I've been testing this variation with Echo but without Gamble, kind of a hybrid version
//Lands: 14
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island
//Artifacts: 15
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
3 Defense Grid
//Enchantments: 4
4 Underworld Breach
//Spells: 27
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Entomb
3 Silence
3 Burning Wish
3 Brain Freeze
3 Echo of Eons
//Wishboard: 5
1 Grapeshot
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Echo of Eons
1 Tome Scour
//Other sideboard: 10
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Silent Gravestone
2 Hope of Ghirapur
1 Serenity
1 Pithing Needle
//Maybeboard:
1 Pulverize
1 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Defense Grid
1 Wishclaw Talisman
Entomb into Echo is a good enough line that I wanted to abuse it more, so the protection suite shifted to cards that work with Echo (TS + Pact get worse).
I have Brainstorm, Ponder and tutors instead of Gamble and fast mana.
Mox Opal is sometimes awful and sometimes great, undecided.
The sideboard is still a work in progress but it should have flexible answers to most board states. Most importantly, the maindeck has a lot of power to dig into cards.
First 20 goldfishes:
- T3 unprotected (Breach, LED, Brain Freeze off cantrip + double Entomb)
- T2 behind Silence (Brainstorm into gas. Petal -> Silence -> LEDx2 -> Echo -> LEDx2, Mox -> mini Brain Freeze opponent -> Wish -> Echo -> 2nd Freeze)
- T3 with Silence & Defense Grid backup (T1-T2 cantrips & fetches, EOT Entomb for LED. T3 Ponder, Silence. If Silence countered, can play Grid and pass to T4. Otherwise Petal -> Breach -> escape LED -> escape Entomb for Echo -> escape LED -> Echo floating mana -> Ponder -> Brainstorm -> LED pitching Brain Freeze & 6 cards into deterministic win)
- Mull to 6: T4 win with Grid, after needing 2x Ponder + Brainstorm to find a 2nd land (Breach + LED + Brain Freeze)
- T4 with Grid + Silence (could have gambled T3 with Entomb-> Echo, but ETutor for Breach was more consistent)
- T1 unprotected (fast mana, Breach, LED, Entomb for Brain Freeze)
- Mull to 6: T3 with Grid. (T1 cantrip, T2 Grid, T3 upkeep ETutor-> Breach, LED, Freeze)
- T3 unprotected (T1 cantrip, T2 Entomb + ETutor for LED+Breach. Could have also tutored Defense Grid to try to grind)
- T3 with Silence & backup Silence (T1 cantrip, T2 cantrip, EOT Entomb -> LED. T3 Silence, Breach, escape LED, escape Freeze)
- Mull to 5: T5 win behind Silence & Grid after fizzling T3 behind Silence & Grid (T2 Grid. T3 LED, Opal, Silence, Opal, Freeze self for 15 hitting 0 Echos! T4 topdeck Burning Wish -> Echo -> hand that wins next turn behind another Silence).
- T2 unprotected (T1 ETutor. T2 Breach + LED + Freeze with Echo backup if Breach countered)
- T2 unprotected (T1 Entomb -> LED. T2 cantrip, petal, Breach -> escape LED -> escape Freeze)
- T2 unprotected (T1 Entomb -> Freeze. T2 Breach + LED. Also had a T1 Echo line, but that's probably worse without Silence/Grid protection)
- T3 win behind Grid & Silence after fizzling T2 behind Silence (T1 Brainstorm into 2x Silence but no 2nd mana. T2 Silence, 2x LED -> Echo -> LED, Mox, Petal -> Brainstorm -> fetch -> Ponder (whiff) -> Entomb -> Echo -> whiff and just play Defense Grid.
T3 Brainstorm into gas -> fetch -> Silence -> Petal -> Breach -> ETutor for LED -> Ponder to draw LED -> LED -> Entomb for Brain Freeze -> escape Brain Freeze)- T3 win behind Grid (T1 ETutor, T2 Grid, T3 Breach, LED, Freeze. Also had Burning Wish options)
- T3 unprotected (T1 cantrip whiff. T2 Wish -> Tome Scour. T3 Tome Scour self -> Breach -> escape LED -> escape Tome Scour x3 -> escape LED -> escape Freeze. Also had Brainstorm & Entomb if 1st Tome Scour whiffed)
- T2 unprotected (T1 cantrip, T2 Breach -> LED, Opal -> escape LED -> Echo -> Petal, Opal -> Entomb LED -> escape LED -> Brain Freeze from hand)
- T4 with Silence (could have gone T2 LED+Echo or T3 Breach without protection)
- T2 with Silence (T1 OTP land, petal, LED -> Entomb for Echo -> Echo -> Pass with new hand & randomizing opponent's hand. EOT ETutor for Breach. T2 Petal -> Silence -> Breach -> LED -> escape Ponder -> LED -> escape Ponder -> Ponder into junk -> escape Brainstorm -> Petal + Entomb for Freeze -> escape Brain Freeze storm 12 @ self -> win)
- T1 unprotected (Land, Petal, Opal, LED, Breach, Brain Freeze)
Aside from the obvious deterministic kills with Breach + LED + Brain Freeze, there were lines where cantripping, milling or Echoing dug me into a win.
It's possible cantripping is even higher variance than Gamble for a known card (random odds to see something good vs random odds to discard something good). Needs more testing.
Wishclaw Talisman is slow but opens up easier deterministic wins.
The protection suite is in flux. Needs testing against real opponents to see where the weaknesses are in interactions.
Isn't gamble better than entomb once breach is down?Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu
It is. Even with an empty hand (post LED), it does an Entomb impression for red mana instead of black.
Gamble's just bad at finding Breach. So is Entomb.
Gamble's also risky in general before Breach is down, while Entomb can at least find Echo or set up future turns without compromising your sculpted hand.
Pdingo's Gamble list leans towards looping Echo of Eons most of the time (which still wins games!) because it's inconsistent at setting up Breach directly. Maybe my above list could have Gamble over Entomb and cut black mana.
I think this is a plan B and not the main combo, for example (assuming entomb/gamble starts in your hand): 1R for Breach, B/R for 1st entomb/gamble getting LED, LED in grave Escape with 3 cards in exile. 3 mana open now to recast entomb/gamble for BF - that's 6 cards total to exile. - To escape BF you need to exile 3 more cards . . . that's 9 cards. You just don't have that many cards to use to Escape. The above sequence only works if you already have BF or LED also in hand or grave OR you get lucky with Gamble. Assuming no luck the above only works if you still consider it a 3 card combo like: Breach + Entomb/Gamble/LED + Entomb/Gamble/BF/Tome Scour.
This is the best way to enter the loop that I've found from just Breach + Entomb. But I haven't spent too much time looking.
This requires RUB2 mana on combo turn, and 6 other cards, at least 3 of which in the yard already. Doesn't seem particularly good as a plan A. On the note of mana, it should be noted that R1 of it could theoretically be used the previous turn by not comboing the turn Breach comes down, but I feel that opens us up too much.HTML Code:yard: xx, xx, xx hand: breach, entomb, xx, xx, xx >EOT cast Entomb, targeting BF --- Start your turn --- >Tap lands\fast mana for UBR2 >cast Breach mana: UB1 yard: xx, xx, xx, BF, Entomb hand: xx, xx, xx >escape BF mana: B yard : entomb, xx, xx, xx, xx, xx, xx, BF hand: xx, xx, xx >escape entomb targeting LED mana: yard: xx, xx, xx, BF, LED hand: xx, xx, xx >escape LED & crack mana: UUU yard: BF, xx, xx, xx, LED hand: >escape BF to start loop
EDIT: Slight edit, if you cast Breach the previous turn, you need to cast Entomb on the combo turn to keep the storm count high enough to fuel your BF. So really you can combo for UBB1 or RUB2. This is going to be a fun deck to play, I can already feel it.
Yeah that's why Breach + Entomb/Gamble is not the plan A. The requirement for extra mana and cards in GY is tough. It's easier to just go for Breach + LED + dig (Brain Freeze, Tome Scour, Entomb, Burning Wish, Echo, even mana + cantrips).
Entomb + Breach is a good backup plan if you cracked some fetches and cantrips but couldn't find LED or Brain Freeze (e.g. EOT Entomb for LED. Untap, 1RB: Breach, escape LED, escape Entomb for Brain Freeze, escape Brain Freeze). That line only needs 3 mana on the combo turn but a full yard.
My combo turns require as little as 1R to go off, 1RW with Silence. The mana requirement is so low that you can sometimes win on turn 1 or fresh Echo hands, and you can even upkeep ETutor into the win that turn. Or cantrip, see the win, and go off.
You can also do the setup on previous turns. Because there's a deterministic storm line, you don't need to do it all at once. You just need to tutor and cantrip until you assemble Breach + LED + dig, and anything other than Breach can start out in the GY.
Breach self-sacs at the end step.
The deck could play 1-of Memory Sluice, then you can go off with BR1, and 9 extra cards
Breach, Entomb (fetch LED)
cast LED (6 extra+Entomb), crack for BBB
Entomb (BB, 3 extra+Entomb), Fetch Sluice
cast sluice (B, 4 extra+Entomb),
cast sluice (5 extra+Entomb)
cast LED (2 extra + Entomb) crack for UUU
Sluice x3 -> LED is now breakeven, builds storm and loots the deck.
Though that's pretty card intensive.
Hmm... does Infernal Tutor make anything possible?
Is the above list (#101) up to date? I'd like to give it a whir tonight. Maybe I can even rope some people on discord into doing some practice matches.
I've been tweaking these lists. Both are goldfishing well, just with different types of protection.
Deterministic Combo Only:
//Lands: 16
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
//Artifacts: 8
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
//Enchantments: 4
4 Underworld Breach
//Protection: 10
3 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
//Other Spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Tome Scour
2 Entomb
2 Burning Wish
4 Brain Freeze
//Sideboard: 15
3 Silent Gravestone
2 Serenity
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fragmentize
1 Grapeshot
1 Tome Scour
1 Echo of Eons
1 Massacre
1 Pulverize
With Echo options:
//Lands: 14
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
//Artifacts: 11
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
//Enchantments: 4
4 Underworld Breach
//Protection: 7
4 Silence
3 Defense Grid
//Other Spells: 24
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Entomb
3 Burning Wish
3 Brain Freeze
3 Echo of Eons
//Sideboard: 15
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Silent Gravestone
2 Hope of Ghirapur
1 Veil of Summer
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grapeshot
1 Reverent Silence
1 Massacre
1 Echo of Eons
1 Tome Scour
Both are goldfishing consistently with protection turns 2-4, with odd turn 1 unprotected win, but they have very different ways of interacting with the opponent both pre-board and post-board. I can't tell which is better without testing a lot of real matches.
Some small tweaks to numbers may be needed.
Last edited by FTW; 01-03-2020 at 10:33 PM.
We tested with Breakthrough which digs as much as Sluice and the breakeven worked however FTW pointed out that it was good to have extra cards in graveyard just in case so we've been using Tome Scour which is 1 deeper.
I just posted my lists above. Would love to see what you can get testing it! Have fun.
The main things to assemble are Underworld Breach+Lion's Eye Diamond + some way to find Brain Freeze or Tome Scour or draw cards.
Once you have that, the main combo loop is LED for UUU -> Brain Freeze yourself -> LED -> Brain Freeze yourself -> etc. until you have enough storm and cards to win. Then you can Brain Freeze the opponent or Burning Wish for Grapeshot and cast Grapeshot 2-3 times.
Once you try it a few times, the win becomes pretty automatic once you resolve Breach with LED and Brain Freeze in hand/play/GY. It's a very linear kill. So most of the challenge is just assembling those cards and protecting yourself. It's kind of like High Tide in that you're a Storm deck but you're trying to assemble a few cards to make an engine.
Some tricks piloting the deck...
Exiling cards to Escape:
- While comboing off, be careful with the graveyard count and make sure you're not in a position where you need to exile your last LED or Brain Freeze to escape something. Graveyard size is a resource that needs to be managed carefully.
- If possible, avoid exiling Burning Wish and Entomb (in case you need to search for an answer to the board state). I usually exile lands first, then Lotus Petals and ETutors and redundant cantrips. I keep at least 1-ofs of LED, Brain Freeze, Entomb, Burning Wish, maybe a Ponder. If you can keep more cards: Pact + 3 spare cards, more LEDs, Brainstorm and Echo are good.
- Fetches and cantrips do a lot to fill the yard with Escape fuel. You can also do things like Entomb into anything for +1 card, or suicide Mox Opals and Lotus Petals.
- Game 1 you can probably mill yourself early without worrying about walking into hate. A couple mana rocks + Brain Freeze gives your GY a head start. Tome Scouring yourself works too, and is a great way to clear unwanted top cards from Ponder/Brainstorm.
Alternate Lines:
- Lion's Eye Diamond+Echo of Eons is a thing that draws you 7 cards out of nowhere. You can Entomb/Burning Wish into Echo or tutor into the LED. It's easy to set up, but it's random and also gives the opponent a fresh grip. My build is not optimized for Echo of Eons, so if you have a choice between a Breach line or getting a new hand with Echo, the linear Breach line is probably better. Echo is a backup plan in my deck (but the main plan in Pascal's deck).
- Echo of Eons is 1-sided when you have up Defense Grid or Silence/Veil of Summer. Opponent draws cards but can't cast anything on your turn. Without protection it's risky.
- Tome Scour is an alternate win engine if you can't find Brain Freeze (can be Burning Wished). Crack LED for UUU. You can escape Tome Scour 3 times, milling 15 cards and exiling 9 cards. That leaves you ahead +6 cards in the GY. Ideally you find Brain Freeze. Otherwise you can escape LED for UUU and keep Tome Scouring. You can theoretically get lethal storm just from LED + Tome Scour, but it's less efficient than Brain Freeze so it's a backup plan.
-You don't need to mill your whole deck. To save time, Grapeshot can win as early as Storm 7. You can just cast Grapeshot multiple times once you have LED mana + many cards in yard.
Tutoring:
-Enlightened Tutor seems slow but you can cast it on Upkeep or follow up with Brainstorm/Ponder to get the card immediately. Some people don't like it, but it's the most consistent way to get to Underworld Breach. It can also find LED, Defense Grid, Silent Gravestone, Pithing Needle, Serenity...
-Burning Wish finds Tome Scour to fill your yard (and do a Brain Freeze impersonation in a pinch), Echo of Eons to reset your hand, Grapeshot to win or kill hatebears, or a few free answers like Massacre, Reverent Silence and Pulverize.
- End step Entomb is a thing. With spare mana but fewer cards, you can get Brain Freeze/Tome Scour, then untap and go off with 1RUB: Breach -> escape Tome Scour -> escape Entomb for LED -> escape LED for UUU -> more Tome Scouring... With more cards but less mana, you can go EOT Entomb for LED, then untap and 1RB: Breach -> escape LED for UUU/BBB -> escape Entomb for Brain Freeze -> escape Brain Freeze.
- End step Entomb is NOT a thing when you have Defense Grid up. If you have Grid, remember to Entomb and ETutor on your own turn to avoid facepalms.
Protection:
- Pact of Negation can be cast from the GY for 0 mana, as long as you fill up the graveyard enough first. That means you're fully protected on the combo turn. If they try to counter Breach or LED, you can cast Pact from hand to counter. Once Breach is online and you crack LED, you can cast Pact from the yard at any time. If they try to Surgical anything, you can exile 3 cards to cast Pact! If the counter Pact, it goes to GY and you can cast it again! From there, as long as you keep Pact + 3 spare cards in the yard as you go off, you're protected, so just be careful about what cards you choose to exile if you want to leave up protection.
- Pact of Negation commits you to winning THIS TURN, which is why it's only in the deterministic build and why we don't make 1/1 Goblin tokens
- You want Defense Grid or Silence up before casting Echo of Eons, otherwise you're just walking into a counter. Discard and counters are worse in a build that gives the opponent 7 new cards.
- Postboard Silent Gravestone protects you from Surgical and Faerie Macabre. It's tutorable.
- Leylines can be killed be Wish into Reverent Silence/Fragmentize, Echoing Truth, or Tutor into Serenity. Most of these cards answer multiple Leylines too.
- Pithing Needle can answer Tormod's Crypt and friends, or you can try to Abrupt Decay them before filling your yard. It also adds to Metalcraft!
Playing around the opponent:
- Leading with blue fetch into cantrips and Thoughtseize can confuse the opponent about what you're playing. Take advantage of this. They won't expect Storm after seeing Thoughtseize. Who plays Thoughtseize in storm??
-Same thing with T1 fetch into Plateau. That does not look like Storm!! It also sets you up for End Step ETutor into Breach, with the right colors of mana for both cards. You might be able to turn that into a quick win if they misplay around your Plateau instead of holding up disruption.
- Because the win engine deterministically generates enough storm on its own, you don't need to play everything on the combo turn. Underworld Breach could be your first spell that turn. The storm count is a non-issue. So if you need to, play cantrips and disruption and artifact mana earlier to play around the opponent's gameplan. It's far more important to have stable mana and resolve your pieces.
- It's a flimsy multicolor manabase. Wasteland will hurt. Be careful about what colors you fetch and when. Sequencing fetches makes a big difference.
I haven't tested the sideboards against real decks yet, so tweak away as needed.
Last edited by FTW; 01-04-2020 at 11:08 AM.
Tome Scour is much better. Mills 5 cards instead of 4, so you net +2 cards and actually get ahead in the game as you dig for tools. Can be Wished for or Entombed.
Edit: Ninja'd be Cire!
Fantastic write up!
I think the current record for a deck to go from N&D to DTB is Dark Depth-Hogaak, but let's see if we can beat that record from the time Underworld Break actually becomes legal
Tome Scour is obviously better if you have a free choice of mana. Memory Sluice has the advantage that it can be cast for B, which means that it and Entomb can be cast off the same LED activation.
True. I'm sure there are scenarios where you're more constrained on mana or can only use LED once. My list with 2 Tome Scour could be replaced with 1 Tome Scour + 1 Memory Sluice to open up your line of play. It won't lose too much consistency when Sluice is drawn naturally.
I had 2 copies because it helped the odds of seeing some mill effect naturally without a tutor. Cire had reached a similar conclusion that 4 Brain Freeze + 2 mill was a good balance.
I don't have them in the Echo build because you can undo your own self-mill too easily, so blind Tome Scouring/Brain Freezing yourself is not good. But Echo helps in other ways to refuel your hand when you messed up. If you draw a Brain Freeze in the new hand then you can immediately Brain Freeze yourself with decent Storm to set up for a Breach next turn. It's really hard to evaluate whether the Echo refresh is worth it without facing real opponents getting fresh 7s, so that's why I posted both variants.
Just finished some goldfishing 15 games with the Echo list. Results:
- Turn 1
- Turn 4 with Grid and Silence
- Turn 5 with Grid and Silence
- Turn 4 with Silence
- Turn 2
- Turn 6 with Grid on Mull to 5
- Turn 2 on Mull to 6
- Turn 4 with Grid on Mull to 6
- Turn 2 with Silence
- Turn 2
- Turn 1
- Turn 3
- Turn 4 (Bricked Turn 3)
- Turn 2
- Turn 3
Some thoughts on the games.
- After the second BF on yourself it's VERY hard to mess up. I found myself almost always casting BF to 6 storm, then 2 LEDs for red into Wish, Grapeshot, Grapeshot for 21.
- I was not a fan of Entomb. It felt very awkward to play with, and more often than not I wanted it to fetch Breach.
- Fetching up Tome Scour felt bad, but once I had it it worked very well.
- The protection felt lackluster. I was rarely in a place where I could afford to both cast silence\grid and go off. If I chose to cast Grid, I always ended up having to wait until the next turn to try and win. This meant that the opponent would have 3 mana they could hold up for FoW.
- I only cast Eons twice in my 15 games, and neither time did it feel like it helped me.
Going forward, I think I'll try cutting the 3 Entombs for 3 Gamble. It's probably worse, but at least it has a chance of getting Breach too. I also think that That will free up the manabase to be 3c instead of 5c which might make room for Hall of Heliod's Generosity, which could mitigate Gamble in longer games. I might also try cutting the Eons for Lightning Bolt\Swords to provide some kind of creature interaction. I think I'd rather the silences be Veil of Summers, but that would ruin the streamlined manabase that cutting black made. I'll give the other list FTV posted a whir before I start messing around, but I think it'll play a lot better if we can get down to 3c.
Thanks for posting your results and thoughts!
I recommend you try the other list without Echo of Eons then and make tweaks from that shell, because that build addresses most of the problems you saw. The main advantages of it are:
- there's more protection and it's much easier to cast early (often win with 2x discard or discard + Pact)
- discard gives perfect information to help you plan when/how to go off
- more lines to mill yourself in advance to set up
- fizzles less often
- never giving opponent 7 cards
- fewer Entombs (Entomb was compensating for a reduction in MD self-mill or for the line Entomb -> Echo flashback)
If you want maindeck creature removal, Lightning Bolt is much better than StP because it doubles as a backup win condition (although you may run out cards to exile before getting lethal damage, important to do the math before starting).
Yeah, that's why no Empty the Warrens. Once you start going off, hitting lethal storm is trivial. You don't have to worry about getting stuck halfway like most storm decks do. Our challenge is just setting up the pieces and protecting them. Once you get the ball rolling, it's a done deal.After the second BF on yourself it's VERY hard to mess up.
Underworld Breach is bananas with a large GY. It's playing Dredge and Storm at the same time.
Yeah I was torn there. Veil of Summer is a better card overall, but Silence is easier on the manabase. Also Veil doesn't prevent Surgical Extraction or nonblack Disenchant effects on Breach, but Silence does!I think I'd rather the silences be Veil of Summers, but that would ruin the streamlined manabase that cutting black made. I'll give the other list FTV posted a whir before I start messing around, but I think it'll play a lot better if we can get down to 3c.
Playtested some friendly games with the non-Echo version against UR Delver, preboard
Won 7-3!
Game 1: Win for A Cold Day in Hell
He had no early pressure, I had Duress + Thoughtseize and cantripped until I could go off
Game 2: Win for Delver
Grindy game with many trades. With us both in topdeck mode, I Burning Wished for Grapeshot to kill his board. Should have taken Echo to draw7 (had LED), was afraid of giving him cards. But topdeck mode is bad, Delver topdecks better than combo. He recovered faster with a flipped Delver
Game 3: Win for Delver
I mulled to 5 and still cobbled together the combo but ate disruption
Game 4: Win for A Cold Day in Hell
He played 3 spells to make YP tokens, I EOT Brain Freeze myself for 12 into LED and gas, untap and win
Game 5: Win for A Cold Day in Hell
Delver mulled to 5 into my T1 Thoughtseize
Game 6: Win for A Cold Day in Hell
Delver got stuck on one Island after Wasting me and some unlucky cantrips, so he couldn't use his double Daze after Thoughtseize cleared Force
Game 7: Win for Delver
Turn 1 Delver OTP with multiple counters
Game 8: Win for A Cold Day in Hell
At 3 life facing Delver + YP, double Wasted down to a measly Scrubland with Breach + Pact in hand, I topdecked Lotus Petal! Had Pact for his FoW on Breach and went off from there.
Game 9: Win for A Cold Day in Hell
I had a turn 1 win OTP, but he had FoW for Breach. From there I grinded a few turns until I found another Breach with Pact to protect it (he dug into a 2nd FoW and Daze, but I played around Daze).
Game 10: Win for A Cold Day in Hell
He had turn 1 Delver. I had Thoughtseize taking FoW into Duress taking a cantrip (leaving him Daze) before Brain Freezing myself for 12. Flipped Delver + Dreadhorde Arcanist got some damage in while I dug a few turns. Found Breach, resolved it (he just had Daze), escaped Duress to confirm the coast was clear, and went off.
Small sample of games. Also it was pre-board, so Delver had some suboptimal cards main and didn't board in gravehate or more counters yet. Maindeck just had 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 1 FoN.
Still, looks like the deck does alright even against disruption.
Playing 4 Thoughtseize + 3 Duress + 3 Pact and so far I like that split.
Edit: added 2 more games.
Also, I don't think I ever cast Entomb (maybe once for a redundant LED or BF). The limiting factor was always finding and resolving Breach. Everything else can be countered or killed or milled to the yard, doesn't matter. The longer the game goes, the more the win condition becomes "1R: Breach" even as a topdeck. Maybe -2 Entomb + 2 Gamble.
Last edited by FTW; 01-04-2020 at 06:37 AM.
Here is what I am currently goldfishing:
https://deckbox.org/sets/25510399
Haven't read all 6 pages yet so I might be repeating what has been said here already :-)
A couple unordered notes:
- Entomb is always card disadvantage
- Entomb doesn't work well with most sideboard card we want to tutor for post-sideboard
- Entomb does nothing but thinning against permanent graveyard hate
- Entomb forces the black splashes since it can't be just cast off rocks reliably
- Gamble is better than Entomb regarding these 4 points, but is sorcery
- Stifle can counter the Eldrazi shuffle trigger
- Stifle can counter the sacrifice trigger from Underworld Breach
- Burning Wish functions as both an alternative kill condition as well as a hate-permission, hence the 2 copies
- Breakthrough theoretically functions as additional copies of Brain Freeze but leaves you Hellbent which I don't like when playing with reactive permission as opposed to proactive permission like discard spells
- Veil of Summer can function as a Silence
- Veil of Summer protects from Abrupt Decay
- Veil of Summer forces through a Chalice of the Void on 0 or 2
Considering Surgical Extraction instead of the Echoing Truth: it lets you see their hand before going off, handles Eldrazi shuffles, exiles eventual Force of Will before resolving Echo of Eons, ... That's besides its typical set of interactions with the field in Legacy. On the other hand, it would be much better in a list with discard spells.
The manabase I haven't worked on yet but I like 8 fetchlands 6 fetchables for now.
The sideboard is untested but is built around the natural hate I could think of:
- Surgical Extraction
- Leyline of the Void; Rest in Piece
- Trinisphere; Chalice of the Void; sphere effects
- Leyline of Sanctity
- Thalia, Guardian of Thraben; Phyrexian
The other pieces of hate should all fall in either of these 5 categories I think.
Reading the previous pages, and I must say I like Pact of Negation a lot, at least on paper :-) The other cards mentioned however (Memory Sluice, Breakthrough) feel a little too cute and do next to nothing outside of the combo turn.
Another route could be to go Veteran Explorer and Stitcher's Supplier with Cabal Therapy and Culling the Weak. The extra mana doesn't seem very much needed but could let the pilot save 3 extra cards in the graveyard not having to play the initial LED. Stitcher's Supplier on the other hand is 7 cards in the graveyard with a Cabal Therapy or by blocking a threat.
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