It's feasible. Many games you fetch basics first anyway, so you won't always lose life.
Where does lifeloss hurt us the most? Other than Burn, I would think vs decks like UR Delver and RUG Delver. Other aggro decks can present a clock, but have little disruption so you can just try to race them and go off turn 2-3. Against Delver I will usually play slower to go off the turn before I would die, sculpting to have the most resources to fight their disruption. So against them extra life loss could mean 1 less turn, making you a bit more prone to disruption. On the other hand, against these decks (Burn, Delver) you usually fetch basics (to beat Wasteland and Price of Progress) so shocks won't matter anyway.
Give it a try and see how it goes!
And if I use only common, what would the combination of lands be like?
Thanks a lot
So, Rodrigo Togores finished 9th with Jeskai Breach @ MKM Paris. Funily he doesn't play Oracle since he finds it a bad card.
Oracle's not bad, but Grapeshot is better. Grapeshot wins the game and also kills hatebears. Being able to kill Thalia, Collector Ouphe and Sanctum Prelate is a big deal.Originally Posted by Darklingske
AronGomu made 5th in MTGO Legacy Challenge last week with a pretty standard Jeskai list:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24529&d=371485&f=LE
Notable changes:
- Grapeshot over Thassa's Oracle
- 2 Pact of Negation
- 4th Enlightened Tutor
- No maindeck Seals
- 6 Forces!
- 3 Mentors in the board
This is in line with our discussions here, minus the wishboard. Pact is good. Maindeck Seals are unnecessary. Grapeshot is a better topdeck than Oracle. The biggest innovation is going up to 8 free counterspells to go off with less mana.
SoulStrong made 7th in the same event with a Jeskai list closer to MentalMisstep's (maindeck Seals, Thassa's Oracle, 3 ETutor, only 1 Mentor)
Dude, this is legacy forum not pauper.
Also, I've made 5-0 and 4-1 with the artifact centered list (my MTGO nick is FruitDuChene). I work with Bacon on the list, it's getting fast ans resillient. Sevinne's Feclamation is such a good card.
I also made 10th (6-2) yesteday in bologna at 4seasons.
I took Arongomu list on monday, spoke with him, and tried it a little bit with the intention to bring it on sunday.
I made a few changes but the core is that.
this is what i've changed:
-2 FoN -1Pact
+2 Pierce +1 Teferi
The reason i dislike FoN is that it doesn't protect our combo, while pierce is more interactive of course; FoN provides you a fast answer to t1 chalice or trini or some other treath in g1, but nothing that you can't answer with teferi.
I found well with the pierce, while i used teferi only two times (once get countered).
i see no reason to play md seal, there's no treat in g1. the only things to take care in g1 is sanctum prelate on 2 with mother of runes on the board.
thassa/grapeshot: grapeshot let you win when thassa let you win, but also is an answer to g1 delver or generally speaking to buy time (note: usually it doesn't kill prelate, pre-side if they know what we are playing they name "2"; postboard we have access to plowshares and it should be a little bit easy)
Generally speaking i think Delver is the worst mu. i don't like the mentor plan against them (i faced 3 delver yesterday, always boarded in mentor), he comes down at best on turn 3 but they have daze, turn 4 is better but is you're lucky but then you have to protect him.
This is his list:
3 Tarn
4 Strands
2 Vista
1 SC Plains
1 SC Mountain
2 SC Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic
4 FoW
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Intuition
1 T3feri
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
3 Orim's Chant
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Breach
4 BF
2 Predict
1 FS
2 Pierce
4 LED
3 Petal
SB:
1 SCPlains
2 Serenity
3 Wear//Tear
3 StP
2 Silence
4 Mentor
Are those who are cutting maindeck Seal of Cleansing just hoping to have Force of Will for any Chalice of the Void in game one?
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
That's why I argue that the win con should be Burning Wish. You then run 3-4 Wishes and the solution to COTV is FOW or Wish->non 1 CMC enchantment hate.
Maindeck Seal cannot answer Chalice @ 1 (stops ETutor and cantrips to find Seal) or Chalice @ 2 (stops Seal). It's only good against Chalice @ 0. What are the chances of seeing a blind Chalice @ 0 in Game 1?
If you do, there's still Force of Will and some lists running maindeck bounce or Burning Wish.
Congrats on your 10th place finish!
Yeah good point, but that's only if they know. Game 1 if you open T1 fetch Island, Ponder, T2 Brainstorm, uncracked fetch Go... will play Prelate @ 2? Even if you FoW their Vial or Thalia, you still look like any other Xerox deck. Maybe they name 1. Postboard yeah then we get more answers.
If you've been scouted or are known for always playing Breach, then that game 1 surprise factor gets worse and MD Chain of Vapor may be a good idea (1 cmc answer for resolved Chalice @ 2 or Prelate @ 2).
The main reason why I play Seal of Cleansing is that you can respond to t1 Chalice with E-Tutor and blow it up afterwards (which sets your cantrips free again). I also like having it md for the mirrors, but can definitely see it being wrong.
Couldn't you respond with E-Tutor into Breach/LED/Station and then just go off? We can win through Chalice @ 1. If we have 2 of 3 pieces, E Tutor can get the 3rd. Even if we just have Breach or Brain Freeze, we can tutor for Station/Breach and mill into LED or Petal to win.
This line only seems relevant when they have Game 1 T1 Chalice @ 1 on the draw, we have access to white mana (didn't mainphase a Ponder or Preordain and left an uncracked fetch/Petal), we don't have Force or Pierce to counter it, we have ETutor in hand, we're missing both Breach and Brain Freeze (can't ETutor for the win), and we expect to need other 1 cmc cards (more cantrips). How often will those stars align? It's great for a 2x ETutor + Brainstorm hand. What about all the other Game 1s where you draw Seal and it could have been a more flexible card like a counter, Chant or bounce?
It does seem good for the mirror match, one of the few ways to kill Breach through Silence.
All of the Chalices cast against me so far have been for zero.Maindeck Seal cannot answer Chalice @ 1 (stops ETutor and cantrips to find Seal) or Chalice @ 2 (stops Seal). It's only good against Chalice @ 0. What are the chances of seeing a blind Chalice @ 0 in Game 1?
There's also a drawback to playing Grapeshot instead of Thassa's Oracle (other than it not pitching to Force of Will): If you have to go off using Grinding Station, you may not end up with a big enough graveyard to generate enough storm.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Lucky. They always name 2 on me, which is much worse because it also gets half of my answers. I run 2 Chain of Vapor main and 2 Burning Wish to fetch Meltdown\Vapor Snag.
Grinding Station is only there to find a BF.
You're not trying to generate a lot of storm with Grinding Station, you're using Grinding Station to dig for BF or Tomescour (which in turn digs for BF). Also you need very little storm to win with Grapeshot. You only really need 7 prior to casting Grapeshot for 8 followed up by escaping Grapeshot again for 9 (or 8 storm prior for 9+10). Very rarely do I not double cast Grapeshot unless I went through a Tomescour playline and all my BF's were in the bottom half of my library.
Double cast completely slipped my mind. I was concerned about the situation where you have to Grinding Station through most of your deck because all four Brain Freezes happen to be near the bottom.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Well lets see - suppose you go off around turn 3 that means you have 50 cards in the deck. You've cast Breach + Grinding Station + 0 mana artifact. That's 3 storm right there. Each loop adds another storm count so if you double cast you need to only go through 6 loops for any grapeshot. So you'll have 32 cards left in the deck when your grapeshots can be lethal. You're now looking for a way to generate enough mana to win which requires 9 cards in grave (3 for LED + 6 for double cast Grapeshot). Can't help you with the 3 cards for LED, but as soon as you get BF you can get Escape LED + discard around 3 cards plus now you can sacrifice Grinding station and all that -> into Escape BF. So really you can keep grinding until you have 9 cards in the library. The chances of all 4 BF being in the bottom 9 cards is about % 0.0258. That is really really low. . . .
Edit- might've got the math wrong a tad - you need to double cast LED to double cast Grapeshot so you're hoping to get BF prior to 12 cards in library. If you include LED and BF in that mix, you're hoping to get BF prior to 14 cards in library. Chances of all 4 BF being in the bottom 14 cards is % 0.205. Still less than 1%.
In game 1? How do they always know what you're playing?
Did the math on a previous page. You only need 3 cards in graveyard for Grinding Station to go off, as long as you don't punt priority. You only have to dig into a Brain Freeze, then Brain Freeze gives you enough graveyard to win. Grapeshot only needs storm 9, sometimes less. You cast Grapeshot twice.There's also a drawback to playing Grapeshot instead of Thassa's Oracle (other than it not pitching to Force of Will): If you have to go off using Grinding Station, you may not end up with a big enough graveyard to generate enough storm.
You could have all 4 Brain Freezes at the bottom or Surgically Extracted, in which case you'll need more than 3 cards in GY before going off but there are still lines that work via double Grapeshot. You'll have enough storm, you just need the mana and cards to escape it. In the Burning Wish versions there are even more outs, and the expense of less SB space for StP.
Relatively small local paper metagame.In game 1? How do they always know what you're playing?
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
It's worth noting that Force of Negation isn't free on the turn you're going off. And Pact of Negation is strong on the turn you're going off but usually just dead or Force of Will fodder otherwise. If your goal is to ram through the combo ASAP, then you might want more Pacts. I felt two was one too many. It's mana-efficient but way more narrow.
Aside from the core combo pieces, the cantrips, and the free counterspells, there are a number of different lists seeing play, and one could easily be better in one event and worse in another. The Togores list looks really soft to Ancient Tomb decks but well-positioned against the mirror and Thalia decks, so I don't think there's a definitively best version of this deck. I think it's going to come down to which decks you expect to play against and which strategies you want to be more insulated against.
I've faced Chalices on zero through 2. Typically the first one comes down on zero and the second one comes down on 2. If there are three, the order has always been zero, 1, 2.
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