I've been playing since '94 as well and get excited about standard. The power level of every format is very high right now.Originally Posted by Deirex85
Whether you play:
Vintage ->Time Vault / Voltaic Key (ok in all fairness this combo has been outclassed for other stuff that provides value individually, still BROKEN though)
Legacy -> Painter Servant / Grindstone
Modern-> Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek (and Urza for infinite)
They are all very high in power level. Every format plays Karn, Oko, Teferi, Narset.
You don't have power9 in legacy or broken stuff like Mental Misstep, but you do have 4x ponder, 4x mox opal, 4x brainstorm, 4x monastery mentor, 4x lion's eye diamond, etcetera.
Doesn't matter since you've presumedly ignored me.
Force of Will, Brainstorm and Wasteland are not POWERFUL cards. They are BALANCED cards. And Legacy is not a POWER format. It was intended to be the FAIR format,and the SMART format.
If anyone hasn't been here since the beginning of Legacy, you'd be informed to read Adam Barnello's article series on the history of the format. Legacy was created by banning all of the power cards in Vintage, including Workshops and Bazaars. They certainly would have banned dual lands then as well if they had been $400 back then instead of $15.
Some highlights from his articles to keep in mind:
At the time, circa 2003, the 1.5 format was the bastard step-child of Vintage. The people who played it were ridiculed and cast off from the teat of the mother format. While Vintage (at the time, called Type 1) had a healthy and thriving metagame and plenty of players, 1.5 was a wasteland where only the few people obsessed with it even knew of its existence. It didn’t even have its own banned list – it was just the Type 1 restricted and banned lists combined, meaning any card banned or restricted in T1 was banned in 1.5. The decks of the time were all super-powered compared to the decks of today. There were 1.5 “power” cards, which were all super expensive – in the range of $100 or more for a playset. These cards, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra’s Workshop, Mana Drain, etc, were the pillars of the format, and on the backs of these the format took shape:The people I’d left behind when venturing into the world of academia had been busy. Some of them had become moderators on TheManaDrain.com, and when differences of opinion on what was best for the 1.5 portion of the site had arisen, they left the site to found mtgTheSource.com, which was the first dedicated forum to the development of 1.5.The intent was for a home to be created for players who would soon be feeling the effects of the impending Extended rotation. With the first rotation coming up, dual lands and the rest of the older cards would have no home other than the antiquated Type 1 format, or the expensive and overpowered Type 1.5 format. They wanted to solve a few problems in one swoop, and the result was Legacy.1.5 players were pissed. The format that they’d worked so hard to develop – literally from the ground up – had vanished in the blink of an eye. The cards they had worked to earn or win or break were devalued, and were mostly just fodder for eBay or trades. They had pimped out versions of illegal decks, they had nowhere to look for tech, and they basically had to start completely new with a format that only barely resembled something familiar.So try to understand my perspective, as someone who started in 1994 and was around when 1.5 got chopped into Legacy, why I find trying to sell Legacy as a POWER format pretty funny.Think about how much damage banning a single card like Jace would do to Standard. Think about how much damage banning more than one card – say, Jace and Preordain – would do. Now imagine that there are no PTQs, no Grand Prixs, and no SCG Opens. Imagine that the only events you play in are your FNMs, but you play in them as though each was Sunday of the Pro Tour. Now imagine they banned not only Jace and Preordain, but Primeval Titan, Valakut, Goblin Guide, Stoneforge Mystic – and just for good measure, banned Fauna Shaman and Vengevine, too. Now you’re scratching the surface of just how devastating these changes were. The 1.5 players had every right to be upset.
If you've purchased dual lands within the past five years, you seriously should examine them with a loupe if you want to know for certain they are not fakes. From some investigation that I've done over the past month, there's been around 500,000 - 1,000,000 high quality fake revised dual lands put into circulation over the past 5 years, and not just limited to China or Asia but all over the world. So basically between 1/2 and 3/4 of all revised dual lands are high quality fakes. There are also high quality fake betas as well but you'd be pretty stupid to buy a beta that looks fresh out of the pack.In addition please don't assume that my duals are fake, you have no way of knowing other than assuming because you disliked me disagreeing with your hyperbole bullshit, so you immediately decided to attack my personal purchasing decisions.
I can assure you that all my duals are legit as both me and several knowledgeable other players have checked them, I also only ever buy from legitimate sellers in my home country.
That's the sad thing about Legacy. It's stagnant because there's little or no growth in the playerbase. Everyone who wants Force of Wills basically already has them. So there's no point in WotC printing a million more copies of FoW or Wasteland, since there's no point in getting those cards if you can't get Volcanic Islands and Underground Seas. So as soon as you talked about buying dual lands with your paycheck, I pretty much knew you didn't start 25 or even 20 years ago.I don't owe you or anyone else shit so I will keep my duals for as long as I want and never ever feel bad about it.
You talk a lot of crap about "fighting" but what does that even entail for you? I'm an active member of my local legacy community and that is enough for me.
Edit: Ignored, there's no point in reading your weak attempts of gatekeeping, you do not get to decide what is and isn't nostalgia.
You also have no idea of how long most people have been playing so you're not impressing anyone with "I've been playing since 1994".
The only way to save Legacy is for those of us that care for it to organize and proactively find solutions to the issues that limit the growth of the playerbase and block Modern players from transitioning into Legacy players. That's why it's clear to me that getting rid of dual lands is a necessary and urgent step to save the Legacy format. Such a large shift would tumesce interest among Modern players to give Legacy a go. I don't think WotC wants to kill Legacy, but there's nothing more they can do to save it. It's in the hands of the community now. That's why I made this thread.
Last edited by jiazhouhuaqiao; 01-14-2020 at 02:40 PM.
I think having multiple decks that can win unobstructed T1 makes for a pretty powerful format, even if it is rare in the tournament scene. Avenues like T0 leylines and chancellors, surgicals (and other phyrexian mana cards), and forces (and probably others) give opponents the option to interact with them. Seems pretty powerful AND balanced to me.
What is the point of determining what is a "power" format?
he's making shit up. he wants legacy to die world wide because he can't play in china
Uhhhhh... Do you have any evidence to support this? A source (ha ha get it)? ANYTHING?
Yes. I've been doing the investigating that ESG recommended a few weeks back and about 100 posts ago. I hope to have enough sources and better information to submit a report to WotC.
I'm also getting a set of high quality counterfeits myself to figure out the ways to test them and I'll write a report once I do.
For now, you must know that feel and light tests DO NOT work. I've tried a blind feel test with revised cards and couldn't tell which one was counterfeit. And last month someone tried to sell me a fake Phyrexian Dreadnought and the first thing they did to try to prove it was real was the light test. I had a real MI Phyrexian Dreadnought with me and could tell it was a fake because the colors were *slightly* redder and the art was *slightly* less crisp than my real copy. And also I've had enough Mirage cards (including 2 Teeka's Dragons) to know that Mirage artifacts aren't reddish like that. So I would guess that a lot of the counterfeits were sold through light tests.
Needless to say I'm only buying judge Dreadnoughts now. Fake foils is an entirely different can of worms.
Interesting if true. Love to see that report.
Any printing error or damage from 25 year old inking is evidence of a forgery. Amazing how every card is fake!
This may well be the wrong place to say this, and if it is, I apologize.
I've added two people to my ignore list in the past week—that's twice as many as I'd added since I joined the site several years ago. I'm not trolling when I say that I genuinely don't know whether people even moderate this site anymore. Perhaps I was naïve to assume that people would engage in a rational discussion, but where did the constructive discourse go? Have the mods bailed? (cf. the DtBs.)
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
I don't care that much about the original thread, I just came in to say that using shocklands in legacy is nonsense bar specific deck interactions (e.g. Shadow). Yes they are only slightly worse than Duals, I'm aware of that. Nobody wants to deliberately play a worse deck anyway, even though it's only slightly worse.
I remember there was a moment around 2004-2007 when Vintage (type 1) was still going strong, and especially in Europe many players who couldn't afford Black Lotus, Moxen and other expensive cards tried to develop alternative strategies based around mana and artifact denial, such as chalice of the void cast for 0, null rod, kataki, and so on and so forth (e.g. the famous Fish decks). Long story short, worse decks never work: i can remember being at tournaments with a 50-50 split metagame (power-unpower) but only as much as two unpowered decks in the top8s. Why? Because they're worse.
Having a format where some players, and only those players, have access to the better cards, while all the rest is trying to develop alternative strategies by using clearly worse alternatives (because they can't afford or can't find the better cards) is exactly what killed vintage in first place. Youngsters, approaching players were being denied access to the format; unpowered players got sick of fighting uphill battles against people who could drop their hand on the board at turn1; and that's all she wrote.
There are plenty of places to play in China too if he wants, he's just a troll
Ok but if we get rid of dual lands, then it would be fair since no one would be using duals against shocklands. That's part of the point.
At this point keeping duals around is purposefully keeping players from joining Legacy by making it an unappealing option for them.
I have not gotten my set of counterfeit dual lands yet but let me show you a fake Meditate that I picked up last month from one of the most reputable stores in China.
One of these two Mediates is real and the other is a counterfeit. They both pass the light test and they both feel like Magic cards. Unless you know exactly what to look for, the only visual difference is a slight difference in color between the two cards. You cannot see the details that reveal the counterfeit without a loupe. Can you tell which one is the fake?
Look at the pale blue trim on the right edge of the card. On the counterfeit, a sliver of the pale blue bleeds across the black line into the main frame.
Look at the black border around the text book. On the counterfeit, this line is weak and fuzzy, while on the real card it is stark and solid.
This is really difficult to see in the picture but if you look at Susan Van Camp's name, on the counterfeit you can see a slight space between the white lettering and the shadow.
Finally look at the Tempest expansion symbol. On the real card, the white around the storm symbol is pure white, whereas in the counterfeit there is a little reddish bleed that discolors the white.
Those are the only differences that differentiate the real card and the counterfeit that can be discovered with a loupe.
Easily.. both are real!
None of the commonly known fake stores runs them! Why would they print 1 dollar commons to begin with. I don't want to offend you, but your behaviour seems either paranoid or trollish.
By the way you absolutely can tell the difference between fakes and real ones right away. It's a completely different cardstock and printing method. I mean even the best ones are super obvious. No loupe needed.
Apart from that this thread is about saving legacy, not detecting counterfeits.
One way to save it, would be a gentlemen's agreement to swallow it down if the person across the table uses counterfeits and simply shut up about it. I know for sure I have played people that used them. I couldn't care less. As long as they otherwise play fair and honestly, who gives a crap?
Private unsanctioned tournaments with smaller pricepools would be another one.
Open up a facebook group, rent a pub or something alike and you are good to go.
This way proxies could be legitimized as well.
Regarding the "get rid of duals" arguement..
Aahh.. I'm lacking words here. Yes you can do well with suboptimal lists.
I run suboptimal lists and petdecks myself.
But shocks are lightyears worse than real duals. No discussion.
You can call this guy paranoid or whatever (and the Chicken-Little attitude is definitely super fucking annoying) but I will give him props for actually taking the photos to explain. Meditate is a Reserved List rare (albeit not one of the more expensive ones) and even for confirmed fakes I have seen in the past (ie last few months) in person you need to assess a similar level of detail to confirm it. "Lol at your $1 common, completely different cardstock and printing, even best ones are super obvious" is just an ignorant thing to say. Maybe a few years ago this was true but you're not keeping up if you still think this. I'm above 50% to agree with him that 1 of those Meditate is fake. I'm going to examine some of my tempest cards when I get home (actual crap <$1 commons from ages ago) to see if they consistently match the features listed, I don't expect to find any of the flaws (colour bleed into expansion symbol, inconsistent borders around textboxes etc)
The problem is, if there are fakes that are as good as real, you wouldn't even consider them as fake and are thus unable to say that the fakes are really good.You say that fakes are easily identified because you only handled bad fakes.What makes you think the card stock is different or difficult to get? The paper suppliers are in Germany and France. Proprietary papers were not used in the first half of magic's existence. I believe it's Koehler and Zuber Rieder if you really want to know.
Why is the Tempest set symbol not fully white-spaced on one?
The counterfeiter did not use the same printing process as Carta Mundi.
If the fakes are as good as real unless you take out your personal electron microscope and vials of aqua regia to test them, then why is it a problem? Just play the game and stop worrying about your opponent's poverty.
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