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Thread: How to save Legacy

  1. #101

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Many games with combo decks end before the other deck manages to deal much damage, however many games are also drawn out and in these games a couple of points of damage will make a difference (in some non-negligible percentage of games). Edit: or well, whether that's a negligible percentage of games or not is the central question here, not intending to answer it. Maybe it's negligible, maybe not. Should depend on the deck..
    This

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    By "comparatively" priced you mean that we can compare them. Like we can compare the top deck in Legacy: UR Delver at 2500 dollars, and UG Whirza at 1400. A difference of over a thousand buckeroos.

    Shocks are not duals. Shadow excepted.

    Caverns are sixty, Taigas are a hundred and sixty, hundred bucks per card, blah blah blah.
    @FourDogsinaHorseSuit You are not being constructive. Shocks are nonbasics with multiple basic land types which allow for the construction of resilient fetchland heavy manabases. You even take damage at your own volition, so you don't get damaged by them 100% of the time and if you can't afford the damage, you don't have to unlike tapping a fetch land.


    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24256&d=369320&f=LE


    Card Kingdom
    $1988 (NM)

    TCGplayer
    From $1559

    Replace 2 volcanic island with 2 steam vents to knock $479.99*2 = $959.98 off the price

    <$1k top tier deck with the maximum downside of taking 4 extra damage, which in most matchups will be 0 or 2 damage.

    For someone arguing that the format is too expensive, exchanging 2 duals for 2 shock duals is a very small price to pay to attend a legacy event. Building a format starts with local tournament support. If you only host big events, you wont get new players because it makes no sense to spend thousands of dollars for 3 days of magic per year. Use the tournament winnings to save for a volcanic the way we used to do with proxy 10 vintage tournaments where the price was a Mox.

    Suboptimal lists win all the time. Don't attribute you losing to not having a volcanic island when it's probably your own skill as a pilot that leads to losses.

  2. #102
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    To jump in, wizards has also done a decent job of printing cards where you donít need to play duals.

    The list of actually good decks without duals is as high as itís ever been.

    Goblins and DnT are both playable, burn, elves (cradles only real expensive card), dredge, astrolabe control, ur Delver and go Depths can be played with shocks over duals (or with vistas and basics for the budget and life concious).

    Eldrazi is on the cheaper side of legacy decks as well, humans is also becoming better with every set and has an almost modern legal mana base.

    His thread has a very simple solution : functionally reprint duals, but short of that I believe wizards is actually trying.
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  3. #103
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by compacta_d View Post
    We've recently had an influx of standard/pioneer players at our locals.

    In [fixed] fact it's easy to be like "why play modern when you can play legacy for similar cost?" To ppl LOOKING at modern.
    I agree with this [edit: the general sentiment], a lot, and I think I'm repeating myself, but there will be an influx of players to MtG, probably, and Legacy is a great format so some players will end up there. I don't see legacy dying, but it's hard to say and it's very much up for time to tell. Actually, recently card prices are dropping and I think this also favors Legacy. I mean, I also see a lot of counter-arguments but I think these are the strongest ones. Like, price drops [edit: I had the impression there were price drops, may be wrong?] are because people are moving out of Legacy.. But I think it's more people worrying about card prices, just my speculation, and this worry is good because it means people move away from hoarding and investing in legacy staples, freeing them up for new players to join.. Of course it's actually both effects working at the same time, but I think the sobering effect of the price drop could be a good lasting effect for a couple of years.
    Last edited by pettdan; 01-12-2020 at 02:32 PM.

  4. #104

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    This


    @FourDogsinaHorseSuit You are not being constructive. Shocks are nonbasics with multiple basic land types which allow for the construction of resilient fetchland heavy manabases. You even take damage at your own volition, so you don't get damaged by them 100% of the time and if you can't afford the damage, you don't have to unlike tapping a fetch land.
    You know what's really not constructive? The guy who made a whole thread about how magic was dying because it was too expensive is now king ostrich of the price of Legacy. Shocks aren't duals. You can pretend all you want that they are but they're not. Playing them puts you at a disadvantage, and when you're intentionally hamstringing yourself it makes it a lot harder to get that prize money you mentioned to use to trade up for a dual. And also what's the payout your events? What is your net on average? Maybe 20 in credit an event if you're both winning and it's big enough? So just string together 8 wins and you'll finally afford that Tiaga from my previous post. 479 for a volcanic? a mere 24 away! Assuming they have them in stock, of course. All you have to do is take the deck you already know is worse than your opposition and be best.
    Just a quick question: In your own decks which do you run? Shocks or duals?

  5. #105

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    You know what's really not constructive? The guy who made a whole thread about how magic was dying because it was too expensive is now king ostrich of the price of Legacy. Shocks aren't duals. You can pretend all you want that they are but they're not. Playing them puts you at a disadvantage, and when you're intentionally hamstringing yourself it makes it a lot harder to get that prize money you mentioned to use to trade up for a dual. And also what's the payout your events? What is your net on average? Maybe 20 in credit an event if you're both winning and it's big enough? So just string together 8 wins and you'll finally afford that Tiaga from my previous post. 479 for a volcanic? a mere 24 away! Assuming they have them in stock, of course. All you have to do is take the deck you already know is worse than your opposition and be best.
    Just a quick question: In your own decks which do you run? Shocks or duals?
    My rationale behind magic's (not specifically legeacy) problems in general are connected to the velocity and power creep of the product. The constant influx of new sets contrasted against the lack of tournaments to play those cards. That's a different discussion though.

    Legacy's price itself is a separate problem. I have proposed my alternative to reducing the cost of the format with the Trinity Manifesto. The options are that and/or shock duals. Reserved list isn't going to go away. I am not arguing legacy is in a bad state. I'm trying to come up with ways to improve the current state.

    Shocks put you at a disadvantage yes. How big is that disadvantage? That depends on the deck you register, its matchups, whether you draw any of them in the first place or not, and if you are able to EOT fetch Steam Vents tapped or not. Running 1 Brazen Borrower instead of 2 Brazen Borrowers, or deciding which and how many counter magic you need to play is a much higher impact decision, because it's the lack of having the right interaction that leads you to losing life in the first place. If you have the right answers, that 2 or 4 damage does not matter.

    I'm confident that legacy is not played enough to say that the current decks are completely done evolving, and I can also safely say that you or I do not play without making any misplays. What I'm saying is, you don't have to spend money on duals before you are good enough to resolve brainstorm correctly. You are over optimizing the wrong things. A good pilot with shock duals will beat a medium pilot with duals. Your local legacy tournament doesn't have World's level players, eternal players are notoriously shitty pilots compared to your average standard grinder.

  6. #106

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Shocklands are nearly as good as dual lands. Which is exactly why jetisoning dual lands is the most painless way to removing one of the biggest barriers to growing the Legacy player base.

    If you are arguing that someone can take a deck and replace Volcanic Island with Steam Vents, then you should be on the side of getting rid of dual lands all together. Since really none of us cares about Legacy being a format where you compare wallets/ autism, so let's just get rid of the fact that $1000 buys you a 4 life advantage.

    Legacy without dual lands is still legacy.
    Modern with legacy imitations from future Modern Horizon sets like FoN, but without Wasteland or High Tide or Burning Wish or Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, is not legacy. A futured merged Modern/ Legacy format where everyone is playing a Delver or Whirza or Depths variant is not legacy. If you think Modern Horizons was good for Legacy, you've swallowed the bait. MH isn't to pull Modern players into Legacy. It's to push Legacy towards Modern.

    That's what we must fight to save.

  7. #107

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by compacta_d View Post
    In fact the most expensive legacy decks are actually bad. Looking at you Pox
    Pffffft. Pox can be had for around $750 and is literally the sickest deck in Legacy. The RL enchantments are fun but usually win more.

  8. #108
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Can this shitty hyperbole thread die already?

    Imo the only thing killing Legacy is a bunch of threads stating that "Legacy is dying" showing up here and on Reddit every few months.
    Perhaps I'm just lucky to live in a country where my salary allows me to buy the occasional dual land but honestly how many do you even need?

    In almost every deck I've played bar perhaps Delver variants I make an effort to avoid duals as much as I can.
    But I would NEVER want to remove duals form legacy, that's the shittiest idea ever taking away a big reason that many are playing Legacy at all, that being nostalgia and the chance to play with powerful cards.

  9. #109

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Deirex85 View Post
    Can this shitty hyperbole thread die already?

    Imo the only thing killing Legacy is a bunch of threads stating that "Legacy is dying" showing up here and on Reddit every few months.
    Perhaps I'm just lucky to live in a country where my salary allows me to buy the occasional dual land but honestly how many do you even need?

    In almost every deck I've played bar perhaps Delver variants I make an effort to avoid duals as much as I can.
    But I would NEVER want to remove duals form legacy, that's the shittiest idea ever taking away a big reason that many are playing Legacy at all, that being nostalgia and the chance to play with powerful cards.
    Lol. I recommend you get a loupe and check for yourself how much money you've squandered on fake cardboard.

    I know my dual lands are real since I got them out of Revised boosters.

    The problem with the dual lands isn't that they are expensive. A dual land isn't a Mox. Since, they WERE reprinted in Revised.

    The problem is that they create a hard cap on the ability of Legacy to grow the playerbase, especially since they are increasingly being used in Vintage and EDH.

    And secondly it's pretty tough to get Modern players to buy an entirely different set of expensive staples such as FoW, Wasteland, etc... in addition to dual lands, when they are already entrenched and invested in Modern cardboard. Seriously, no one actually *WANTS* to pay $400-$500 for an Island with an extra landtype.

    As for nostalgia, I started in 1994 so for me nostalgia is 4X Necropotence, Hymns, Sinkholes, some Demonic Consultations, a Strip Mine and a Sol Ring. Phil and Kaja Foglio art and Quentin Hoover.

    As for power, sorry but Brainstorms are not Ancestral Recalls and cheap jewelry is still cheap jewelry. If you want to play with the powerful cards, that's not Legacy. That's Vintage or EDH or Cube.

    And if you are not worried about the future for Legacy, you need to take a moment and give some serious thinking to the changes that have been happening over the past two years. WotC has made it clear that Legacy is OUT. So get the message. If you are not prepared to fight to save Legacy, then either sell out now, or look into investing in either a Black Lotus or a bunch of shitty shocklands, fastlands, checklands, darklands and other wtf lands for pioneer.

  10. #110
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    Lol. I recommend you get a loupe and check for yourself how much money you've squandered on fake cardboard.

    I know my dual lands are real since I got them out of Revised boosters.

    The problem with the dual lands isn't that they are expensive. A dual land isn't a Mox. Since, they WERE reprinted in Revised.

    The problem is that they create a hard cap on the ability of Legacy to grow the playerbase, especially since they are increasingly being used in Vintage and EDH.

    And secondly it's pretty tough to get Modern players to buy an entirely different set of expensive staples such as FoW, Wasteland, etc... in addition to dual lands, when they are already entrenched and invested in Modern cardboard. Seriously, no one actually *WANTS* to pay $400-$500 for an Island with an extra landtype.

    As for nostalgia, I started in 1994 so for me nostalgia is 4X Necropotence, Hymns, Sinkholes, some Demonic Consultations, a Strip Mine and a Sol Ring. Phil and Kaja Foglio art and Quentin Hoover.

    As for power, sorry but Brainstorms are not Ancestral Recalls and cheap jewelry is still cheap jewelry. If you want to play with the powerful cards, that's not Legacy. That's Vintage or EDH or Cube.

    And if you are not worried about the future for Legacy, you need to take a moment and give some serious thinking to the changes that have been happening over the past two years. WotC has made it clear that Legacy is OUT. So get the message. If you are not prepared to fight to save Legacy, then either sell out now, or look into investing in either a Black Lotus or a bunch of shitty shocklands, fastlands, checklands, darklands and other wtf lands for pioneer.
    based on your analysis, even modern is out.

  11. #111

    Re: How to save Legacy

    My point wasn't to play with shock lands.

    My entire point was that you can build a top tier deck that does NOT play dual lands at the same rate as a top tier deck with shocklands in place of duals.

    So you don't need to play an inherently nerfed deck.

    And yes to the point if a Magic player can afford/hustle a $1400 deck, then they can do the same for a $2400 deck. Magic is an expensive hobby. If the budget is that tight, then the player knows they are either playing the wrong format, or playing the budget decks in all formats. At that point you have access to things like Burn, post decks, or manaless dredge. Similar to the budget modern decks that cost a few hundred. I have been this player my whole life until a few years ago. My first Legacy deck was Oops all Spells, which is still very budget as well.

    It's VERY comparable. That is the fight that I fight with Magic players as much as possible. And provide links as well. I lend decks and help players find deals on singles whenever people are looking to sell low, or even in the multiple FB sell groups.

    I agree the "OMG LEGACY IS DEAD" posts cause more harm than good. I think the "OMG DUALS ARE TOO MUCH THEREFORE CAN'T PLAY" causes as much if not more harm.

    And yes the cards I mentioned that are expensive have fluctuating prices. I think it's silly to make the argument that Goyfs are less than Plateaus now, when before goyfs were $180 and plateaus were like $50. Cards fluctuate. Nature of the beast. Those were the top modern cards when I played that format. I don't know what they are now. Tarns? then use tarns as the example. The point stands despite fluctuating card prices.

  12. #112

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    based on your analysis, even modern is out.
    WotC cares enough about Modern to ban Oko there. That shows they CARE.

  13. #113

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Why do you engage with these obvious trolls?

  14. #114
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    WotC cares enough about Modern to ban Oko there. That shows they CARE.
    They also banned W6 in legacy the last time around...so they CARE

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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    As for power, sorry but Brainstorms are not Ancestral Recalls and cheap jewelry is still cheap jewelry. If you want to play with the powerful cards, that's not Legacy. That's Vintage or EDH or Cube.
    1) What in Hell are you talking about?
    2) If you don't think Legacy has powerful cards, why are you wasting your time here?
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  16. #116

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    1) What in Hell are you talking about?
    2) If you don't think Legacy has powerful cards, why are you wasting your time here?
    As far as #2 goes, it seems that he's here to tell everyone that their duals are fake and to sell out now because Legacy is dumb or something.

  17. #117

    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    1) What in Hell are you talking about?
    2) If you don't think Legacy has powerful cards, why are you wasting your time here?
    It just amuses me to see Legacy labeled as a power format.

    I remember the first time I ever saw a Legacy tournament being held and it was just people durdling with Brainstorms, Fetchlands and Sensei's Divining Tops. It was amusing.

    Lol. Legacy: Where you get to play with POWERFUL CARDS like Brainstorm, FoW and Wasteland!

  18. #118
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    ShOcKs ArE aBoUt As GoOd As DuAlS

    Yeah no lol. I tried this like 10-12 years ago. Brought GRW Zoo to a Legacy thing. Round one paired me up against a Merfolk deck. You know what happens when you curve out with a 3-color deck with fetches and shocks? You cut your life total in half in 3 turns. And you lose to decks that should never under any circumstances "out-aggro" you.

    Moving to shocks changes what's good in a pretty big way in my experience, enough that people would really need to rethink how viable certain decks are. I mean unless you're a total edgelord and you're happy to roll up to a venue with "Suicide Delver" whatever the fuck that pile looks like and start every game at 11 life?? Honestly that sounds sick af, you guys do that and I'll just bring Legacy Mirrorweave Kithkin, then WotC will look at the format and whinge "well we can't support THIS, it's a clown fiesta" and we can all go back to hating playing Arena, right
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  19. #119
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    It just amuses me to see Legacy labeled as a power format.

    I remember the first time I ever saw a Legacy tournament being held and it was just people durdling with Brainstorms, Fetchlands and Sensei's Divining Tops. It was amusing.

    Lol. Legacy: Where you get to play with POWERFUL CARDS like Brainstorm, FoW and Wasteland!
    Translation:

    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  20. #120
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    Re: How to save Legacy

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    It just amuses me to see Legacy labeled as a power format.

    I remember the first time I ever saw a Legacy tournament being held and it was just people durdling with Brainstorms, Fetchlands and Sensei's Divining Tops. It was amusing.

    Lol. Legacy: Where you get to play with POWERFUL CARDS like Brainstorm, FoW and Wasteland!
    In what scenario are legacy cards not powerful? Just because you have a very narrow view of what is considered powerful does not mean that Legacy is not powerful.

    In addition please don't assume that my duals are fake, you have no way of knowing other than assuming because you disliked me disagreeing with your hyperbole bullshit, so you immediately decided to attack my personal purchasing decisions.
    I can assure you that all my duals are legit as both me and several knowledgeable other players have checked them, I also only ever buy from legitimate sellers in my home country.

    I don't owe you or anyone else shit so I will keep my duals for as long as I want and never ever feel bad about it.
    You talk a lot of crap about "fighting" but what does that even entail for you? I'm an active member of my local legacy community and that is enough for me.

    Edit: Ignored, there's no point in reading your weak attempts of gatekeeping, you do not get to decide what is and isn't nostalgia.
    You also have no idea of how long most people have been playing so you're not impressing anyone with "I've been playing since 1994".

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