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Thread: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

  1. #101

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by JDK View Post
    Seems like the trolls and RL hoarders are some of the last people left on The Source. What a shame.

    I'd rather see my Tabernacle drop to 10€ (spoiler: it won't, even with the fall of the RL...not even with an actual reprint) than to not have Legacy at my FNM.
    Ahhh... the old "people I disagree with are trolls" argument.

  2. #102

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Ahhh... the old "people I disagree with are trolls" argument.
    To be honest, "Does the AI opponent count?" cannot be interpreted as anything other than trolling.

  3. #103
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Ahhh... the old "people I disagree with are trolls" argument.
    Do you even read, bro?
    I riffle shuffle so hard. Bitch, my Tabernacle twitters #metoo.

  4. #104
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    I don't see that being too difficult:

    Exhibit A: 11/12/19 $350 market price for a Revised Volcanic Island
    Exhibit B: 1/1/20 announcement of Reserve List Masters Set by WOTC
    Exhibit C: 1/3/20 $50 market price for Revised Volcanic Island
    I would argue there's no actual damages to be claimed, owner of said Revised Volcanic Island still owns exactly 1 (one) Volcanic Island from the Revised Edition of Magic: The Gathering a Deckmaster Game. No legally acknowledged market exists for Revised Edition Volcanic Island thus Exhibit A and Exhibit C are inadmissible.

  5. #105

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    One recent sign that makes an abolishment of the Reserved List more likely is that things at Wizards have apparently changed in a way that they aren't super reluctant of banning highly valuable and recently printed money cards like W6, Oko and Once anymore. It seems that guaranteed price stability of their chase cards isn't their ultimate goal anymore and that they aren't afraid of losing customer/speculator faith that way like they have been in the past. This might increase the likelihood that the RL might be somewhat weakened in some way or the other.

  6. #106
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    I don't think it will change anything but i signed the petition.
    You shouldn't even be shocked that many people are so attached to their money they think the desire to play legacy without spending thousands dollars is foolish.
    It's not a problem of magic the gathering, it's a problem of society and capitalism.

  7. #107

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Meekrab View Post
    I would argue there's no actual damages to be claimed, owner of said Revised Volcanic Island still owns exactly 1 (one) Volcanic Island from the Revised Edition of Magic: The Gathering a Deckmaster Game. No legally acknowledged market exists for Revised Edition Volcanic Island thus Exhibit A and Exhibit C are inadmissible.
    what?

  8. #108
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    It doesn't take a lawyer to punch a billion holes in the promissory estoppel argument.

    You have to prove—legally—that you purchased the card.
    You have to prove exactly how much money you spent on the card.
    You have to prove that any third party from which you purchased the card had set a reasonable price and had not misled or falsely advertised/arbitrarily set the purchase price.
    You have to prove that it's reasonable to consider the card an investment rather than a simple game piece.
    You have to prove that you purchased the card as an investment, not as a game piece or other retail product.
    You have to prove that the investment has/had appreciated by a concrete, non-arbitrary amount. (Good luck demonstrating the real market value of a mint-condition Lotus or any heavily played/damaged RL card.)
    You have to prove that the company made a promise in good faith and not under duress.
    You have to prove that the promise hadn't been broken before because if it were, any subsequent breach is of a voided contract. Alternatively/additionally, you have to prove the promise holds weight and that it's reasonable to expect the company to abide by it. (This is literally impossible because Feroz's Ban, etc.)
    You have to prove that your alleged investment was impacted by the breaking of the promise. (See above.)
    You have to prove that you are owed a specific sum for the depreciation of your alleged investment.

    If you've done all of those things (and maybe more), you just might get something out of a lawsuit.

    Of course, there's no law against filing a ridiculous lawsuit, as long as it's not frivolous. Probably explains the persistence of the list.
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  9. #109

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    I seriously doubt this will ever happen. Wizards is fine with what happened to vintage and they’re more than comfortable with the same thing happening to legacy.

    They not so secretly want the formats to be tiered. They expect people who stick around to ‘graduate’ into older formats. This really helps long term player retention. Even modern wasn’t really cutting it any more for that purpose. It will join vintage and legacy as niche formats.

    Even if a lawsuit was not an issue, the consumer confidence backlash would bbe substantial and unpredictable in its scope. They likely don’t want to open a chronicles level pandora’s box.

    One point I haven’t seen made is the discovery phase of the lawsuit and the potentially lethal damage it could inflict on the game. A question that will need to be answered will be ‘what was the motive for abolishing the banned list?’ Lawyers will be able to subpoena internal company communications. Who wants that? What they will likely find is a lot of private talk about card values and EV. This could cause wizards to find themselves on the wrong side of gambling laws.

    Abolishing the reserve list could be an extinction event for the profitability of magic, with basically no upside for wizards. You’re delusional if you think that letting more players access this niche formats would be considered anything close to a bottom line upside.

    Let the zen take over and rest easy knowing legacy will only ever be what it is. If we ever see a reserve list break, it will likely signal the end of supporting paper at all. Enjoy the best format in the game as much as you can. No petition will ever change this.

  10. #110

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    It doesn't take a lawyer to punch a billion holes in the promissory estoppel argument.

    You have to prove—legally—that you purchased the card.
    You have to prove exactly how much money you spent on the card.
    You have to prove that any third party from which you purchased the card had set a reasonable price and had not misled or falsely advertised/arbitrarily set the purchase price.
    You have to prove that it's reasonable to consider the card an investment rather than a simple game piece.
    You have to prove that you purchased the card as an investment, not as a game piece or other retail product.
    You have to prove that the investment has/had appreciated by a concrete, non-arbitrary amount. (Good luck demonstrating the real market value of a mint-condition Lotus or any heavily played/damaged RL card.)
    You have to prove that the company made a promise in good faith and not under duress.
    You have to prove that the promise hadn't been broken before because if it were, any subsequent breach is of a voided contract. Alternatively/additionally, you have to prove the promise holds weight and that it's reasonable to expect the company to abide by it. (This is literally impossible because Feroz's Ban, etc.)
    You have to prove that your alleged investment was impacted by the breaking of the promise. (See above.)
    You have to prove that you are owed a specific sum for the depreciation of your alleged investment.

    If you've done all of those things (and maybe more), you just might get something out of a lawsuit.

    Of course, there's no law against filing a ridiculous lawsuit, as long as it's not frivolous. Probably explains the persistence of the list.
    Exactly. There's been this years-long belief that somehow it's only protected because collectors will sue. Claiming P.E. when it comes to cards that have existed since 1993 is not easy to prove in a court of law. Nor would it, in my belief and discussions with litigators I know very well, likely get anywhere.

  11. #111
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Backseat_Critic View Post
    I seriously doubt this will ever happen. Wizards is fine with what happened to vintage and they’re more than comfortable with the same thing happening to legacy.

    They not so secretly want the formats to be tiered. They expect people who stick around to ‘graduate’ into older formats. This really helps long term player retention. Even modern wasn’t really cutting it any more for that purpose. It will join vintage and legacy as niche formats.

    Even if a lawsuit was not an issue, the consumer confidence backlash would bbe substantial and unpredictable in its scope. They likely don’t want to open a chronicles level pandora’s box.

    One point I haven’t seen made is the discovery phase of the lawsuit and the potentially lethal damage it could inflict on the game. A question that will need to be answered will be ‘what was the motive for abolishing the banned list?’ Lawyers will be able to subpoena internal company communications. Who wants that? What they will likely find is a lot of private talk about card values and EV. This could cause wizards to find themselves on the wrong side of gambling laws.

    Abolishing the reserve list could be an extinction event for the profitability of magic, with basically no upside for wizards. You’re delusional if you think that letting more players access this niche formats would be considered anything close to a bottom line upside.

    Let the zen take over and rest easy knowing legacy will only ever be what it is. If we ever see a reserve list break, it will likely signal the end of supporting paper at all. Enjoy the best format in the game as much as you can. No petition will ever change this.
    +1

    I've wanted the RL gone for a decade and some change, and I'm definitely not even the oldest of the old guard when it comes to Magic. When I started playing around '01 you could buy a dual - any dual - for $10 at the LGS. I bought my playset of LEDs at $4 a pop when the Legacy format was announced. Dig that. $16 for that playset. I can't believe what's happened.

    The fact is though, the RL is a foundational policy that directly led to the need for Standard. It's tough to sell people on a game where they have to swap their pieces every 18 months without it (and a Pro Tour to convince people that "the pros play Magic this way, you wanna play like a pro, riiiiight?"). Standard is far and away their most profitable format and doing anything to undercut it is going to be a non-starter. Legality is a red herring at that point. Convince the people making the most money that their primary vehicle for cash needs to be destabilized to sate older players who represent a sliver of the consumers and you'll see the Reprint Policy torn down faster than a Tom LaPille article on Legacy.
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  12. #112

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Convince the people making the most money that their primary vehicle for cash needs to be destabilized to sate older players who represent a sliver of the consumers and you'll see the Reprint Policy torn down faster than a Tom LaPille article on Legacy.
    In 2019, the Reserved List has nothing to do with Standard, or Modern, to any degree.

    The abolition of the Reserved List ideology isn't to satiate older players, it's to enable the influx of newer players into the format (or formats, including Vintage) so that the player base for these formats will increase exponentially and it can become exactly like its counterparts in that it gets part of the spotlight and isn't held back by a relic of the past.

    To do it isn't doing existing players really much of any favors - it's doing a favor to people that want to play the format that can't because of the cost of the format's most prolific staples.

  13. #113

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    In 2019, the Reserved List has nothing to do with Standard, or Modern, to any degree.

    The abolition of the Reserved List ideology isn't to satiate older players, it's to enable the influx of newer players into the format (or formats, including Vintage) so that the player base for these formats will increase exponentially and it can become exactly like its counterparts in that it gets part of the spotlight and isn't held back by a relic of the past.

    To do it isn't doing existing players really much of any favors - it's doing a favor to people that want to play the format that can't because of the cost of the format's most prolific staples.
    Monday’s article said that 2019 was more or less what they wanted from power w of new sets, barring some obvious mistakes and dialing back 3cmc walkers.

    Grant me sone speculative stats if you will.

    Standard could drive pack sales of new sets by itself. Player population is largest.

    Pioneer is great so far and could drive demand for standard cards at about of 25% of standard. Player population is probably around 60% of standard.

    Let’s say modern could create demand for 10% of new cards. Player population is about 35% of standard.

    Legacy would be around 2-3%. Player population is maybe 1%.

    Vintage maybe a few cards a year. Player population could be counted in the low thousands, total.

    These are the tiers I was referring to. They don’t want legacy and vintage (soon modern) to be too accessible or popular. It would ultimately cut into their bottom line. I’m of the opinion that modern horizons was not an indication of future support, but more of a send off. Now modern is pretty close to no RL legacy. Pioneer will be their new eternal baby for another decade.

    They’ve crafted this play environment on purpose to make the largest amount of money. If, for instance, legacy costs close to standard (or even pioneer) this would create a real problem. Let’s say 10% of pioneer players decide to jump into legacy instead. Great, you can sell them RL reprint products, but you’ve also supplied an incentive to consume less standard cards.

    The meteoric rise of commander is obviously a welcome surprise and doesn’t really cut into this model on the constructed side. There are a vocal group that decries the RL in commander too, but the format doesn’t really need it. Don’t worry, brawl was the 1.0 attempt to make a commander experience that is more affected by standard cards...

  14. #114

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Backseat_Critic View Post
    Monday’s article said that 2019 was more or less what they wanted from power w of new sets, barring some obvious mistakes and dialing back 3cmc walkers.

    Grant me sone speculative stats if you will.

    Standard could drive pack sales of new sets by itself. Player population is largest.

    Pioneer is great so far and could drive demand for standard cards at about of 25% of standard. Player population is probably around 60% of standard.

    Let’s say modern could create demand for 10% of new cards. Player population is about 35% of standard.

    Legacy would be around 2-3%. Player population is maybe 1%.

    Vintage maybe a few cards a year. Player population could be counted in the low thousands, total.

    These are the tiers I was referring to. They don’t want legacy and vintage (soon modern) to be too accessible or popular. It would ultimately cut into their bottom line. I’m of the opinion that modern horizons was not an indication of future support, but more of a send off. Now modern is pretty close to no RL legacy. Pioneer will be their new eternal baby for another decade.

    They’ve crafted this play environment on purpose to make the largest amount of money. If, for instance, legacy costs close to standard (or even pioneer) this would create a real problem. Let’s say 10% of pioneer players decide to jump into legacy instead. Great, you can sell them RL reprint products, but you’ve also supplied an incentive to consume less standard cards.

    The meteoric rise of commander is obviously a welcome surprise and doesn’t really cut into this model on the constructed side. There are a vocal group that decries the RL in commander too, but the format doesn’t really need it. Don’t worry, brawl was the 1.0 attempt to make a commander experience that is more affected by standard cards...
    So what you're insinuating is that there's no logistical cross-pollination of players between formats allowed? I fail to see how a theoretical unified policy on all formats (assuming Legacy and Vintage lose the Reserve List - which is clearly holding them back) would equate to a loss in sales because of the "push" on these other formats. We're talking about a theoretical push to Legacy in order to revitalize it and showcase it, as opposed to letting it sit in the background and slowly fade due to inaccessibility and support.

    Since something like this would be unprecedented, there's no way to tell what would wind up happening. What I personally believe is that assuming in this alternate universe where they actually would get rid of the Reserved List, I believe Legacy would immediately become the most popular format (next to Standard, I suppose) and sales would be flooding for format staples on the secondary market - contrary to the belief that the prices would "tank" (which they wouldn't, in my opinion, not on older versions).

    Any secondary market belief that the Reserved List would go away would equate to massive buyouts of Reserved List staples and you would - then hope to see - some congruent action between an announcement it is gone with a new set that will reprint some of those cards (i.e. Dual Lands). Continuing the suspension of belief for one more second, at that point, would you really care about the price of the Dual Lands you currently own versus the fertile landscape that would become a dreamworld of massive Legacy tournaments around the country (probably world) and the assimilation of the the format into top vendor tournament structures?

  15. #115
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Since something like this would be unprecedented, there's no way to tell what would wind up happening.
    Which is the whole crux of this thread and what, no matter now many times I seem to try to explain it, falls on purposively deaf ears.

    Harbro is not interesting in anything particularly unprecedented because that is risk and risk does not sit well with share-holders.

    The RL is predicated on legal action taken, not won. It's completely irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things, if the case of the collectors is actually won. The far more likely "damaging" aspect is the discovery for and in the trial itself. There will be disclosure, depositions, and information that is let out which Wizards/Hasbro is not interested in having public.

    No one wants to really consider this and still just continues to nonsensically argue the merits, or lack thereof, of the case itself, where there is little reason to assume that is the matter at hand.

    Nor is the matter at hand if Legacy/Vintage support with (or without) the RL is a viable business model, because Wizards has already decreed it is not, so it is not. In some alternate universe, or some hypothetical future, maybe it is, or maybe it still isn't. In this one though and in our direct, foreseeable future, it's nothing more than idle speculation, unprovable theory with unprovable conclusions to suppose one way or the other.

    If, some some reason, Wizards changes their mind, then there is a productive conversation to be had. But, as I point out above, there is little to no reason to suppose they ever would and it's not at all because they'd "lose the case" the collectors on the merit of PE.
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  16. #116

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Which is the whole crux of this thread and what, no matter now many times I seem to try to explain it, falls on purposively deaf ears.

    Harbro is not interesting in anything particularly unprecedented because that is risk and risk does not sit well with share-holders.

    The RL is predicated on legal action taken, not won. It's completely irrelevant, in the grand scheme of things, if the case of the collectors is actually won. The far more likely "damaging" aspect is the discovery for and in the trial itself. There will be disclosure, depositions, and information that is let out which Wizards/Hasbro is not interested in having public.

    No one wants to really consider this and still just continues to nonsensically argue the merits, or lack thereof, of the case itself, where there is little reason to assume that is the matter at hand.

    Nor is the matter at hand if Legacy/Vintage support with (or without) the RL is a viable business model, because Wizards has already decreed it is not, so it is not. In some alternate universe, or some hypothetical future, maybe it is, or maybe it still isn't. In this one though and in our direct, foreseeable future, it's nothing more than idle speculation, unprovable theory with unprovable conclusions to suppose one way or the other.

    If, some some reason, Wizards changes their mind, then there is a productive conversation to be had. But, as I point out above, there is little to no reason to suppose they ever would and it's not at all because they'd "lose the case" the collectors on the merit of PE.
    One has to try - that's the purpose of the thread. Regardless of how many times it has been done before, who has done it, etc. If you want my honest opinion, I don't think the petition will do anything. But that's not the point. The point is that as long as people see it exists and know, the seed of doubt or thought can be planted into the heads of whomever "important" may see it. And that's okay with me.

    This also may sound wrong, but I think the masses have a louder voice than A.F. or any of the Wizards cronies do. We're the ones putting the cash on the table for the product, not them.

    There is no fault or harm in speaking on behalf of those who share the same affiliation or thought in order to attempt to reinvigorate some life into the format they love playing, regardless of consequences.

  17. #117
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    One has to try - that's the purpose of the thread. Regardless of how many times it has been done before, who has done it, etc. If you want my honest opinion, I don't think the petition will do anything. But that's not the point. The point is that as long as people see it exists and know, the seed of doubt or thought can be planted into the heads of whomever "important" may see it. And that's okay with me.

    This also may sound wrong, but I think the masses have a louder voice than A.F. or any of the Wizards cronies do. We're the ones putting the cash on the table for the product, not them.

    There is no fault or harm in speaking on behalf of those who share the same affiliation or thought in order to attempt to reinvigorate some life into the format they love playing, regardless of consequences.
    I'm not telling you to do, or not do, anything. I'm merely explaining how and why your efforts will likely be wasted. The likely fact is there are plenty of people in Wizards that hate the RL and want it gone, but if wishes were fishes, right?

    Some things just don't work out solely because we desire them, even if those desires have noble intentions. I believe that Legacy is, in fact, the best competitive format in Magic. But Magic isn't just an idealistic card game, as it is for us. It's a real, practical business operation for Hasbro. And part of that necessitates certain approaches.

    Unless you can somehow unshackle Wizards from the corporate beholdings of Hasbro, unless you can unburden Wizards from the capitalistic paradigm it necessarily must be in, unless you can actually make a business case, all the idealism, deontological concerns are well and good, but will fall on largely deaf corporate ears because money talks and nobody walks.

    So, fight the good fight, but as I said all that time ago, Wizards won't support us. We are on our own, for better or worse, no matter how hard we shake our fist at the clouds.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  18. #118

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Backseat_Critic View Post
    I’m of the opinion that modern horizons was not an indication of future support, but more of a send off. Now modern is pretty close to no RL legacy. Pioneer will be their new eternal baby for another decade.
    Truth was told /thread

  19. #119
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    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Glass House View Post
    To be honest, "Does the AI opponent count?" cannot be interpreted as anything other than trolling.
    But I wasn't trolling. I just play (and enjoy playing) vs the AI-bot a lot, so I asked a question. I know the AI isn't fully competent opponent, I am not that naive, but it is not completely worthless either. And no, I am not obliged to keep myself silent, when I have very little credentials in "real" Magic. I know MtG for 22 years since Tempest and I am quite experienced.

    - Keeping or abolishing the RL list does not directly affect me.
    - Disappearance of "serious" Legacy and Vintage tournaments does not directly affect me.
    - I like reading reports, articles and forums about eternal, casual and historic formats, I want them remain.
    - I really dislike being called a troll, a n00b or whatever, especially from a guy I have never met.
    My decks from real paper cards:

    [Modern] Green Deathtouch
    [Vintage] Suicide Red
    [Casual Legacy] Blood Bats
    [Legacy] White Suspend Aggro Control

  20. #120

    Re: Abolish the Reserve List Petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry Dwarf View Post
    But I wasn't trolling. I just play (and enjoy playing) vs the AI-bot a lot, so I asked a question.
    Where is the AI magic bot that lets you play legacy?

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