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Thread: How to save Legacy

  1. #21

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    Modern and Legacy are going to end up merging into a format that's somewhere in between both. Wizards can move Modern to be more like Legacy (which is the reason for Modern Horizons), but the only way to move Legacy is to ban the dual lands and other cards from the Reserve List.
    Yeah, Wizards can merge Modern and Legacy to make the best format ever.

    Called Legacy.

    You're right that with the RL in place, there's no way for WOTC to pimp Legacy like they do other formats. This doesn't mean that it's just going to die off. Legacy is a great format with a solid player base. It might not be growing exponentially but I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon.

  2. #22

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    This post makes absolutely no sense. First Iconic masters is not selling is because the cards are junk. The FTV sold like hot cakes. Good luck finding one in any store.
    In the 8 stores I've been to in the past year in Beijing, Chongqing and Tianjin, I've seen boxes of every FTV set after Relics sitting on shelves at MSRP ($100) or slightly marked up (up to 800 rmb). In fact the only FTV that was just selling was Transform after Pioneer was anounced. If you check out the prices on Goldfish you'll see that pretty much every FTV set after Relics have either stayed at slightly above MSRP or dropped below MSRP.

    And boxes and boxes of IMA, M25, UMA and Battlebond. Afaik the only eternal masters sets that sell are EMA and the Modern Masters set.

    As for your opinion that Modern Vintage and EDH are eating up the stock supplies...that makes absolutely no sense as well. The people playing those formats would have access to cards to play legacy. It is not like people sleeve up their cards to only play one deck.
    Except a lot of EDH players have no interest in playing Legacy, and the same with Vintage. People who primarily play those formats acquire cards for those formats pretty exclusively.

    The only barrier holding legacy back is NEW players, young players, who cannot get the chase cards in legacy to play with...so they settle for formats like modern or standard. So really...its not really taking out the card stock supply.
    There are only x number of Volcanic Islands, Tropical Islands and Underground Seas in the world, and they are moving OUT of the Legacy card pool, not IN.

  3. #23

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    There was a 100 player tournament in Beijing at the start of November and probably 90% of the players were Chinese?
    I wasn't at the Orlov tournament but I can guess how they got up to 100 players... it's likely that some of the players are not normal legacy players but rather either borrowed 3-6 duals for the tourney or played a non-dual land deck like burn with mostly modern/ modern horizons cards.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...ent-2019#paper

    If you analyze the top 16 of the tournament, here is the count of dual lands:
    Volcanic Island 18
    Tropical Island 19
    Underground Sea 5
    Bayou 3
    Savannah 5
    Tundra 2
    Scrubland 1
    Badlands 1

    Total: 54

    Force of Will 40
    Wasteland 27
    Lion's Eye Diamond 4
    Gaea's Cradle 1


    You also have 2 burn decks, 1 Dragon Stompy and 1 u/w snow control in the top 16 with 0 dual lands

    So let's say you extrapolate that to 90-100 decks, so in total in all of mainland China you have somewhere between 150-200 dual lands being played in Legacy.

  4. #24
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    This is why, if you've been reading the tea leaves for the past year, Wizards has been signalling hard that they are dropping support for Legacy to focus on Modern and EDH, discontinuing the Masters sets and pushing Modern Horizons and Commander products.
    Funny story, Modern Horizons has been one of the most impactful sets to Legacy in years and we always find EDH sets to have a few Legacy playables. They may not be attempting to support Legacy with new products, but they are inadvertently supporting them anyways. It's a little ironic, if your logic is sound, that the harder they push products for other formats in the hopes of making those more popular they are at the same time bolstering Legacy.

    Modern and Legacy are going to end up merging into a format that's somewhere in between both.
    We have that...it's called Legacy, lol.

    Moving in a different direction is the power creep people have been noticing over the past few years, highlighted this past year with War of the Spark, Modern Horizons, and Throne of Eldraine. Another way to make the reserved list less impactful is to simply make cards that are functionally better versions, or just push RL cards out of playability by being a strong foil to them. It's a mountain of a task, but looking at the absurd cards we've seen in recent sets I don't think its impossible.

    ...but the only way to move Legacy is to ban the dual lands and other cards from the Reserve List.
    Or Ban RL cards in EDH; other side of the coin.
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Funny story, Modern Horizons has been one of the most impactful sets to Legacy in years and we always find EDH sets to have a few Legacy playables. They may not be attempting to support Legacy with new products, but they are inadvertently supporting them anyways. It's a little ironic, if your logic is sound, that the harder they push products for other formats in the hopes of making those more popular they are at the same time bolstering Legacy.



    We have that...it's called Legacy, lol.

    Moving in a different direction is the power creep people have been noticing over the past few years, highlighted this past year with War of the Spark, Modern Horizons, and Throne of Eldraine. Another way to make the reserved list less impactful is to simply make cards that are functionally better versions, or just push RL cards out of playability by being a strong foil to them. It's a mountain of a task, but looking at the absurd cards we've seen in recent sets I don't think its impossible.



    Or Ban RL cards in EDH; other side of the coin.
    The guy is making a lot of assumptions that people won't sleeve up their duals when playing in another format.

  6. #26

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Astrolabe made duals obsolete. Top decks are now playing 2-3 duals AND Back to Basics/Blood Moon with 4 Labes.

    The problem is that even UW miracle likes 4 Astrolabe because it is a deck thinner and makes easier and more resilient to have WW (Labe can’t be Wastelanded or Rishadan Ported)

  7. #27
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    I wasn't at the Orlov tournament but I can guess how they got up to 100 players... it's likely that some of the players are not normal legacy players but rather either borrowed 3-6 duals for the tourney or played a non-dual land deck like burn with mostly modern/ modern horizons cards.

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...ent-2019#paper

    If you analyze the top 16 of the tournament, here is the count of dual lands:
    Volcanic Island 18
    Tropical Island 19
    Underground Sea 5
    Bayou 3
    Savannah 5
    Tundra 2
    Scrubland 1
    Badlands 1

    Total: 54

    Force of Will 40
    Wasteland 27
    Lion's Eye Diamond 4
    Gaea's Cradle 1


    You also have 2 burn decks, 1 Dragon Stompy and 1 u/w snow control in the top 16 with 0 dual lands

    So let's say you extrapolate that to 90-100 decks, so in total in all of mainland China you have somewhere between 150-200 dual lands being played in Legacy.
    Are you in our Beijing or Shanghai Legacy groups on QQ? Would be interesting to chat.

    People borrow cards for events, sure, but that's true for most formats.
    A book about the dark side of Legacy: "Magic: The Addiction" // Conversations with Magic players: "Humans of Magic"

  8. #28

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Poron View Post
    Astrolabe made duals obsolete. Top decks are now playing 2-3 duals AND Back to Basics/Blood Moon with 4 Labes.

    The problem is that even UW miracle likes 4 Astrolabe because it is a deck thinner and makes easier and more resilient to have WW (Labe can’t be Wastelanded or Rishadan Ported)
    This isn't true, if you were going to play UW the mana fixing and the ability to be bounced by Teferi (which some people aren't even playing at all) don't outweigh the upside of a better cantrip like Portent or Preordain that you could be spending your mana on instead

  9. #29

    Re: How to save Legacy

    power creep is an issue
    Lotus Field taps for3!!! Wrenn & Six, Oko, Emry, Once Upon a Time ...
    last sets are too much impactful for all formats.

    Perhaps the power creep can be an opportunity for Old School and Pre-Modern were new cards cannot enter.

    Enviado desde mi WAS-LX1A mediante Tapatalk

  10. #30
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Hi,

    I'm not sure if you are currently living in mainland or not, or who you often play MTG together with. Do you players like Liu Yuchen(Hui-Zhang) and Chen, Jia-Bin(a good Legacy player who participated 25th anniversary Team Trios PT on Legacy position)?

    Generally IMO, China Legacy is not that bad as you said. In reverse, it is becoming warmer and warmer.

    You might have heard some yearly tournament such as Orlov, Guangzhou MTA and etc. In cities such as Beijing and Shanghai, we have weekly Legacy tournament with more than 20 participants every week, which is a hug milestone comparing with several years ago. Orlov is having over 100 participants in the past 2-3 years, and even some famous oversea Legacy palyers were invited to China. Correct, China Legacy Community is still small but our voice is becoming louder and louder. So be optimistic, when old fire disappears, new fire burns.

    As for the whole Legacy, my point of view that we are definitely the secondary format compared with Standard or Pioneer or Modern. I have the same feeling that when you try to persuade some other folks to join Legacy they will say sorry but they can't afford the dual lands. Somehow before W&6 published our commnunity in Shanghai had a bunch of new comers who hold the Miracle decks(use only 1 Tundrea and Teferi, Narset). With that being said, I don't think we need to worry about this issue everyday because, Legacy itself, is the reason why players finally decide to join.

    Once about the time I saw a discussion in QQ Group(for someone who don't know, QQ is an online chatting software), a Legacy newbee and a Modern advocate was chatting. Newbee says "Oh I've been tired with Modern and I watched some other guys played Legacy yesterday. It was huge fun! I determine to join finally! How about you bro?" The Modern advocate replied:"No. Although I know Modern has is bull-shit part, there are still some parts in legacy I don't like."

    My experience like the story above has happened multiple times. A lot of other friends also complained about that. So our final decision is: We will stop like positively ask someone "Come on join us play Legacy!". Instead we will just play our tournament, post our report, share our photoes to social media and let the other China MTG players know that China Legacy Community is active and insane. Learnt from foreign communities, we are also posting our match videos onto the internet which attracted other players to watch and raised their interests on Legacy. It is all their rights to decide join or not, but from our result's perspective this is a better way to attract other players join.

    Hope my reply makes you feel more confident about the Legacy community in China. And I totally believe Legacy players around the world are all trying their best to not only save but also enlarge the community. Seeing the GP Bolognia 1600 players' participating is really a cheerful thing for everyone.

  11. #31
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Yes, what Reinhardt said :)

    You can also check the following sites for Legacy in China content:

    itsjulian.com
    writtenbyjames.com (shameless plug)

    Also how does one define Legacy player? Someone who only plays Legacy? Even then there are probably >4 Tianjin players.

    I'd consider someone who plays Legacy for big tournaments a Legacy player.

    It's this sort of elitist classification that drives people away and gives the format a bad reputation.


    Quote Originally Posted by ReinhardtGao View Post

    Stuff
    A book about the dark side of Legacy: "Magic: The Addiction" // Conversations with Magic players: "Humans of Magic"

  12. #32

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by ReinhardtGao View Post
    Hi,

    I'm not sure if you are currently living in mainland or not, or who you often play MTG together with. Do you players like Liu Yuchen(Hui-Zhang) and Chen, Jia-Bin(a good Legacy player who participated 25th anniversary Team Trios PT on Legacy position)?

    Generally IMO, China Legacy is not that bad as you said. In reverse, it is becoming warmer and warmer.

    .........................................
    Hope my reply makes you feel more confident about the Legacy community in China. And I totally believe Legacy players around the world are all trying their best to not only save but also enlarge the community. Seeing the GP Bolognia 1600 players' participating is really a cheerful thing for everyone.

    Thanks for typing a lot I stand for each word you said.



    Btw.
    Legacy needs help,but doesn`t need saved.

  13. #33

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Plague Sliver View Post
    Are you in our Beijing or Shanghai Legacy groups on QQ? Would be interesting to chat.

    People borrow cards for events, sure, but that's true for most formats.
    I'm coming on Sunday to pick up some singles, will be coming to the Haidian shops.

    I don't think I met you before James but last year I visited the shop by Chaoyangmen station several times. I might have met some of you before - I'm the guy who was looking for the foil Wild Mongrels

  14. #34

    Re: How to save Legacy

    How to save Legacy:

    1. Ban Brainstorm
    2. ???
    3. Profit!
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    How to save Legacy:

    1. Ban Brainstorm
    2. ???
    3. Profit!
    blue duals would definitely be cheaper...

  16. #36

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Plague Sliver View Post
    Yes, what Reinhardt said :)

    You can also check the following sites for Legacy in China content:

    itsjulian.com
    writtenbyjames.com (shameless plug)

    Also how does one define Legacy player? Someone who only plays Legacy? Even then there are probably >4 Tianjin players.

    I'd consider someone who plays Legacy for big tournaments a Legacy player.

    It's this sort of elitist classification that drives people away and gives the format a bad reputation.
    When are the Legacy tournaments at Kadou? I picked up some cards yesterday but the players I met at Xudou and Fangya only played Modern and Standard.

  17. #37
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    When are the Legacy tournaments at Kadou? I picked up some cards yesterday but the players I met at Xudou and Fangya only played Modern and Standard.
    https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/hFxt8cBIPSk_7GDVT9coxw

    Kadou organize Legacy on Sunday. You can follow their WeChat Public Account and receive their notification for weekly tournament schedule.

    Beijing Legacy QQ Group: 254676102

    It would be better if you connect with the community.

  18. #38
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    How to save Legacy:

    1. Ban Brainstorm
    2. ???
    3. Profit!
    Sure, let's knock the cheaper decks down a few pegs to make the format more accessible.
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  19. #39

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    This blows my mind.

    1) Deal with reputable shops and people.
    2) Buy a loupe.

    Fear no more.

    Also, if you know someone who knows someone making counterfeits, pass on the info to WOTC, because WOTC isn't making much progress in stopping the proliferation of Chinese counterfeits. Having assistance from people in China might help. You're a lot closer to that issue than those of us in the U.S.
    Having played some EDH over the past two weeks, I've noticed a few things -

    1) It's common practice for EDH players here to use fake Revised or fake Beta dual lands and some other expensive lands in their decks. Like nearly every EDH player uses them.

    2) So fake duals are really, really common. Everyone's seen them. I'm not saying they are used in Legacy here but they are use in EDH here.

    3) You can order them from Taobao (Chinese eBay). Easy to find.

    4) It's really difficult to "spot" a fake revised dual. The only way I knew immediately they were fakes was they were too clean, did not have the grime on the white borders. Otherwise they look exactly like fresh out of the pack revised duals as far as I can tell. The betas I saw were obviously fake since a) beta - come on b) the text extends into the card frame.

    5) I'm doubtful that newer shop owners have the experience or preserverence to spot fakes. So a dealer might not know that they have fake singles in their stock. I say this because I've encountered many singles which clearly feel wrong to the touch, but I can't tell if they are actual fakes or if Wizards used a different printer for foreign cards or something. The really obvious ones (super glossy, almost plastic) are either Korean, Chinese or Japanese. The point is you really have to be an expert on print runs to avoid buying and selling fakes now.

  20. #40
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    Having played some EDH over the past two weeks, I've noticed a few things -

    1) It's common practice for EDH players here to use fake Revised or fake Beta dual lands and some other expensive lands in their decks. Like nearly every EDH player uses them.

    2) So fake duals are really, really common. Everyone's seen them. I'm not saying they are used in Legacy here but they are use in EDH here.

    3) You can order them from Taobao (Chinese eBay). Easy to find.

    4) It's really difficult to "spot" a fake revised dual. The only way I knew immediately they were fakes was they were too clean, did not have the grime on the white borders. Otherwise they look exactly like fresh out of the pack revised duals as far as I can tell. The betas I saw were obviously fake since a) beta - come on b) the text extends into the card frame.

    5) I'm doubtful that newer shop owners have the experience or preserverence to spot fakes. So a dealer might not know that they have fake singles in their stock. I say this because I've encountered many singles which clearly feel wrong to the touch, but I can't tell if they are actual fakes or if Wizards used a different printer for foreign cards or something. The really obvious ones (super glossy, almost plastic) are either Korean, Chinese or Japanese. The point is you really have to be an expert on print runs to avoid buying and selling fakes now.
    1) This is common in the U.S. as well. Casual play doesn't require ownership of the cards unless your playgroup insists on it, so people proxy those. It's always preferable to use proxies, such as color copies, over counterfeits. Giving counterfeiters money encourages counterfeiting.

    4) It's fairly easy if you have a real dual to compare it to. I've spotted fake duals twice in tournaments, and both times they were double-sleeved on the other side of the table, so I don't think it's hard at all. And if you're buying a card and you're able to hold the card up close and use a loupe, there's no way to get fooled.

    5) Why would you choose to do business with shop owners you don't think could spot a counterfeit card? If they can't tell the difference, they aren't going to be in business long. Just buy from reputable people and businesses. Yes, Wizards has used lots of different printers in the past few years, but you don't need to be an expert on print runs.

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