shot itself in the foot in internal communications.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Furthermore, in this hypothetical lawsuit, the plaintiff will simply call an expert who can provide testimony on how cards are appraised, how there is an existing secondary market, etc.
    And WotC can do exactly the same thing. Or they can just say, "We value the card at the appropriate fraction of the $10(?) MSRP for an Alpha starter deck" and shitcan the whole discussion. Or they can say, "We broke our promise in 1997. [That's fact, btw, not conjecture.] There is no reason to ascribe validity to a voided and hypothetical contract." Ultimately, it's up to the plaintiff's lawyers to prove that he or she is owed a specific sum, and that's a really steep hill to climb given how uncertain all the pricing is and that the company broke the promise that's claimed to be the basis of an unwritten contract literally 22 years ago.
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  12. #152
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    I continue to believe the long-term way to save the "spirit" of Legacy (i.e. the metagame) is ironically through Modern Horizons. Deep Forest Hermit is exemplary of the fact that they are quite willing to push the limits of the reserve list to the brink. So all they have to do is:

    (1) reprint all of the non-RL cards in a MH set (e.g. BS, Daze, FoW, Wasteland, etc.);
    (2) create the Deep Forest Hermit versions for the important RL cards (e.g. LED); and
    (3) unban all of the cards that are now in line with the new power level of the format

    Under those conditions, suddenly the Modern metagame would be relatively the same as Legacy.
    I disagree with this outlook. The spirit of Legacy isn't in casting FoW or Brainstorm, but in the idea that you can play with almost any card. It's finding that obscure niche card that hasn't seen the light of day in 20 years but is perfect for what you need that gives legacy it's spirit. No number of Modern Horizon style sets will ever give this to Modern.

    Realistically I think that the only thing WotC needs to do is print a fetchable single-opponent version of the Battlebond duals. The vast majority of the format would become very affordable overnight in a way that just saying "we've decided we may reprint these cards" won't do. Plus this will still leave the original promise intact, so collectors will still feel special owning their rare cards.

  13. #153

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    I disagree with this outlook. The spirit of Legacy isn't in casting FoW or Brainstorm, but in the idea that you can play with almost any card. It's finding that obscure niche card that hasn't seen the light of day in 20 years but is perfect for what you need that gives legacy it's spirit. No number of Modern Horizon style sets will ever give this to Modern.

    Realistically I think that the only thing WotC needs to do is print a fetchable single-opponent version of the Battlebond duals. The vast majority of the format would become very affordable overnight in a way that just saying "we've decided we may reprint these cards" won't do. Plus this will still leave the original promise intact, so collectors will still feel special owning their rare cards.
    Sinkhole!

  14. #154

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    I disagree with this outlook. The spirit of Legacy isn't in casting FoW or Brainstorm, but in the idea that you can play with almost any card. It's finding that obscure niche card that hasn't seen the light of day in 20 years but is perfect for what you need that gives legacy it's spirit. No number of Modern Horizon style sets will ever give this to Modern.

    Realistically I think that the only thing WotC needs to do is print a fetchable single-opponent version of the Battlebond duals. The vast majority of the format would become very affordable overnight in a way that just saying "we've decided we may reprint these cards" won't do. Plus this will still leave the original promise intact, so collectors will still feel special owning their rare cards.
    That's a fair point. I just don't see WOTC supporting Modern and Legacy long-term at this point with Pioneer and Historic in the picture. One of those formats will probably go by the wayside and my bet would be on Legacy. Maybe I'm wrong. And maybe it just means paper Legacy dies off and it continues to live on MTGO.

    I suppose irrespective of the Legacy conversation I would hope they do something to Modern to make it play more like Legacy because it frequently just feels like a format waiting for the next degeneracy to pop up without any self-regulation.

  15. #155
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    WOTC, realistically, can't ever actually remove formats from the game. Each represents a particular time-period of card availability. They can stop supporting it, but the momentum of playing a format for a long time will sustain it. Look at Vintage, which still has a die-hard community. WOTC will only ever add formats to the game, by necessity. Pioneer is an attempt to bridge Modern and Standard, just like Modern was an attempt to 'fix' Extended, which bridged Standard and Legacy. In 7-10 years there will be another format that bridges Pioneer with Standard, and so forth, ad nauseam. It is inevitable: WOTC won't support Legacy and Modern forever, outside of a banlist.

    I'm not saying I like the reserved list, I actually hate it. However, this trend of creating new formats and printing product to support those formats will be how it sustains it's business model. That doesn't mean Legacy or Modern are going away, it means that they will stabilize into a bandwidth of players that is reliant on their own contribution to the format to sustain it. I see what Leaving a Legacy is doing for Legacy in the northeast US and what the Legacy Pit is doing for events, which is driving interest into the format in a way that SCG used to do. Legacy is just too popular for it to die out, the community will take up the mantle.

    TL;DR - It's up to us to make Legacy what it's meant to be, WOTC will eventually stop supporting the format outside of a banlist.
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  16. #156

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    WOTC, realistically, can't ever actually remove formats from the game.
    Tell that to extended, prismatic, spiral star, or any other format removed that you've never heard of.

  17. #157
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Tell that to extended, prismatic, spiral star, or any other format removed that you've never heard of.
    If people wanted to still play extended, they could. Modern and Pioneer have functionally replaced them at the sanctioned level, but unsanctioned formats don't rely on WOTC.

    I think my post was pretty clear, the intent was to reinforce the idea that legacy doesn't need official WOTC support to survive. Stop being obtuse.
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  18. #158

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Tell that to extended, prismatic, spiral star, or any other format removed that you've never heard of.
    Yeah, Legacy doesn't have a WOTC sanctioned format waiting to replace it, and what would be the point anyway? The Reserved List isn't going anywhere so it's not like they could change it significantly.

    Legacy is not Extended. You're right that I haven't heard of the other two though.

  19. #159
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    So? Did this thread work?
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  20. #160

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    If people wanted to still play extended, they could. Modern and Pioneer have functionally replaced them at the sanctioned level, but unsanctioned formats don't rely on WOTC.

    I think my post was pretty clear, the intent was to reinforce the idea that legacy doesn't need official WOTC support to survive. Stop being obtuse.
    You can't actually because house rules aren't a format, and without official rules extended is just a house-rule game.
    Your post was pretty obtuse itself because the idea that a format doesn't need official rules to survive was demonstrated false by the counter-examples of all the defunct formats that lose their support.

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