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Thread: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

  1. #1
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    WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    Popular journalist Tim Pool who also plays MtG talks about it in this video


    Link to the Vice article : https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/x...s-drew-apology

  2. #2

    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    From a business perspective, this is defensible. Brands are increasingly getting dragged into politics or are proactively addressing the demands of millennials to show their political stance on difficult topics. Whether it's Blitzchung, Nike-Colin Kaepernick-NFL or Patagonia-Trump Tax for Climate Action.

    Brands want a large audience to sell to, so they dont want to exclude people. This means that by definition they will lean towards inclusivity and the political norms and values that go with leftwing ideologies. SJW values have been creeping into magic more and more over the last few years, but it has really become pronounced in the last year. I would wager that the whales, upon which Magic makes most of its money, do not align with those values and are increasingly put off by this tendency to politicize the game. I don't think this will stop though, given that Blizzard got attacked even by US Senators and its own employees for not wanting to become a podium for political speech. Terese Nielsen got absolutely trashed for liking Trump tweets and other right wing people. You would think that everybody is entitled to his own political views without getting ostracized and called a neonazi and a bigot.

    We are living in a politicized world and brands will need to come to terms with the fact that they can't stay neutral on social topics anymore. Unfortunately, because of the dynamics of economics, that means they will probably go for inclusivity for the envisioned greater audience they can cater to. However, I think that is misguided. By disenfranchising your older, core audience, you are eroding the foundations on which your product stands. I think WOTC is really afraid of an event like Blitzchung, because that's super bad for business, and that's why they are giving into the demands of the vocal minority, unaware of the spiral of silence of the majority that is WOTCs bread and butter.

    This is happening to all businesses. From automotive companies greenwashing their image even though they were the biggest blockers of the electric vehicle, to McDonalds literally greenwashing its corporate identity, to IKEA which is a very extreme left organization but at the same time has one of the world's most elaborative and secretive tax avoidance schemes, to Shell that's televising a carbon reduction travel challenge in the UK and Netherlands. These companies care about money, purpose is just the veneer used to sell to a woke public.
    Last edited by bruizar; 11-28-2019 at 07:00 AM.

  3. #3

    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    [Note: Tim Pool is a dunce and I haven't watched the video in the OP but I have heard about the mtg-story-related-announcement]

    From a business perspective, this is defensible. Brands are increasingly getting dragged into politics or are proactively addressing the demands of millennials to show their political stance on difficult topics. Whether it's Blitzchung, Nike-Colin Kaepernick-NFL or Patagonia-Trump Tax for Climate Action.
    Sure, if a business associates with X, it is tacitly approving of X. If a business chooses not to associate with X, it is tacitly disapproving of X. Consumers who feel strongly about X will react accordingly. (I.e. I agree with what you're saying but it's pretty uncontroversial so far).

    Brands want a large audience to sell to, so they dont want to exclude people. This means that by definition they will lean towards inclusivity and the political norms and values that go with leftwing ideologies. SJW values have been creeping into magic more and more over the last few years, but it has really become pronounced in the last year. I would wager that the whales, upon which Magic makes most of its money, do not align with those values and are increasingly put off by this tendency to politicize the game.
    It's a bold claim to suggest that the majority of MTGs audience is socially conservative and therefore WotC is hurting their bottom line by e.g. implying that Nissa and Chandra are lesbians. (The premise that these people form a significant majority of the playerbase is already arguable and it also seems unlikely to me that they care enough about e.g. the story or the artwork for it to affect their purchasing habits).

    I don't think this will stop though, given that Blizzard got attacked even by US Senators and its own employees for not wanting to become a podium for political speech.
    Blizzard didn't get attacked for "not wanting to become a podium for political speech", it attempted to silence a pro-HK message and therefore got attacked by western media/society for appearing to support a pro-China position. Regardless of your personal views on the political situation it seems pretty obvious that if one of the players was a PRC citizen and went on stream with a banner that said "HK is a Chinese territory" or something then blizzard would have received far less backlash for punishing that player.

    Terese Nielsen got absolutely trashed for liking Trump tweets and other right wing people. You would think that everybody is entitled to his own political views without getting ostracized and called a neonazi and a bigot.
    She wrote an open letter where she could have outright denied having these beliefs and instead basically doubled-down with something like what you said here: 'everybody is entitled to believe whatever they want now leave me alone'. Of course everybody is 'entitled' to their own political views, but if you have bigoted political views then people are going to label you as a bigot and react accordingly. (Similarly to how if you dislike a sportswear companies' pro-Kaepernick political views you can choose not to buy their products and encourage your friends to do the same).

    We are living in a politicized world and brands will need to come to terms with the fact that they can't stay neutral on social topics anymore. Unfortunately, because of the dynamics of economics, that means they will probably go for inclusivity for the envisioned greater audience they can cater to. However, I think that is misguided. By disenfranchising your older, core audience, you are running the foundations of MTG into the ground. I think WOTC is really afraid of risking an event like Blizzard had, because that's super bad for business, and that's why they are giving into the demands of the vocal minority, unaware of the spiral of silence of the majority that is WOTCs bread and butter (This was in fact the same dynamic that got Trump elected).
    "WotC thinks they are making the right play here but I'm smarter than their marketing department for remembering that 2016 proved the world is full of closet homophobes" is a scorching take lol

    This is happening to all businesses. From automotive companies greenwashing their image even though they were the biggest blockers of the electric vehicle, to McDonalds literally greenwashing its corporate identity, to IKEA which is a very extreme left organization but at the same time has one of the world's most elaborative and secretive tax avoidance schemes, to Shell that's televising a carbon reduction travel challenge in the UK and Netherlands. These companies care about money, purpose is just the veneer used to sell to a woke public
    So now you're happily back to 'wokeness sells?' I agree that the wokeness of some (or all) of these entities is largely performative (if not outright hypocritical) but this is an entirely separate issue. Is there some silent majority of people who actually approve of fuel-inefficient cars that fart lead, or megacorps who dont pay taxes, or clearing the amazon for farmland? Would McDonalds make more money if they ran a campaign like "yo we make burgers and fuck up the planet" or is wokeness only bad business for wotc for some reason

  4. #4

    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    [Note: Tim Pool is a dunce and I haven't watched the video in the OP but I have heard about the mtg-story-related-announcement]


    Sure, if a business associates with X, it is tacitly approving of X. If a business chooses not to associate with X, it is tacitly disapproving of X. Consumers who feel strongly about X will react accordingly. (I.e. I agree with what you're saying but it's pretty uncontroversial so far).


    It's a bold claim to suggest that the majority of MTGs audience is socially conservative and therefore WotC is hurting their bottom line by e.g. implying that Nissa and Chandra are lesbians. (The premise that these people form a significant majority of the playerbase is already arguable and it also seems unlikely to me that they care enough about e.g. the story or the artwork for it to affect their purchasing habits).


    Blizzard didn't get attacked for "not wanting to become a podium for political speech", it attempted to silence a pro-HK message and therefore got attacked by western media/society for appearing to support a pro-China position. Regardless of your personal views on the political situation it seems pretty obvious that if one of the players was a PRC citizen and went on stream with a banner that said "HK is a Chinese territory" or something then blizzard would have received far less backlash for punishing that player.


    She wrote an open letter where she could have outright denied having these beliefs and instead basically doubled-down with something like what you said here: 'everybody is entitled to believe whatever they want now leave me alone'. Of course everybody is 'entitled' to their own political views, but if you have bigoted political views then people are going to label you as a bigot and react accordingly. (Similarly to how if you dislike a sportswear companies' pro-Kaepernick political views you can choose not to buy their products and encourage your friends to do the same).


    "WotC thinks they are making the right play here but I'm smarter than their marketing department for remembering that 2016 proved the world is full of closet homophobes" is a scorching take lol


    So now you're happily back to 'wokeness sells?' I agree that the wokeness of some (or all) of these entities is largely performative (if not outright hypocritical) but this is an entirely separate issue. Is there some silent majority of people who actually approve of fuel-inefficient cars that fart lead, or megacorps who dont pay taxes, or clearing the amazon for farmland? Would McDonalds make more money if they ran a campaign like "yo we make burgers and fuck up the planet" or is wokeness only bad business for wotc for some reason
    I sense some hostility in your post. I'm not debating whether one political view is more righteous than another. I'm saying leftwing ideology will always win in the market because it means bigger audience and that's how companies make money.


    EDIT:
    So now you're happily back to 'wokeness sells?' I agree that the wokeness of some (or all) of these entities is largely performative (if not outright hypocritical) but this is an entirely separate issue. Is there some silent majority of people who actually approve of fuel-inefficient cars that fart lead, or megacorps who dont pay taxes, or clearing the amazon for farmland? Would McDonalds make more money if they ran a campaign like "yo we make burgers and fuck up the planet" or is wokeness only bad business for wotc for some reason"
    People are getting more and more tired of politics creeping into every part of our lives. There's a reason why Twitter banned political ads. It creates a chasm between people. Games are meant to bring people together, not used as a platform to push your ideology onto others. I wouldn't care less about your sexuality, why are you forcing me to care about it?

  5. #5
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    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    Never try to use Vice as source. It's pure clickbait garbage. This parody exists for a reason:


  6. #6

    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    I'm not debating whether one political view is more righteous than another. I'm saying leftwing ideology will always win in the market because it means bigger audience and that's how companies make money.
    I mean right there in the post you clearly implied that this stance would cause wotc to lose money by alienating a large portion of its playerbase

    People are getting more and more tired of politics creeping into every part of our lives. There's a reason why Twitter banned political ads. It creates a chasm between people.
    Twitter didn't ban political ads because its users were fatigued by them, Twitter banned political ads to limit the ability of political entities to spread dishonest propaganda.

    Games are meant to bring people together, not used as a platform to push your ideology onto others. I wouldn't care less about your sexuality, why are you forcing me to care about it?
    lol

    There have been story arcs where Jace is romantically connected to Liliana and/or Vraska, are you equally upset that wotc is 'forcing' you to 'care about' (hetero-) sexuality?
    Either
    1. You actually are equally upset about this portrayal of sexuality, which probably makes you some kind of prude, I guess? I mean even stories for kids have the prince and princess living happily ever after in some kind of romantic situation so I'm not too sure what your issue is.
    2. You aren't upset about this portrayal of sexuality, because you have a socially conservative moral framework that only disapproves of homosexual relationships, in which case it seems society has left you behind, sorry
    3. You aren't upset about this portrayal of sexuality, because it meets your expectation that wotc designs its products to contain representations of you, (presumably) a straight dude.

    Perhaps you can start by questioning your assumption that any story involving non-hetero characters is necessarily "pushing an ideology?" If you don't think wotc is part of some kind of insane global conspiracy to emasculate all men then their only apparent "ideology" in this case is to maximise profits by appealing to a diverse audience. And the only reason I can think to be upset by this is because you are in a situation where you are no longer the sole target audience. In which case, boohoo, other groups have had to deal with that for a long time. (I'm sure you can find plenty of essays on media representation that make the point more eloquently than this)

  7. #7

    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    From a business perspective, this is defensible. Brands are increasingly getting dragged into politics or are proactively addressing the demands of millennials to show their political stance on difficult topics. Whether it's Blitzchung, Nike-Colin Kaepernick-NFL or Patagonia-Trump Tax for Climate Action.
    You are close but not quite right.

    Basically, it is all about money because they want to expand the game in China, so the apology is meant to appease the core Western audience while not being viewable in China/Russia as to not alienate their governments. In the end, the real goal of every major company is to keep the shareholders happy and maximize return on investment, and this apology is just a part of that strategy.

  8. #8

    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    You are close but not quite right.

    Basically, it is all about money because they want to expand the game in China, so the apology is meant to appease the core Western audience while not being viewable in China/Russia as to not alienate their governments. In the end, the real goal of every major company is to keep the shareholders happy and maximize return on investment, and this apology is just a part of that strategy.
    Yes, you are correct. In the past they did not have to choose because the content was different. WOTC chose to add content that is not globally accepted while trying to sell a product globally. Now they are between a rock and a hard place and will have to create 2 separate products for separate markets, because they are kind of forced to continue making that content since they apologized for it. One possible storyline outcome is that Chandra, Nissa or both will get killed so that WOTC doesn't have to deal with this politicized topic anymore. Kombatkiwi right here just confirmed that introducing politics causes a division amongst the players, and even the connection between the players and the artists, which is the opposite of what games are created for.

    Go to https://company.wizards.com
    The first thing you will see in big, bold letters is:
    "We Make Games That Bring People Together"

    When you play MTG, leave all your BS at the door and bring a legal set of 75 with you. Regardless of your gender, sexuality, race, religion or political views, we're gonna have a good time. That's the power of cardboard. Whether you are a Trump or Yang supporter, a dude bro or transgender, I will beat your ass regardless. :)

    Also, there is no right or wrong. Whatever your truth is, if you truly care about diversity then you also care about different perspectives, which include those you don't agree with.

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    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    fuel-inefficient cars that fart lead
    Awesome.

  10. #10

    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Kombatkiwi right here just confirmed that introducing politics causes a division amongst the players,
    What you don't quite seem to get is that "the status quo is good and we should try to preserve it" is itself a political ideology, one which you seem quite willing to push onto everybody else

  11. #11
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    Re: WotC apologizes about canceling the romance between Chandra and Nissa

    What should be getting people fired up is the fact that the non-sis character is Red. Red is aggressive and angry and mean. Why does that get represented by a non-hetro woman?! (Sorry, don't mean to assume gender.). Red is also the color of Republicans!! It's like Wizards is putting a MAGA hat on Chandra?! Do we support a pro-Trump flaming (truly flaming) LGBBTQQIAAP character??!!
    Listen up shitizens! http://www.noagendashow.com/
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