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Thread: How to save Legacy

  1. #41
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    ... I've spotted fake duals twice in tournaments, and both times they were double-sleeved on the other side of the table...
    Did you call a judge?

  2. #42
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Let people play with fakes. At least the game is being promoted. I dont want people to say i cant play cuz i cant afford the duals bro

  3. #43

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Let people play with fakes. At least the game is being promoted. I dont want people to say i cant play cuz i cant afford the duals bro
    Yup, I'd rather play against people with fully proxed decks, than to sit alone in my room and goldfish my 2k+ decks into oblivion.

    Hell, I'd even play against people that print their own proxies and glue them in front of plains.. I just want to play.
    For me it's just important, that I am able to see at first glance, which card they are dropping.

    Just imagine a chess tournament. Everbody needs to bring their own figures. But they have to be made of pure solid gold.
    Wooden figures? You ain't participating here, poor boy!
    Sounds stupid, doesn't it?

    Btw, I'm not trying to tell people to "cheat" and break the rules via using "fakes".
    I'd like to have the rules changed, so they can safely use proxies and have fun in the best format available - Legacy.

  4. #44

    Re: How to save Legacy

    i know we don't have access to insider sales numbers as to what todays magic players like to play/buy... but i'm really in the mood to play legacy/modern and i feel that we're expected to just play arena or pioneer. or commander. i don't get it.

  5. #45

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    4) It's fairly easy if you have a real dual to compare it to. I've spotted fake duals twice in tournaments, and both times they were double-sleeved on the other side of the table, so I don't think it's hard at all. And if you're buying a card and you're able to hold the card up close and use a loupe, there's no way to get fooled.
    This is definitely not true with the revised fakes.

    5) Why would you choose to do business with shop owners you don't think could spot a counterfeit card? If they can't tell the difference, they aren't going to be in business long. Just buy from reputable people and businesses. Yes, Wizards has used lots of different printers in the past few years, but you don't need to be an expert on print runs.
    See #4.

    It's important to me to support physical stores, especially owners. One of the owners I'm thinking of has been in business for about 3 years, and this year has really hit him hard. First it was his first real "rotation" and he clearly didn't understand you need to dump the bulk of your Standard stock before rotation so that kicked him economically, and then the hits on Oko, Once Upon a Time and Modern Horizons were a double whammy. He's really not going to be able to tell the difference between a real Scalding Tarn and a fake.

    I've only gotten foils, sealed product and cheap junk that doesn't matter, but you bet I am getting really paranoid about counterfeit foils and booster boxes. One of my Eldraine art foil Merfolk Secretkeepers is noticably murkier than the other 3, and since then I've seen a couple of other Eldraine foils with the same discrepancy. I can't imagine someone would go to the trouble of counterfeiting a common foil, but I've been looking for info to see if there are different print runs for these. But high quality counterfeit foils would be a real nightmare.

    It would be really simple for EDH proxy duals to be in Chinese language, for example, but instead there is some sort of strange cultural admiration for high quality counterfeit production here. If your friend is playing with with fake duals, you're supposed to say "My gosh! These look so real! How much did you pay for these?"

  6. #46

    Re: How to save Legacy

    The big issue is that the local game store model is effectively obsolete and has been for a while. Basically, selling via Amazon and major retailers makes more sense because it gives better access to the most important audiences for Wizards, the kitchen table players, which are the vast majority of players. With this in mind, it makes little sense to focus on a niche format of a game that should be a minor part of any local game store at this point because of the costs associated with inventory upkeep along with the fact that the stores cannot realistically compete on price with Amazon for booster packs/boxes. Rather than focus on Magic itself, it is better to focus on what the local game store can offer, which is a place to gather with options for snacks and drinks and treat Magic as a loss leader to get people in the door to spend on items with a higher profit margin.

    I would focus less on saving Legacy and more on saving the local game stores, because without them the only real option for Legacy is Magic Online.

  7. #47

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    The big issue is that the local game store model is effectively obsolete and has been for a while. Basically, selling via Amazon and major retailers makes more sense because it gives better access to the most important audiences for Wizards, the kitchen table players, which are the vast majority of players. With this in mind, it makes little sense to focus on a niche format of a game that should be a minor part of any local game store at this point because of the costs associated with inventory upkeep along with the fact that the stores cannot realistically compete on price with Amazon for booster packs/boxes. Rather than focus on Magic itself, it is better to focus on what the local game store can offer, which is a place to gather with options for snacks and drinks and treat Magic as a loss leader to get people in the door to spend on items with a higher profit margin.

    I would focus less on saving Legacy and more on saving the local game stores, because without them the only real option for Legacy is Magic Online.
    Yes, that is the model that I've found in many places in China. Board game clubs, where people pay a flat entry fee to rent a room and use of the store's board games. Not sure if it's a profitable model though, as many of the boardgame clubs I visited in Chongqing didn't actually sell the games.

    Also, that model actually requires a store. A lot of this bumper crop of trading card "stores" are just kiosks with product and tables and chairs, without an actual storefront. Of the three shops in Tianjin, only one (Pengfei) is a physical store with floor space.

    So you have two models ~
    a) boardgame stores with rooms that charge entry fee and mostly sell drinks and snacks and occasionally product. Often these are actually people's houses or apartments
    b) cardgame kiosks in a mall with a tiny display, product, and tables and chairs that you set up around the kiosk. Owner keeps most of their inventory at home, except perhaps a few binders. Singles are mostly done online, in fact to buy singles from the store physically you often have to order the cards from the store's website in advance and arrange when the owner brings the cards to the store. Mostly set up for draft and sealed tournaments (which is very popular here).

  8. #48

    Re: How to save Legacy

    It is more profitable to buy the games and rent them rather than directly sell them and compete with your own renting service. Plus with online vendors, there is no point to selling the games directly anyways when they can be likely be found cheaper online.

    The kiosks seem like they would violate WPN somehow, because I think there are actual storefront requirements, so I assume said events are unsanctioned.

  9. #49
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    @jiazhouhuaqiao: OK, well, the ones I'm referring to were fakes of Revised.

    @Tylert: I'll give some more context. Neither of the incidents occurred at Comp REL events. In the first one, which happened maybe five years ago, the judge asked the guy to replace his fake cards. When he returned a different week still running the fakes, the judge told him he had to abide by the rules and use real cards, and he left and didn't come back to the store. In the second incident, which happened this year, the tournament was ending, and I and a couple other players were able to determine a guy had been using some fake dual lands. He was upset to find out they were fake and was able to get his money back from the person who sold them to him. He continues to play regularly at the store.

  10. #50

    Re: How to save Legacy

    I'm calling horseshit on anyone who says they can tell a fake across the table through a pair of sleeves.
    And double so on any judge who read some article online and thinks they can spot and dq players based on it.

  11. #51
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I'm calling horseshit on anyone who says they can tell a fake across the table through a pair of sleeves.
    And double so on any judge who read some article online and thinks they can spot and dq players based on it.
    Meh. It's actually not hard. I've never seen a fake dual that was good enough to pass for a real one. It's possible they exist, but anyone buying a high-value card ought to own a loupe and know how to use it. If you can afford to play Magic, you can afford a loupe.

    As for judges, judges interview players. In the first incident, when questioned, the player admitted his duals were fakes, so it's not like there was much of an investigative process required.

  12. #52
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Personally, I hope the fakes one day become indistinguishable from the real thing. I would love to be able to play legacy again.

  13. #53

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    Meh. It's actually not hard. I've never seen a fake dual that was good enough to pass for a real one. It's possible they exist, but anyone buying a high-value card ought to own a loupe and know how to use it. If you can afford to play Magic, you can afford a loupe.
    and how, pray tell, would you identify the fake? Every method under heard of including the "tells" in this thread are nonsense. Like the edges are too clean? Ok you can control that. Cards can be restored to some extent, altered to look better. The bend test? You're going to bend a card in half and just guess at the card stock? Wizards can't make a consistent product in the year of our Lord 2019 but I'm sure they did 25 years ago when the game was in it's infancy
    As for judges, judges interview players. In the first incident, when questioned, the player admitted his duals were fakes, so it's not like there was much of an investigative process required.
    ...ok well coping to it I suppose is one method that works

  14. #54

    Re: How to save Legacy

    The only real way to "save" legacy involves personnel changes at WotC. As long as BS+Fetchlands are an unbannable format staple, 50-75% of the format will be blue shell + most efficient wincons. Sometimes something else will get lucky and take down a tourney, or something else will be super broken for a little while before it gets banned, but that's it, that's the format. I mean, hell, even all the best anti-blue cards (Narset, Leovold, TNN, Mystic Rebuke) are ALSO blue. It's just kinda dumb to pay an absurdly high (and thousands of dollars as a starting point IS an absurdly high barrier for any hobby) entry fee for a one strategy concept format.

    I wish that wasn't the case, but it is. Legacy will probably never die, it'll just keep going on into an ever more niche format played by fewer and fewer people, much like Vintage and '94.

  15. #55

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    The only real way to "save" legacy involves personnel changes at WotC. As long as BS+Fetchlands are an unbannable format staple, 50-75% of the format will be blue shell + most efficient wincons. Sometimes something else will get lucky and take down a tourney, or something else will be super broken for a little while before it gets banned, but that's it, that's the format.
    Only way to save legacy, is to ban Lightning Bolt. As long as this broken little spell is in the format, noone can play x/3 or smaller toughness creatures! So people are forced to play degenerate combo decks which forces other players to play Force of Police with cantrip cartel.
    Undercosted hyperefficient spotremoval and the color red in general is the real problem. Not BS+fetches!

  16. #56
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    and how, pray tell, would you identify the fake? Every method under heard of including the "tells" in this thread are nonsense.
    The quality of fakes is consistently exaggerated. Visual inspection has been enough, but I'm happy to carry a loupe in my bag if there's ever a question.

    Also, the "bend test" isn't a test. No one's bending cards.

  17. #57

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty View Post
    Only way to save legacy, is to ban Lightning Bolt. As long as this broken little spell is in the format, noone can play x/3 or smaller toughness creatures! So people are forced to play degenerate combo decks which forces other players to play Force of Police with cantrip cartel.
    Undercosted hyperefficient spotremoval and the color red in general is the real problem. Not BS+fetches!
    Lightning Bolt is clearly not the problem. We need to go straight to the source.

    Mountain.

    There, I said it. Ban Mountain and Legacy players will experience a new Golden Age. Maybe ban Volcanic Island too just to be safe.

  18. #58

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    Maybe ban Volcanic Island too just to be safe.
    Now that I think about it.. Volc wasn't even supposed to be in the game to begin with.

    Regarding the fakes..

    Quote Originally Posted by thefreakaccident View Post
    Personally, I hope the fakes one day become indistinguishable from the real thing. I would love to be able to play legacy again.
    Completely indistinguishible would be bad, as people could get ripped off, thinking they are buying the real deal. But I hope they get good enough, so these special snowflakes who think they can spot a double sleeved fake across the room, won't dare to call you out on it.
    At the end of the day it's printed cardboard and I'm not into elitism, if your printed cardboard is "real" enough to grant you to play a childrens game with me.

    I have held some of these fakes in my own hands and know for a fact, that they are already really good. I highly doubt, that most people could tell the difference when double sleeved. But outside of sleeves you can still see, feel and smell the difference right away.
    Like, you pick'em up and immediatly know, something's fishy here.

    As I live in a small city(200.000 inhabitants) with less then 10 legacy players, I really hope these fakes are getting some steam and people start to embrace them as a way to play legacy or even vintage. I don't want to drive across the country for 3+ hours just to be able to play every two months.

    Fun fact: Everybody in my playgroup has already been called out for using fakes, except for the one guy, that actually uses them :D
    He's running Goblins and his Watelands, Ports, Vials and I think his settler are fake. Noone ever batted an eye. But for some weird reason, these "fakespotting snowflakes" detect my 100%authentic Tabernacle to be fake. It just has to be :D

  19. #59
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I'm calling horseshit on anyone who says they can tell a fake across the table through a pair of sleeves.
    And double so on any judge who read some article online and thinks they can spot and dq players based on it.
    I've seen Nedleeds do it. Round 1 game 1 of an SCG I think it was. Opponent fetches a Volc, casts ponder, Nedleeds calls a judge on it being fake. Gets confirmed. Opponent had to change his card to a basic for the rest of the tournament. He supposedly had borrowed the deck so he didn't get a DQ I believe was the story
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  20. #60

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    The quality of fakes is consistently exaggerated. Visual inspection has been enough, but I'm happy to carry a loupe in my bag if there's ever a question.

    Also, the "bend test" isn't a test. No one's bending cards.
    I'm not hearing a method here, just assurances it's possible. Wizards can't even print cards correctly today, as megolithic company, but I'm sure they did 25 years ago when they were funded by farts bits of string

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