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Thread: Escape Brain Freeze

  1. #261
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Still testing out some lists and will post with results but just decided to write out all the lines of Play and have them easily accessible:
    • Breach + LED + BF = Win (1R, at least 3 other cards in grave/hand to start)
    • Breach + Petal + BF = Win (2R to start. Petal for U -> Breach -> BF for 9+ cards -> Escape Petal -> Escape Petal -> Escape BF -> win)
    • Breach + LED + TomeScour = Win (1R, at least 3 other cards in grave/hand to start. Loop Tomescour and LEDs till you get BF and then just win)
    • Breach + Petal + TomeScour = 75%-99% Win (1UR, at least 1 other card in grave for 75% and X additional cards in exile for each about additional 4%s to start. Petal -> Tomescour -> Breach -> Escape Petal -> Escape Tomescour, loop till you get LED then loop LED and tomescour till you get BF)
    • Breach + LED + Gamble = Win (1R, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RU an average of 6.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RR and 3 other cards in hand/grave to start), Breach -> LED -> Escape Gamble -> BF -> escape LED -> Escape BF, Win)
    • Breach + Petal + Gamble = Win (1R, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RU an average of 6.6 other cards in hand/grave to start). Breach -> Gamble for LED -> cast or escape LED -> escape Gamble for BF -> escape LED -> escape BF, win)
    • Breach + Gamble = Win (1RR, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start. Breach -> Gamble for LED -> cast or escape LED -> escape Gamble for BF -> escape LED -> escape BF, win)
    • Gamble + Petal = Win% equal to (Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble-1)/(Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble) (1RR, and about 9-12 cards (haven't figured out average) in grave to start Gamble for Breach -> Breach -> Petal -> Escape Gamble for BF -> Escape Petal -> Escape Petal -> Escape BF, win)
    • Gamble + LED = Win% equal to (Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble-1)/(Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble) (1RR, and about 6-9 cards (haven't figured out average) in hand/grave to start Gamble for Breach -> Breach -> LED -> Escape Gamble for BF -> Escape LED -> Escape BF, win)
    • Breach + LED + 2 Emrys (3 cards other cards in hand or grave and need 2 artifacts in play but you can use this to cycle through Emrys similar to tomescour to find BF to win).
    • Echo + LED (together they draw 7 hoping you float enough mana and repeat or have enough mana to use other line of play if possible).
    • Wish+LED (1B+9 cards in hand or grave, 1BU+6 cards in grave, or 1RR +9 cards in grave. Cast LED ->1B - Cast IT to search for Breach ->Crack LED in response for RRR ->Cast Breach (R floating) ->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast and Crack LED for BBB (BBBR floating) ->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast IT for BF (BB floating) ->Hopefully have one mana still open for U or 3 more cards in graveyard for another LED crack for UUU - Cast BF win. OR Cast LED1RR -> Cast Wish->Crack LED in response for BBB->Wish gets IT->Cast IT for Breach (RB floating)->Cast Breach->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast and Crack LED for BBB (BBB floating)->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast IT for BF (B floating)->Exile 3 cards in graveyard - Cast and Crack LED for UUU - Cast BF win.
    Last edited by Cire; 01-22-2020 at 01:05 PM.
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  2. #262
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Thanks for posting your list AngryBacon!

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryBacon View Post
    - 1 Emry, 1 Faithless Looting, 2 Manamorphose are my testing slots
    When I found Looting was bad, it was in the older cantrip-heavy lists with 4 Looting, 0 Emry, 0 Echoes, and 4 Rite of Flame. Echo should make Looting better (good card to pitch and recovers card disadvantage). Emry makes Looting better too. I see why it's good in your list.

    1 Consign and 1 Wear // Tear used to be 2 copies of Chain of Vapor.
    Yeah I would avoid Chain of Vapor. They can bounce your Breach or Defense Grid, and it can't get around Chalice @ 1.

    Considering a Plateau (lost me a game), instead of either a basic or a fetchland, but fetchlands are paramount and all of the 3 basics enables longer games against Delver and other blue wasteland decks
    I've been switching between a basic and 1 Plateau. Sometimes you want to fetch Plateau for optimal mana... but other times you get 1 landers that would be keepable if you had any land other than Plateau. Or you face Delver and wish you had more basics. Haven't crunched the odds on which is bad more often. In the lists with 4 Brainstorm + 4 Ponder +0-2 Preordain, lands that don't tap for blue are bad, even worse if they also die to Wasteland. You have more red costs, so maybe Plateau is better.

    Shattering Spree could be replaced with By Force, Meltdown or Shenanigans. They all have pros and cons, so I'll make a table with those in to compare and pick one more easily based on the deck itself. Similarly to what We've done here
    I default to Shenanigans but needs testing. It'll depend on the build too. In builds that play out mana rocks early (e.g. Mox Opal) or run Defense Grid, Meltdown is a bigger liability. In builds where the only artifacts are Petal and LED, Meltdown seems good.


    - Emry is greatly underrated and maybe warrants a second Defense Grid
    Emry gets stronger if you run Mox Opals, which I think are worth it in Echo builds. I'd try out Opals over your Manamorphose. Manamorphose is a weak slot. Opal fixes too.

    I still think Thassa's Oracle is win-more and much worse than Burning Wish at least in game 1
    Agreed

    Haven't had time to test Experimental Frenzy
    Curious about this. You have the experience playing it in Doomsday, you're probably the best one to test it out and find the correct lines to use it.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-14-2020 at 11:06 PM.

  3. #263
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    The concern is more that you can't cantrip into brain freeze on turn 2 without fast mana, so it's not a reliable way to self-mill for a turn 3 win.
    Have you tested it much? From all my testing, the deck doesn't need self-mill for a turn 3 win. Turn 3 goldfishes are easy with almost any configuration of the deck. There are a dozen ways to set it up. Much harder is winning through disruption or winning before turn 3 consistently. If self-mill doesn't further either of those goals, do we need it?

    There are many openings to BF yourself. I didn't realize how many until I started playing a lot of games.

    Examples:
    Turn 1 Cantrip. Turn 2 Petal, cantrip, BF self for 9. Turn 3 1R: Breach. Win.
    Turn 1 Cantrip. Turn 2 pass. Opponent plays 2 spells. EOT Brain Freeze self for 9. Turn 3 upkeep ETutor for Breach, Breach, win.
    Turn X Cast LED, opponent Forces it, Brain Freeze yourself for 9 (to have enough GY to escape the LED and win next turn).
    Turn 3 opponent's EOT (they cast 2 spells). Brainstorm. Brain Freeze yourself for 12, also milling the 2 bad cards you put back.
    etc...

    Lists with Manamorphose, Mox Opal, Echo of Eons, Emry or rituals obviously open up more turn 1-2 options. I posted a goldfish where I milled 48 cards on turn 1.

    It comes up more often turn 3 or later, if you've eaten disruption and need to recover. Milling for 9-15 cards midgame G1 is enough to turn topdeck Underworld Breach into a win with virtually anything in the GY. It also turns on lines where Gamble + Lotus Petal = win, Enlightened Tutor = win, or Burning Wish = win (Sevinne's Reclamation), again helping when you're in topdeck mode.

    The nice thing about BF self-mill is it uses a core combo card instead of needing another slot, so even if it doesn't always speed you up for turn 3, it's not costing any space.

  4. #264
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    ...

    It comes up more often turn 3 or later, if you've eaten disruption and need to recover. Milling for 9-15 cards midgame G1 is enough to turn topdeck Underworld Breach into a win with virtually anything in the GY. It also turns on lines where Gamble + Lotus Petal = win or ETutor + Lotus Petal = win (with cantips in GY), again helping when you're in topdeck mode.
    This is where I think the strength of the deck lies. We aren't faster than Reanimator or Belcher, and we aren't as resilient as say Sneak and Show. But we can literally win out of nowhere, with almost no resources, especially in topdeck mode. That's why I don't think we can use this combo in an all-in shell. The power of it is that it's a 1 card combo with setup, and we need to have other cards in the deck to provide that setup. That's the role of cantrips\silence\countermagic\etc. We need those slots not just to find UB, but also to find other answers to our opponent. That's why I'm thinking that FoW is probably going to make it's way into my list sometime soon.

  5. #265
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    Why exactly is Emry good here? She doesn't have haste, so she isn't particularly good on the combo turn, and she only returns artifacts, so she doesn't really enable the combo more than tome scour does. I feel like I'm missing something important when it comes to including her.
    I find she is stronger in the explosive lists with more artifacts (e.g 4 Mox Opal). In those lists she often comes out on turn 1, milling 4 early. Then there's a chance you untap with her to reuse a Petal/Opal/LED. I think she would be bad in your version.

    On the combo turn you can chain 2 Emrys (legend rule) to act as a makeshift Tome Scour. She's less efficient than Tome Scour on the combo turn (mills 4 instead of 5, and needs 2 copies to go off instead of 1). The advantage comes if you play her turn 1-2 and get to untap with her, or if you get disrupted. If you rarely untap with her (e.g. you can't play her until the combo turn or she draws removal) then Tome Scour is better.

    In the first iteration of my build with Emry/Echo/Mox/Narset, I also had Sol Lands and Chalice (so 1cc cards like Tome Scour were not playable) and Paradoxical Outcome (which has synergy with Emry). Then I cut Sol Lands and Chalice and eventually PO (win-more), but Emry stayed because she was still playing well with the high artifact count. She may not be good in all builds.

    EDIT: I tested AngryBacon's list a few times. I don't like Emry there. Not enough artifacts to work consistently. Overall the deck doesn't seem much more explosive unless you get a strong Echo hand. Both Echo and Emry are more explosive with a higher artifact count.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-15-2020 at 11:24 AM.

  6. #266
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Ok this build speeds things up enough to make the critical turn 2 instead of 3, but at the cost of protection.


    //Lands: 14
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Snow-Covered Island

    //Artifacts: 18
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Chrome Mox
    3 Defense Grid

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Underworld Breach

    //Spells: 24
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gamble
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Ponder
    4 Brain Freeze
    3 Burning Wish
    3 Echo of Eons

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Tome Scour
    1 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Fragmentize
    1 By Force
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Wear // Tear
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Serenity
    1 Pithing Needle
    3 Silent Gravestone


    Last few Goldfishes
    T1: 8
    T2: 20
    T3: 6
    Longer: 2

    It's fast! And still consistent, with all the tutors and wishes.

    Flex Slots: 2 Ponder, 1 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Brain Freeze
    I had those slots as 4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch before and it was still playing well. Not sure if Ponder or Emry is better overall. Emry's more explosive in this build than most, but she still doesn't fix bad hands while Ponders/Tutors put cards in hand.

    Echo+LED as well as the high density of tutors lets you be greedy with mulligans. Mull to 4 can still be a turn 1-2 win thanks to the London Mulligan (e.g. keep Land, LED, Gamble, Petal from 7 cards -> Gamble for Echo. Echo into a fresh 7 cards with 1 mana open)

    The drawback is that there is rarely any protection and Echo of Eons can backfire horribly by feeding the opponent countermagic.

    If speeding up 1 turn isn't enough to justify losing so much protection, then I would go with the slower list with room for more cantrips and protection slots


    //Mana: 19
    15 lands
    4 Lotus Petal

    //Core combo: 12
    4 Underworld Breach
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Brain Freeze

    //Fixing: 15
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    3 Burning Wish

    //Protection: 7
    4 Silence
    3 Defense Grid

    //7 other flex slots:
    x Gamble
    x Tome Scour
    x Preordain
    x Swords to Plowshares
    x Sevinne's Reclamation
    x Spell Pierce
    x Force of Will
    x Pact of Negation
    x Teferi, Time Raveler
    x Snapcaster Mage
    x Sphinx of Foresight
    x Hall of Heliod's Generosity


    This shell goes off turn 3 with protection consistently. It can also recover from hate well.

  7. #267
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Thoughts on a singleton maindeck Grinding Station as a way to use Etutor to "tutor up" a BF? Basically you'd need 1 card in graveyard then repeat:

    Sacrifice LED to GS -> 4 in yard
    escape LED -> 1 in yard
    if BF isn't in yard, repeat
    Sacrifice GS to GS -> 5 in yard
    Crack LED for UUU -> 6 in yard
    Escape BF as normal -> Win

    Probably is better in the Emry shell.

  8. #268
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    Thoughts on a singleton maindeck Grinding Station as a way to use Etutor to "tutor up" a BF? Basically you'd need 1 card in graveyard then repeat:

    Probably is better in the Emry shell.
    Works even better in the Emry shell using Mox Opal instead of LED, because you can even float mana between sacrifices!

  9. #269
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze


    Someone named PVDH posted a screenshot of them winning with a Brain-Freeze Breach brew. Said they'd post the list once their tournament ends.

    Interestingly enough there's a TNN and a Brazen Borrower in the yard, perhaps in from the board. They're also running Young Pyromancer, which seems comparable to Mentor as a plan B in a deck as low to the ground as ours. Someone pointed out that they'd tweeted out a list earlier that seems close to this.

  10. #270
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Ark411 was also just playing against someone with the user name MentalMistep, who was on a UWR version.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  11. #271
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Still testing out some lists and will post with results but just decided to write out all the lines of Play and have them easily accessible:
    • Breach + LED + BF = Win (1R, at least 3 other cards in grave/hand to start)
    • Breach + Petal + BF = Win (2R to start. Petal for U -> Breach -> BF for 9+ cards -> Escape Petal -> Escape Petal -> Escape BF -> win)
    • Breach + LED + TomeScour = Win (1R, at least 3 other cards in grave/hand to start. Loop Tomescour and LEDs till you get BF and then just win)
    • Breach + Petal + TomeScour = 75%-99% Win (1UR, at least 1 other card in grave for 75% and X additional cards in exile for each about additional 4%s to start. Petal -> Tomescour -> Breach -> Escape Petal -> Escape Tomescour, loop till you get LED then loop LED and tomescour till you get BF)
    • Breach + LED + Gamble = Win (1R, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RU an average of 6.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RR and 3 other cards in hand/grave to start), Breach -> LED -> Escape Gamble -> BF -> escape LED -> Escape BF, Win)
    • Breach + Petal + Gamble = Win (1R, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start (or 1RU an average of 6.6 other cards in hand/grave to start). Breach -> Gamble for LED -> cast or escape LED -> escape Gamble for BF -> escape LED -> escape BF, win)
    • Breach + Gamble = Win (1RR, an average of 9.6 other cards in hand/grave to start. Breach -> Gamble for LED -> cast or escape LED -> escape Gamble for BF -> escape LED -> escape BF, win)
    • Gamble + Petal = Win% equal to (Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble-1)/(Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble) (1RR, and about 9-12 cards (haven't figured out average) in grave to start Gamble for Breach -> Breach -> Petal -> Escape Gamble for BF -> Escape Petal -> Escape Petal -> Escape BF, win)
    • Gamble + LED = Win% equal to (Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble-1)/(Amount of cards in hand prior to casting Gamble) (1RR, and about 6-9 cards (haven't figured out average) in hand/grave to start Gamble for Breach -> Breach -> LED -> Escape Gamble for BF -> Escape LED -> Escape BF, win)
    • Breach + LED + 2 Emrys (3 cards other cards in hand or grave and need 2 artifacts in play but you can use this to cycle through Emrys similar to tomescour to find BF to win).
    • Echo + LED (together they draw 7 hoping you float enough mana and repeat or have enough mana to use other line of play if possible).



    I have done some testing and want to share also my results here:

    0. What colours do we run?!
    -> UR and the rest is 100% open so far for me

    1. We are a combo deck the question is do we want an transformation sb?
    -> so far Mentor SB where not what I needed

    2. Do we want an Mox Opal "Manabase"
    -> here I am still not sure it helps fixing the mana but it does not fill up our grave
    -> also see 5.

    3. Gravefiller like Tomescour, Looting and co MB
    -> gives us faster start g1 but makes our weakness even bigger g2&g3

    4. Entomb/Gambel
    -> both do + - the same in the combo
    -> entomb becomes a weak card g2/g3
    -> gambel can get us anti hate answers and breach
    -> entomb forces us to play B

    5. Mass Echo of Eons
    -> their was a really strong list postet a view pages back with 4 eons and 4 entomb 4 gambel
    witch uses this as a "semi" CA/Storm witch is good BUT
    witch each cyle you increase the chances that:
    -opp draws 0 hate then you have answers
    -you fizzel
    and it makes the grave dependens even bigger // i think we want 1 echo for refilling our hand but not 4

    To have a better reference here is my latest test list:


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 18 Artifact
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Wishclaw Talisman
    2 Defense Grid
    // 4 Enchantment
    4 Underworld Breach
    // 12 Instant
    4 Brain Freeze
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Silence
    2 Orim's Chant
    // 14 Land
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Island
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Badlands
    1 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Scrubland
    // 12 Sorcery
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Ponder
    1 Echo of Eons
    4 Gamble
    // 12 Sideboard
    SB: 2 Hope of Ghirapur
    SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
    SB: 1 Consign // Oblivion
    SB: 1 Tome Scour
    SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
    SB: 1 Echo of Eons
    SB: 1 Grapeshot
    SB: 1 Massacre
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Thoughtseize
    SB: 3 Flex Spots


    Weakness Breach:
    - Disenchant; Quasali Pridemage; even Vial@3 and Flickerwisp can stop our combo
    - Collector Ouphe; Karn, the Great Creator
    - Leyline of the Void; Rest in Peace
    - ...


    We all here agree that we have a strong combo that can play arround a lot of stuff (Thalia, Chalice @1, CB with 0 on top, Surgical, ...) [edit: with still slows us down/needs more setup]
    but we can be attacked from corners that normal storm normally not affected and we need to keep this in mind


    What was also clear for me after ~50 matches:

    1. We need a 2 storm engine (that is optimal not permanent based, none artefact and donīt needs the grave):
    -not sure if Ad Nauseum,Bonus Rounds, or a wired Hight Tide hybrid, Doomsday, show and tell sb?, ...
    -so far i donīt find a good solutions but we can be attacked easy when they now we need grave and a cmc2 enchantment in play

    2. My list has 0 problems vs blue control decks and suprisingly delver was also ok but:
    -permanent hate with preasure was a big problem not "winning the counterwar"
    -see 3 Flexspots but is this enough to win with %?

    3. See 2. from top:
    -I am not happy with mox opal and also not without him

    4. When we run Bruning Wish we should run Infernal Tutor in the SB



    LED Burning Wish (1RR 12cards)
    BW -> LED BBB -> IT for Breach
    Breach -> LED BBB 3 cards -> LED UUU 3 Cards -> IT 3 Cards -> BF win

    LED Burning Wish (2RR 6cards)
    BW -> LED BBB -> IT for Breach
    Breach -> LED 3 cards UUU -> IT 3 cards -> BF win

    Breach LED Tome Scour (1R 3card)
    Breach -> LED UUU
    -> TS 3 cards (UU/5)-> TS 3 cards (U/7)-> TS 3 cards (0/9)-> LED UUU 3 cards (UUU/6)->
    -> TS 3 cards (UU/8)-> TS 3 cards (U/10)-> TS 3 cards (0/12)-> LED UUU 3 cards (UUU/9)->
    -> TS 3 cards (UU/11)-> TS 3 cards (U/13)-> TS 3 cards (0/15)-> LED UUU 3 cards (UUU/12)->
    [each loop + 3cards in grave + 4 storm]

    Breach LED Tome Scour (1RU)
    Breach -> TS 5 cards ->LED UUU
    -> TS 3 cards (UU/7)-> TS 3 cards (U/9)-> TS 3 cards (0/11)-> LED UUU 3 cards (UUU/8)->
    -> TS 3 cards (UU/10)-> TS 3 cards (U/12)-> TS 3 cards (0/14)-> LED UUU 3 cards (UUU/11)->
    -> TS 3 cards (UU/13)-> TS 3 cards (U/15)-> TS 3 cards (0/17)-> LED UUU 3 cards (UUU/14)->
    [each loop + 3cards in grave + 4 storm]
    Last edited by Arcanis001; 01-17-2020 at 08:21 PM.

  12. #272
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanis001 View Post
    2. My list has 0 problems vs blue control decks and suprisingly delver was also ok but:
    -permanent hate with preasure was a big problem not "winning the counterwar"
    Yeah I do well against blue decks. If you struggle against permanent hate, consider more solutions to them. Your sideboard looks more like an anti-stormhate SB than an anti-GYhate SB.

    Running 2 bounce spells SB is not consistent enough to answer permanent hate, which they will mulligan into. We need a plan for T0 Leyline of the Void. Most of our lists run Wishable/Tutorable answers to permanents, things like:

    Reverent Silence
    By Force
    Meltdown
    Pulverize
    Serenity
    Fragmentize
    Massacre
    Pyroclasm


    Your board is light on answers to artifacts and enchantments. I can see why you would struggle. Leaning too hard on Defense Grid and Silence effects does not protect you from permanents.

    Some are running Force of Will or Spell Pierce to have earlier interactions. Thoughtseize is strong but can be slow on the draw.


    4. When we run Bruning Wish we should run Infernal Tutor in the SB
    [HR]
    LED Burning Wish (1RR 12cards)
    With a big graveyard, Wish for Sevinne's Reclamation can return Breach and/or LED, usually enough to win. Infernal Tutor does look better if you don't have it in GY from milling/countering but have a big yard for some reason.

    -------------

    The Grixis List above is interesting. FoW and IoK as protection (seems worse than Thoughtseize), Infernal Tutor as the tutor, YP instead of Mentor (not in white). Brazen Borrower looks strong SB. It seems better than other 1U instant bounce slots because it doubles as a backup win con once they board out removal.


    I am running this right now


    //Lands: 15
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Plains

    //Artifacts: 11
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    3 Defense Grid

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Underworld Breach

    //Spells: 30
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Silence
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Brain Freeze

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Silent Gravestone
    1 Serenity
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Brazen Borrower
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Tome Scour
    1 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Fragmentize
    1 Meltdown
    1 Pyroclasm


    This is an experiment to play more like a fair deck in disrupting the opponent, then pulling the storm trigger when ready. I'll have to see how StP plays. It might be better as Preordain, Thought Scour or Force of Will.

    I'm considering making room for 1 SB Infernal Tutor.

    Good luck everyone in trying out your variations of the deck now that it's legal!

  13. #273

    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Personally I think that any version of this deck that doesn't go all-in on the combo is going to be suboptimal but a thought on this:

    The key cards are:

    4 LED
    4 BF
    4 Underworld Break
    2 Burning Wish

    Personally I think Enlightened tutor is necessary so let's include that in as well, that plus about 20-25 mana sources (including or excluding accel) that leaves about 22-17 cards for plan B.

    There's two cards that seem that we can go in other directions with, mainly Enlightened tutor - in that it can search for answers (Look at Might Quinn) or other combos; or LED in that it can combine with Karn to accel out a Lattice.

    Now Quinn's main combo was RIP and Helm, obviously that combo doesn't really work with our combo. However there is another combo that is graveyard proof and searchable through Tutor - Painter. Intresting there is a WR painter deck in the established deck list called Painter Stone that also plays LED, (sometimes) Enlightened Tutor and Karn (my other idea above).

    Sort of playing off that list as a rough sketch:

    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    4 Underworld Break

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Astrolab
    3 Grindstone
    3 Defense Grid
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    3 Painter's Servant

    4 Brainfreeze
    2 Burning Wish
    2 Open Spots

    2 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Prismatic Vista
    3 Arid Mesa
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Scalding Tarn
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb

    //SB

    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Liquimetal Coating
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Grindstone
    1 LED
    1 Crypt
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Painter's Servant
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Sevinne's Reclamation

    I mean it has clear faults (mainly it seems bad at assembling either combo and no protection), but dividing the deck between the graveyard combo and another combo - with enlightened tutor being able to search for either combo plus accel and the oops I win of Karn seems like a solid plan B?
    I'd prefer the grindstone route too. Thinking this:

    3 led
    4 brainfreeze
    4 underworld

    3 karn
    4 emry
    3 grindstone
    3 painter
    1 thassa

    4 fow
    4 bstorm
    2 ponder
    3 reb
    2 mishras bauble

    3 mox opal
    3 u artifact land
    3 red artifact land
    4 tombs
    9 L

    SB
    1 led
    1 grindstone
    1 painter
    1 tormods crypt
    Last edited by kinda; 01-20-2020 at 07:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  14. #274
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yeah I do well against blue decks. If you struggle against permanent hate, consider more solutions to them. Your sideboard looks more like an anti-stormhate SB than an anti-GYhate SB.

    Running 2 bounce spells SB is not consistent enough to answer permanent hate, which they will mulligan into. We need a plan for T0 Leyline of the Void. Most of our lists run Wishable/Tutorable answers to permanents, things like:

    Reverent Silence
    By Force
    Meltdown
    Pulverize
    Serenity
    Fragmentize
    Massacre
    Pyroclasm


    Your board is light on answers to artifacts and enchantments. I can see why you would struggle. Leaning too hard on Defense Grid and Silence effects does not protect you from permanents.

    Some are running Force of Will or Spell Pierce to have earlier interactions. Thoughtseize is strong but can be slow on the draw.




    With a big graveyard, Wish for Sevinne's Reclamation can return Breach and/or LED, usually enough to win. Infernal Tutor does look better if you don't have it in GY from milling/countering but have a big yard for some reason.

    -------------

    The Grixis List above is interesting. FoW and IoK as protection (seems worse than Thoughtseize), Infernal Tutor as the tutor, YP instead of Mentor (not in white). Brazen Borrower looks strong SB. It seems better than other 1U instant bounce slots because it doubles as a backup win con once they board out removal.


    I am running this right now


    //Lands: 15
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Plains

    //Artifacts: 11
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    3 Defense Grid

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Underworld Breach

    //Spells: 30
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Silence
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Brain Freeze

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Silent Gravestone
    1 Serenity
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Brazen Borrower
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Tome Scour
    1 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Fragmentize
    1 Meltdown
    1 Pyroclasm


    This is an experiment to play more like a fair deck in disrupting the opponent, then pulling the storm trigger when ready. I'll have to see how StP plays. It might be better as Preordain, Thought Scour or Force of Will.

    I'm considering making room for 1 SB Infernal Tutor.

    Good luck everyone in trying out your variations of the deck now that it's legal!
    StP was ok, but Iíve found Chain of Vapor to be better since it also acts as MD permanent hate.

  15. #275
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    StP was ok, but Iíve found Chain of Vapor to be better since it also acts as MD permanent hate.
    What about just playing Brazen Borrower then? Does the 1 cmc of Chain make a difference?

  16. #276
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    What about just playing Brazen Borrower then? Does the 1 cmc of Chain make a difference?
    It does. Your opponents will/should go after 2cmc spells with Chalice and Prelate.

  17. #277
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryBacon View Post
    It does. Your opponents will/should go after 2cmc spells with Chalice and Prelate.
    I really like the idea of Brazen Borrower as a split since it can answer chalice on 1, which stops all your cantrips. I am currently on 3 chain of vapor MD and 1 Echoing Truth SB. Iím planning on going up to 2 Brazen Borrowers SB though simce they double as a backup wincon.

    Iím not very high on Silent Gravestone. Shutting off your SR and Hall of Heliods feels like it does more harm than good. Also you can fight through a surgical on LED or BF anyway. Iím currently looking for a better option thatíll hopefully answer tomodís and bog, which I see more often.

  18. #278
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Ark411 was also just playing against someone with the user name MentalMistep, who was on a UWR version.
    That's Stefan SchŁtz, Austrian Legacy veteran.
    I riffle shuffle so hard. Bitch, my Tabernacle twitters #metoo.

  19. #279

    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Iíve been playing this list on mtgo:
    3-2, 4-1, 1-0 so far. One of the losses was a time out with deterministic win on board g3. My fault I was playing without a mouse and took too much time thinking in a tough g2 win vs miracles.

    Intuition has been medium, but I really like that this deck gets to be almost mono-blue, and allows force of will to shine (and it has been very good). Being able to play veil instead of something like silence is also huge. Flusterstorm has been amazing, and I think it belongs in probably any list not on a defense grid type plan.

    4 underworld breach
    2 burning wish
    4 brain freeze
    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder
    4 thought scour
    4 intuition
    4 force of will
    3 flusterstorm
    3 veil of summer
    4 led
    4 petal
    4 scalding tarn
    4 misty rainforest
    1 flooded strand
    3 island
    2 volcanic island
    1 tropical island
    1 taiga

    1 rev silence
    2 shenanigans
    1 ancient grudge
    3 cov
    1 echoing truth
    1 grape shot
    1 gamble
    2 surgical extraction
    1 echo of eons
    1 flusterstorm
    1 veil of summer


    Sb plan needs a little work. With intuition I like bringing in a shenanigans vs any deck capable of null rod or cage. Leave one in board to wish for and 1 in md to have in an intuition package.

    I agree with lemon that silent gravestone isnít necessary. Most games you should be able to set up a situation where you can play around it (and Iím shaving thought scour vs surgical decks as that can get you into trouble).

    One card that I just played against that is hilariously good against us, however, is extirpate. If that starts seeing more play then gravestone might be necessary.

  20. #280
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Jblinder View Post
    Iíve been playing this list on mtgo:
    3-2, 4-1, 1-0 so far.
    Good results! I might start playing Thought Scour over Preordain.


    Intuition has been medium,
    How has it been against mana denial decks? Did you face much Delver or D&T?

    Being able to play veil instead of something like silence is also huge.
    Where has Veil shined for you that Silence wouldn't? I would think that a random draw on the combo turn doesn't make a huge difference if you already committed to going off. Did you face much Counterbalance? I like Silence for beating Surgical and disenchants, but maybe your counters were sufficient to beat those.

    Flusterstorm has been amazing, and I think it belongs in probably any list not on a defense grid type plan.
    I was torn about Flusterstorm vs Spell Pierce earlier. In your games how often did it win situations that Spell Pierce wouldn't (i.e. storm >=3 and opponent has 2 open)? I like that Pierce can counter permanent hate like Chalice, Counterbalance, Cage, Crypt....

    I agree with lemon that silent gravestone isnít necessary. Most games you should be able to set up a situation where you can play around it (and Iím shaving thought scour vs surgical decks as that can get you into trouble).
    You can play around Surgical Extraction until you can counter it or stop them from playing spells. What about Faerie Macabre, Scavenging Ooze and Extirpate though? That's why I started with the 3 Gravestones originally. If it was just for Surgical, even Silence stops that. Although note that Silent Gravestone also stops their Snapcaster Mage and Dreadhorde Arcanist in those Surgical decks.

    It also has a 2nd mode of slowing down Reanimator, which is faster than us. Do we have any other plan against them? We can't race. I figured having a protection piece that doubled as hate was efficient use of SB.

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