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Thread: How to save Legacy

  1. #221

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    ban brainstorm?
    I've just spoken to my 17 Brainstorms. They are already calling you names, I won't dare to repeat publicly here :p

  2. #222
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    There's a bit of a "ship of Theseus" problem with a lot of these suggestions.

    Legacy is what it is, and a lot of people (incl. me) don't want to see the structure of the format change rapidly and artificially. (Cf. all the braying nonsense about how 2019 was the worst thing ever.) Banning something fundamental to the format isn't going to "make Legacy more accessible"; it's going to fundamentally restructure the format, the metagame, etc. If that's what you want, then fine, but it feels to me like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Would Legacy still be the ship of Theseus? Er—I mean...

    The best thing for the format would be ending the reserved list. Seeing as that's probably never going to happen, the next best thing would be to remove all the cards on the list from the list (as they did with all commons and uncommons "due to popular demand") or start reprinting cards on the list anyway (because Wizards literally has done this on multiple occasions). Next would be to allow gold-bordered and collector's edition cards to be used in tournaments. Their prices might spike in the short term, but I think you'd see them drop again (along with the prices of other format staples) once things stabilized.

    They could always start printing nearly functionally identical cards ("The Tabernacle at Denprell Vale enters the battlefield tapped as a copy of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale"). Hell, if they're worried about overlap with existing cards (e.g., the "eight Volcanic Island problem"), they could introduce a supertype like "Iconic:" "Your deck can only have one copy of an Iconic card."

    I also have no problem with proxies. I started playing Legacy in sixteen-proxy tournaments. I bought into the real thing because I wanted to actually have the cards even though nobody was stopping me from treating Watery Grave like Underground Sea if I told them beforehand that that's what I was doing. I also have friends whose interests were piqued by my Legacy stuff and who are totally priced out of the format now, and I don't want them not to play just because the prices of staples spiked after I bought mine.

    I think any or all of those things would be a lot better than banning RL cards. I like old cards, I like playing old cards, and I don't care if people xerox a trillion proxy duals to play the format with me. I like the format. And before people say it's disingenuous for me to say that I'm fine with the last year's printings but not fine with banning fundamentally important cards, I don't have a problem with the format's evolving: I have a problem with people's cutting it up in the name of anything other than gameplay.
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  3. #223

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    There's a bit of a "ship of Theseus" problem with a lot of these suggestions.
    ...

    Delver of Secrets and Modern Horizons/2019 is more Ship of Theseus than getting rid of 10 cards, of which 3 don't see any play except in "budget" (i.e. non-blue, non-green) decks.

    This is why Modern Horizons is bait, and so many Legacy players have taken the bait. Modern Horizons isn't "evolving the format", it's a Hickman -esque Darwin bubble that's going to push Legacy players into essentially playing Modern '19.

    You need to see Modern Horizons as the first piece of a bigger picture:

    In two years or so, Modern and Legacy are going to be using 95% of the same cards.
    The biggest difference between them will be that Modern has 100 times the playerbase that Legacy has and prize support. So at that point why would you not play Modern? And then Legacy is dead.
    I want to get rid of the 1% (dual lands) that's keeping out 99% of Magic players from joining Legacy and trying to save the 4% (High Tides and Veteran Explorers and Dreadnoughts and Goblin Welders) that make Legacy heads better than Modern.

    The problem with using counterfeits or even proxies is many players, even most players, aren't interested in playing with counterfeit cards even if they could get away with it. You can order online, right now, a counterfeit of any RL card that's indistinguishable from the real thing without a loupe or blacklight (if that actually works anymore). But I'd rather play Pioneer or even Modern than use a counterfeit card.

    Vintage with proxies is a little different; it's ok, sort of like playing Shandalar or MTGO.

  4. #224
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    ..."just" 10 cards

    It's a waste to even bother, but that's not how this works.

    The game is just a game, man. Cardboard rectangles. Most have words.

    Saving the game by changing the game so it's a different game isn't saving it.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  5. #225

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    ..."just" 10 cards

    It's a waste to even bother, but that's not how this works.

    The game is just a game, man. Cardboard rectangles. Most have words.

    Saving the game by changing the game so it's a different game isn't saving it.
    It is if the game is dead otherwise.

    And WotC isn't killing Legacy. WotC has done all they can. Legacy was born with a terminal birth defect. Again, like Hickman, if you've read his New Avengers run.

    They could always start printing nearly functionally identical cards ("The Tabernacle at Denprell Vale enters the battlefield tapped as a copy of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale"). Hell, if they're worried about overlap with existing cards (e.g., the "eight Volcanic Island problem"), they could introduce a supertype like "Iconic:" "Your deck can only have one copy of an Iconic card."
    Why would WotC bother doing this, for the .5% of idiots that refuse to get off a sinking boat, like people who refused to leave when Hurricane Katrina was coming, when they are busy building a new boat for everyone else?

    WotC has clearly signalled that UMA was the last act of charity they are going to waste on Legacy (that's what the U stands for).

    I don't like the new boat as much as the old boat, but I also love green cards and hate playing blue cards, so I'm much happier with where the new boat is going than where the old boat has been. So if this doesn't work, I'm not capsizing with the rest of you. I'm bailing.

    I mean, Aaron Barich just won SCG Knoxville with a deck that played Birds of Paradise. I dig that SO MUCH. Those birds are like the dove signalling to Noah that the deluge was over. I'm all in on a format where Birds is a good card.

  6. #226
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Irrelevant if it's dead or who or who not is killing it.

    Changing it to something it's not isn't saving it. It's changing it; to something it is not.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  7. #227

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Irrelevant if it's dead or who or who not is killing it.

    Changing it to something it's not isn't saving it. It's changing it; to something it is not.
    Then you're going to need to freeze Legacy in cryogenic storage like Old School.

  8. #228
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    Then you're going to need to freeze Legacy in cryogenic storage like Old School.
    No, you really don't. Your premise is that it needs to grow to live. Fair enough. But like you said, Legacy was born essentially terminal.

    In reality, we are in the undeath state now. And that is the state we will forever be in, as long as the Reserve List exists (i.e. as long as Standard and Limited are Wizards focus).

    What people are saying is, that changing Legacy's fundamental character to allow it to grow is not saving Legacy, it's essentially making a new format as a Legacy "analogue." I don't think that, generally speaking, such a thing is what most people want. Legacy can go on in undeath prospectively forever, never growing, but also never being extinguished.
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  9. #229
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    • Ban All Reserve List Cards -> Legacy becomes a New Format.
    • Ban the most important Reserve List Cards -> Legacy becomes a New Format.
    • Get Rid of Reserve List -> Not going to happen.
    • Allow Proxies -> People can play Legacy.
    • Allow Fakes -> Value of Legacy Cards Tumbles and some people are so disgusted holding cardboard that isn't worth hundreds of dollars that they eat in frustration and quit the game. The remaining souls play Legacy.
    • Wizards Prints More Cards that Upend Legacy -> Legacy evolves but stays legacy, much like it has done when Gofy, Delver, Eldrazi, Chalice, Vile, Affinity, Dredge, Etc, Etc other cards had been printed over the years making the format evolve.
    • Wizards prints functional copies of Reserved List Cards -> Not going to happen.
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  10. #230

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    ...

    Delver of Secrets and Modern Horizons/2019 is more Ship of Theseus than getting rid of 10 cards, of which 3 don't see any play except in "budget" (i.e. non-blue, non-green) decks.

    This is why Modern Horizons is bait, and so many Legacy players have taken the bait. Modern Horizons isn't "evolving the format", it's a Hickman -esque Darwin bubble that's going to push Legacy players into essentially playing Modern '19.

    You need to see Modern Horizons as the first piece of a bigger picture:

    In two years or so, Modern and Legacy are going to be using 95% of the same cards.
    The biggest difference between them will be that Modern has 100 times the playerbase that Legacy has and prize support. So at that point why would you not play Modern? And then Legacy is dead.
    I want to get rid of the 1% (dual lands) that's keeping out 99% of Magic players from joining Legacy and trying to save the 4% (High Tides and Veteran Explorers and Dreadnoughts and Goblin Welders) that make Legacy heads better than Modern.

    The problem with using counterfeits or even proxies is many players, even most players, aren't interested in playing with counterfeit cards even if they could get away with it. You can order online, right now, a counterfeit of any RL card that's indistinguishable from the real thing without a loupe or blacklight (if that actually works anymore). But I'd rather play Pioneer or even Modern than use a counterfeit card.

    Vintage with proxies is a little different; it's ok, sort of like playing Shandalar or MTGO.
    I'm really curious as to how you can type in that straitjacket.

  11. #231
    bruizar
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    You guys are giving jiazhouhuaqiao way too much heat. I agree with many of the things he is saying, from his perspective on counterfeits to his rationale on Modern Horizons. Also, making legacy more affordable without changing the fabric of what makes legacy legacy, is to use the 3 card limit in the trinity manifesto. That's how you keep the character of legacy alive. At some point, people will come to this same conclusion, because as was stated earlier, if Legacy and Modern are too similar, modern will be the preferred format.

  12. #232

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    In two years or so, Modern and Legacy are going to be using 95% of the same cards.
    Sounds like wizards is going to reprint duals, Wastelands, Forces, Brainstorms, Dreadnoughts, Show and Tells, Reanimates, Entombs, Ichorids, Nether Shadows, High Tides, Ancient Tombs, Cradles, LEDs, Standstills and all the other legacy goodstuff 1 to 1 into modern legal sets?
    I'd be down for that and could see myself finally giving Modern a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    But I'd rather play Pioneer or even Modern than use a counterfeit card.
    That is up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    Vintage with proxies is a little different; it's ok.
    How is that different? Seriously! How?

    If I own every single card of a legacy deck, except for 3 Volcanics. It is not ok to prox them?
    But if I own every single card for a vintage deck, except for 3 volcanics, it suddenly is no problem anymore to prox them?

  13. #233
    bruizar
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty View Post
    How is that different? Seriously! How?

    If I own every single card of a legacy deck, except for 3 Volcanics. It is not ok to prox them?
    But if I own every single card for a vintage deck, except for 3 volcanics, it suddenly is no problem anymore to prox them?
    Power has always been deemed nigh unobtainable, even back when I spent €400 on a mint unlimited lotus many years ago. That's why proxies in vintage are generally deemed ok

  14. #234

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Power has always been deemed nigh unobtainable, even back when I spent €400 on a mint unlimited lotus many years ago. That's why proxies in vintage are generally deemed ok
    I fully understand that logic.
    But 1. duals are slowly getting into that range of unobtainabilty for most people
    and 2. If I owned power but lack volcanics would it be deemed not ok to use my proxy slots for duals?

  15. #235

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    In two years or so, Modern and Legacy are going to be using 95% of the same cards.
    The biggest difference between them will be that Modern has 100 times the playerbase that Legacy has and prize support. So at that point why would you not play Modern? And then Legacy is dead.
    The Modern community is rather abuzz with talk of the death of Modern. One of the leaders in the Modern community, ktkenshinx, creator of Modern Nexus and the administrator of the Modern side of MTGNexus, and historically optimistic, said yesterday:

    I also fully agree Modern will be replaced by Pioneer at this current rate, which I have said numerous times. I think 5 years is extremely generous for that prediction; I'm expecting Modern to be toast during 2021 at this current pace.

  16. #236

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Hasbro could sell the IP to their pre-modern cards to some group more interested in legacy/vintage. I have no idea what the value of this card pool is though, but it's clear they're not interested in it other than the annual masters set.
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  17. #237

    Re: How to save Legacy

    I think a lot of Modern players are playing Pioneer right now (out of frustration with Modern Horizons + bannings), but that rate isn't going to hold. Then they will go back to Modern. So long term Modern will be ok, and WotC is going to keep Modern floating with prize support and MH2.

    Modern Horizons gives us a pretty clear picture of how WotC sees nu-Modern. For example, Force of Negation is basically the FoW expy, and there isn't going to be a Wasteland reprint since it would break W6. You're not going to have Ancient Tomb. Ancient Tomb isn't reserve list so if nu-Modern was going to have Ancient Tomb it would have been reprinted in MH1.

    Although it would certainly fix the Astrolabe problem if they printed a Wasteland for Snow lands/ permanents.

    One thing that has surprised me is how slow Modern players have been to adapt Modern Horizons cards. It took them almost half a year to see that Urza and Yawgmoth are good cards, and there's still a lot of cards from that set which have no reason to be unplayed in Modern. Vintage and even Legacy have adapted quicker to the new paradigm.

  18. #238

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    I think a lot of Modern players are playing Pioneer right now (out of frustration with Modern Horizons + bannings), but that rate isn't going to hold. Then they will go back to Modern. So long term Modern will be ok, and WotC is going to keep Modern floating with prize support and MH2.

    Modern Horizons gives us a pretty clear picture of how WotC sees nu-Modern. For example, Force of Negation is basically the FoW expy, and there isn't going to be a Wasteland reprint since it would break W6. You're not going to have Ancient Tomb. Ancient Tomb isn't reserve list so if nu-Modern was going to have Ancient Tomb it would have been reprinted in MH1.

    Although it would certainly fix the Astrolabe problem if they printed a Wasteland for Snow lands/ permanents.

    One thing that has surprised me is how slow Modern players have been to adapt Modern Horizons cards. It took them almost half a year to see that Urza and Yawgmoth are good cards, and there's still a lot of cards from that set which have no reason to be unplayed in Modern. Vintage and even Legacy have adapted quicker to the new paradigm.
    A lot of Modern players are playing Pioneer right now because Modern was very stale for a long time pre-Okoban and because the upcoming Pro Tour is Pioneer.
    Now that the bans have freshened up the format again I agree numbers will probably bounce back (maybe not all the way, but mostly), especially after the Pioneer PT when (A) there's not a large upcoming premier event of a non-modern eternal constructed format and (B) Pioneer gets somewhat 'solved' by the PT results and the novelty wears off to a significant extent.

    Of course if Modern gets 0 official tournament support then it will die just like legacy but I don't think there's any indication this will happen

    Wasteland would do a lot more than break W6 when Tron, Amulet, Valakut etc are all highly competitive strategies and even generic multicolour decks don't have to build their manabases with any consideration to playing around Wasteland. Even if W6 didn't exist Wasteland would still basically turn the whole format upside down

    People figured out Urza was a solid card pretty fast; the reason why it didn't see the same amount of success for a large part of this year was because Hogaak was legal for a lot of that time, and only the printing of Oko really pushed it over the top. The recent yawgmoth results are kind of interesting but I think we need to see some more consistent performances to not write that off as a kind of 1-hit-wonder

    If you are so confident that there are MH1 cards not seeing play in modern then why not name them? People figured out Hogaak and Urza in modern before they saw any success in other eternal formats. The reason why e.g. Narset saw a lot more play in Vintage and Legacy isn't because Modern players are donks, it's just because Narset is much worse in Modern. That's not even an MH1 card, but Wrenn is basically the same story. I'm really curious as to which MH1 card you think is a Modern sleeper hit that nobody else has figured out yet

  19. #239

    Re: How to save Legacy

    It's better now than two months ago, but I would say Ouphe, Echo, Plague Engineer, Gobbo Engineer, Force of Vigor, Planebound Apprentice, Generous Gift, Geomancer's Gambit, Unsettled Mariner, Cordial Vampire, Cabal Therapist, Ephemerate, Watcher for Tomorrow, Vesperlark and Springbloom Druid.

    I have a good friend who plays Modern and two months ago I bought a box of Modern Horizons and asked him which cards he wanted, and the only cards he knew were W6 and Seasoned Pyromancer (Hogaak had already been banned). A lot of cards weren't on people's radars two months ago. Like, Modern wasn't playing Astrolabe two months ago.

    I read the Modern General too (it's often funny) and it's ridiculous that they are calling for Astrolabe to be banned when they aren't bothering to play Ouphe. Like, they're crying how Astrolabe kills Prison, when guess what is really good with Blood Moon? Ouphe.

    Vintage players were on Urza pretty fast. It was a card discussed on So Many Insane Plays podcast, back in June. Speaking of podcasts, I've been listening to older episodes of Leaving a Legacy... kind of slow on Oko there guys.

  20. #240
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    just let them reprint everything except reserve and brainstorm into modern, then you dont need legacy anymore.

    ill make the jump as soon as i get the missing cards, considering my petdeck: vial goblins is almost the same in modern now
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