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Thread: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

  1. #21

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Now you're talking about a whole different idea which is whether RL card prices will drop if the RL is abolished. Obviously if you don't have any tangible losses you won't be suing. But you are moving the goalposts from your original point:



    Plus its just nonsense to suggest reprints won't tank prices. Do you have any example of a reprint not lowering prices (at least in the short-term)?
    This move would be unprecedented. RL cards have been and already are tanking exponentially, if you’ve been following. If these hit unprecedented lows (which they have), in addition to this unprecedented would-be decision, how is there any way to determine the outcome? Underground Sea has NEVER been reprinted. Force of Will was - and the reprint is worth MORE than the original.

  2. #22
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Yet another attempt to abolish the Reserve List....? It's getting old.

    Last petition got 2571 signatures, let's see where this one is going.

  3. #23

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by sco0ter View Post
    Yet another attempt to abolish the Reserve List....? It's getting old.

    Last petition got 2571 signatures, let's see where this one is going.
    So, just so we’re clear: What exactly are you in favor of instead of belittling the efforts of others to entice change? Can you share?

  4. #24
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    So, just so we’re clear: What exactly are you in favor of instead of belittling the efforts of others to entice change? Can you share?
    People try to convince the responsibles, WotC, Hasbro, ... to make something happen about the RL since many, many years, not only here, but in literally any Magic forum, in podcasts, in articles, in blogs.
    Even MaRo failed to change anything.

    My impression is, that during the recent years, efforts to abolish the RL have faded away, because people have proabably resigned on this topic.

    Your efforts in all honors, I just have little hope, after so many people already have tried and failed.

    I'd rather followed the idea of an reserved-list less Legacy, or the Trinity format, or a new format which is the love child of Premodern and Modern, i.e. everything from 4th edition onwards.
    It's more likely that Wizards picks such a format up, like they did with Commander, than they would abolish the reserve list.

  5. #25

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    I'm fine with the reserved list. If you wanna play Legacy you better be prepared to invest, as I did.

  6. #26
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    I'm fine with the reserved list. If you wanna play Legacy you better be prepared to invest, as I did.
    Why should it be that way?
    Does it make a better game experience to have invested thousands of dollars in cards??
    Or Do you want to exclusively play with a certain category of people (The ones that can afford to play legacy)?

    If legacy was not "Dying", I would say yes, i'm fine with the reserved list. However it is "Dying", we need more players, more events, etc...
    The cost entry is the only reason why we have less and less players each year.

    Perhaps you should not say "i'm fine with the reserved list", but something along the lines "I can't bear loosing money if my valuable cardboard is reprinted" That would probably represent your opinion more accurately.

    (I have dual lands and legacy staples).

  7. #27

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Why should it be that way?
    Does it make a better game experience to have invested thousands of dollars in cards??
    Or Do you want to exclusively play with a certain category of people (The ones that can afford to play legacy)?

    If legacy was not "Dying", I would say yes, i'm fine with the reserved list. However it is "Dying", we need more players, more events, etc...
    The cost entry is the only reason why we have less and less players each year.

    Perhaps you should not say "i'm fine with the reserved list", but something along the lines "I can't bear loosing money if my valuable cardboard is reprinted" That would probably represent your opinion more accurately.

    (I have dual lands and legacy staples).
    Magic costs money to play, that's just how it is. Legacy requires a fairly high investment vs other formats, but then the cards hold or increase their value so the net cost of getting it into is actually low or even profitable over the long-term. Also Standard is easily the most expensive format over any reasonable length of time, yet is popular, which makes me doubt the claim that price is a major factor in how much people play.

    I actually think the high barrier to entry makes it a better format. Legacy players are more invested in the format I find and this makes them more interesting to play against. They tend to be better versed in the meta and more experienced players in general which makes for good, skill-intensive games. When you play a legacy event you don't tend to face opponents with no idea what they're doing or who are children. I don't think making the format more accessible will result in improved play.

    Sure, the value of my cards matters as well. I saved and traded for years to build my deck, playing various budget options as I did so. Maybe you're happy to see your card values written down to nothing by reprints, but many people will not be.

    So as I said, I'm fine with the reserved list. It makes the format's player pool better and preserves my card values, two things I care about.

  8. #28
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Why should it be that way?
    Does it make a better game experience to have invested thousands of dollars in cards??
    Yes. Playing Standard feels like holding a piece of wood in hands, which you know will decay during the next months.

    I never played Pauper, but I can't imagine a good experience, even if had a good metagame, decision making, complexitiy, interaction... (that's why I never to interest in it).

    Playing Legacy feels like holding a gold barren in hands. Usually there's a lot of history and affection in your deck, unlike a Standard deck. You hold your memories (e.g. to good tournaments) and your hard work (e.g. to trade for those bb duals) in your hands. This comes with a price of course, which younger players probably aren't willing to pay, because they don't have any nostalgia attached to expensive old cards.

  9. #29

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Magic costs money to play, that's just how it is. Legacy requires a fairly high investment vs other formats, but then the cards hold or increase their value so the net cost of getting it into is actually low or even profitable over the long-term. Also Standard is easily the most expensive format over any reasonable length of time, yet is popular, which makes me doubt the claim that price is a major factor in how much people play.

    I actually think the high barrier to entry makes it a better format. Legacy players are more invested in the format I find and this makes them more interesting to play against. They tend to be better versed in the meta and more experienced players in general which makes for good, skill-intensive games. When you play a legacy event you don't tend to face opponents with no idea what they're doing or who are children. I don't think making the format more accessible will result in improved play.

    Sure, the value of my cards matters as well. I saved and traded for years to build my deck, playing various budget options as I did so. Maybe you're happy to see your card values written down to nothing by reprints, but many people will not be.

    So as I said, I'm fine with the reserved list. It makes the format's player pool better and preserves my card values, two things I care about.
    On the other hand, being priced into a deck because you can't afford to switch makes for poor quality of play and a shrinking legacy player base means that while card prices hold value their velocity decreases so while you might get their full value you'd rather not wait a year for someone to be looking for them.

  10. #30

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    On the other hand, being priced into a deck because you can't afford to switch makes for poor quality of play and a shrinking legacy player base means that while card prices hold value their velocity decreases so while you might get their full value you'd rather not wait a year for someone to be looking for them.
    A fair point, though neither of those issues particularly bothers me.

  11. #31

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Just get them to print snow covered dual lands, easiest work around.

  12. #32

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Can we just sticky one of these like the B&R Thread? So everyone can just keep rehashing the same arguments there over and over again?

  13. #33

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    A fair point, though neither of those issues particularly bothers me.
    You should talk to you who said the opposite in the post I was replying to.

  14. #34

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    You should talk to you who said the opposite in the post I was replying to.
    How exactly did I say the opposite?

  15. #35

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    How exactly did I say the opposite?
    So as I said, I'm fine with the reserved list. It makes the format's player pool better and preserves my card values, two things I care about.
    Players who can't play good decks makes the pool worse, and values you can't ever redeem are not preserved.

  16. #36

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Players who can't play good decks makes the pool worse, and values you can't ever redeem are not preserved.
    But that's not the point you made and that I agreed with.

    You said you can't easily switch decks, which I agree with. But I like the archetype I have no desire to change decks, so it doesn't affect me.

    You said it might take time to shift cards for optimal price, and I agree, but I have enough headroom to cut price if I need a fast sale but am similarly unlikely to need to sell in a hurry, so it also doesn't affect me.

  17. #37

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    But that's not the point you made and that I agreed with.

    You said you can't easily switch decks, which I agree with. But I like the archetype I have no desire to change decks, so it doesn't affect me.
    So do you care about the player pool or not?
    You said it might take time to shift cards for optimal price, and I agree, but I have enough headroom to cut price if I need a fast sale but am similarly unlikely to need to sell in a hurry, so it also doesn't affect me.
    So do you care about your cards values or not?

  18. #38
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Cool, this thread again

    This is never happening. I hate that, I really do. But it's not happening. We've all seen Rosewater commenting both in text and on camera that they're essentially legally bound to honor the RL. We've seen what happens when they break it in spirit, and it is a loose definition of "spirit" to be sure, because collectors are also hip to the notion of functional reprints, so it's not just the Phyrexian Negators that trip their triggers, it's the Reverberates that traipse too close to Fork functionality that also grinds the gears of those who stand to lose on an undermined Reserve List. Rosewater and others have commented on the fallout from printing Reverberate as well. I'm not linking to it because I'm on my phone and at work, y'all have Google.

    You also have to recall that the Reprint Policy directly contributed to the innovation that is the rotating format. Magic has Standard and a Pro Tour because they had to work around the constraints of the Reprint Policy. The reason the RP exists in the first place was because "professional collectors" had been burned by too many collectibles that had the bottom drop out and they wanted someone to guarantee their next investment was actively trying to stay valuable and collectible. NPR did a pretty good story about this a few years back. The RP may well be a stumbling block for Eternal players but it's also the thing that led to the biggest cash cow Magic could ever have hoped for. What possible incentive could you offer Hasbro to interfere with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    Creature type - 'Fuck you mooooooom'
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    EDIT: Tsumi, you are silly.

  19. #39

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So do you care about the player pool or not?
    So do you care about your cards values or not?
    You've made an unsubstantiated link between the ability to easily switch decks and player quality which I don't believe exists.

    Yes I care about the values, but saying that firesales require price cuts is applicable to literally everything of value and is entirely unrelated to the reserve list.

  20. #40

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    You've made an unsubstantiated link between the ability to easily switch decks and player quality which I don't believe exists.
    There's no link between player quality and deck selection? Ried Duke Playing 60 islands is the high quality play you're looking for?
    Yes I care about the values, but saying that firesales require price cuts is applicable to literally everything of value and is entirely unrelated to the reserve list.
    If I want to sell a modern staple, the wait is trivial. I see the same listings for grim monolith on ebay for months.

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