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Thread: Escape Brain Freeze

  1. #361
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    Do you think we have a static enough list for a primer? This is just off memory , but it seems like there are a lot of slots in flux still.
    Looks like a good list for a primer for the UWR version. It has the core and covers the main support slots players have had the most success with.

    Aside from a deck list, our primer should have sections on playing around hate (there is a LOT of hate that hits us, but we also have a lot of ways to beat it), alternate win lines, sequencing and strategy. Edit: I can help with some of this.

  2. #362
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Looks like a good list for a primer for the UWR version. It has the core and covers the main support slots players have had the most success with.

    Aside from a deck list, our primer should have sections on playing around hate (there is a LOT of hate that hits us, but we also have a lot of ways to beat it), alternate win lines, sequencing and strategy.
    Thanks for volunteering

    In all seriousness though, this is a good idea. There are a lot of ways to play sloppy with this deck, and as I learned last FNM, it's not particularly easy to see them until it's too late.

    These are the tips I've figured out so far.

    - Crack LED in response to cantriping when searching for BF in a "go off now or lose" state.
    - Escape LED before casting BF to protect from surgical extraction
    - Cast Silence before casting UB. Even if they don't have countermagic it could protect you from permanent hate.
    - When fighting with a UB on the field remember that you can escape counterspells, but not for alternative costs.
    - Always exile lands to escape first, you may need those spells later.
    - Reusing tutors is powerful, but remember that it goes to top of library. You need a way to draw if you're looking to escape Etutor.
    - Grinding station triggers to untap on it's own entry. Responding to this can be the difference between having enough cards in the yard to escape and losing.

  3. #363
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    A possible outline?

    [Intro]

    [Discussion of Main Combo]

    [Why play Escape Brain Freeze]

    [Versions of Combo]

    [URW]

    [URW List]

    [Discussion of Card Choices/Options]

    [Sideboarding]

    [UBRg]

    [UBRg List]

    [Echo]

    [Echo List]

    [Lines of Combo] see my post from beginning on page 14.

    [Tips]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  4. #364

    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    A possible outline?

    [Intro]

    [Discussion of Main Combo]

    [Why play Escape Brain Freeze]

    [Versions of Combo]

    [URW]

    [URW List]

    [Discussion of Card Choices/Options]

    [Sideboarding]

    [UBRg]

    [UBRg List]

    [Echo]

    [Echo List]

    [Lines of Combo] see my post from beginning on page 14.

    [Tips]

    Strongly feel something close to my RUG list should be included. Just got another trophy with it. 34-11 overall.

    I switched to UWr for a bit and just still find it clunkier (went 3-2 both times).

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2705596#paper

  5. #365

    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Jblinder View Post
    Strongly feel something close to my RUG list should be included. Just got another trophy with it. 34-11 overall.

    I switched to UWr for a bit and just still find it clunkier (went 3-2 both times).

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2705596#paper
    If a primer is started then all 3 versions of the deck should be included; URw, URg, URB.

  6. #366
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvio83 View Post
    sorry but this is unwatchable
    too many misplays
    OK, well, keep in mind that this is Week 1. Misplays and mistakes are part of the game, and I don't know how you're able to watch Magic at all if this is your reaction to them. This is a local weekly and not a Pro Tour, so you're going to see a lot more mistakes at this level. Calling it "unwatchable" is just being abrasive. People don't owe you free Legacy streaming, so try to at least be polite and constructive.

  7. #367

    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    Thanks for volunteering

    In all seriousness though, this is a good idea. There are a lot of ways to play sloppy with this deck, and as I learned last FNM, it's not particularly easy to see them until it's too late.

    These are the tips I've figured out so far.

    - Crack LED in response to cantriping when searching for BF in a "go off now or lose" state.
    - Escape LED before casting BF to protect from surgical extraction
    - Cast Silence before casting UB. Even if they don't have countermagic it could protect you from permanent hate.
    - When fighting with a UB on the field remember that you can escape counterspells, but not for alternative costs.
    - Always exile lands to escape first, you may need those spells later.
    - Reusing tutors is powerful, but remember that it goes to top of library. You need a way to draw if you're looking to escape Etutor.
    - Grinding station triggers to untap on it's own entry. Responding to this can be the difference between having enough cards in the yard to escape and losing.
    A couple more:

    Vs potential abrupt decay (suppose you’re too tight on mana to cast double breach or otherwise have a breach in graveyard). Cast underworld breach. Crack led, cast underworld breach from graveyard. You’re now insulated against removal. This one saved me two games in a row against TES post board.

    Chain of vapor trick: you go for combo early to try to go under a knight of the reliquary they just played (which represents bog once active). You end up fizzling. You can chain of vapor your own underworld breach, sacrifice a land and also hit their knight to go off again next turn. This came up on stream just tonight.

  8. #368
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    Escape LED before casting BF to protect from surgical extraction
    It depends, but I'm mostly nitpicking: in my Echo list, I would often not crack LED as I dig with Brainstorm. Generally speaking, or specifically in a 10+ cantrips list cracking LEDs before resolving said cantrips is good advice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    Always exile lands to escape first, you may need those spells later.
    Nitpicking again, but with Sevinne's Reclamation LED + fetchland is +1 Storm +1 mana for 3 cards exiled. I tend to leave a land in the graveyard for that reason.
    Reminds me of the cute interaction between Grinding Station + Mox Opal for the Mox lists.

  9. #369

    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    OK, well, keep in mind that this is Week 1. Misplays and mistakes are part of the game, and I don't know how you're able to watch Magic at all if this is your reaction to them. This is a local weekly and not a Pro Tour, so you're going to see a lot more mistakes at this level. Calling it "unwatchable" is just being abrasive. People don't owe you free Legacy streaming, so try to at least be polite and constructive.
    Yeah sorry mate, maybe I expressed myself wrong or have been too impulsive. My bad. I try to be costructive withmy bad english.
    But, usually, when i go to a tournament, I test the deck before to know at least the minimal interaction of my deck and how to deal with the possible match ups.
    for example the first stream against depths, what's the point of orim in opponent turn? this way you go under crop+bog (like he did), plus he tried a non-determistic combo (fail to find freeze at that point=loose), plus he should have kept preordain with that ponder to see one more card. Is correct to board in mentor against a deck that close in 1 turn? is correct to take out orim/silence against a deck that has decay/veil/crop as the only interaction?

  10. #370
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvio83 View Post
    Yeah sorry mate, maybe I expressed myself wrong or have been too impulsive. My bad. I try to be costructive withmy bad english.
    But, usually, when i go to a tournament, I test the deck before to know at least the minimal interaction of my deck and how to deal with the possible match ups.
    for example the first stream against depths, what's the point of orim in opponent turn? this way you go under crop+bog (like he did), plus he tried a non-determistic combo (fail to find freeze at that point=loose), plus he should have kept preordain with that ponder to see one more card. Is correct to board in mentor against a deck that close in 1 turn? is correct to take out orim/silence against a deck that has decay/veil/crop as the only interaction?
    I'm sure he would agree with most, or all, of your points, but he can't go back in time. Misplays are a good chance to learn. Everyone makes mistakes, and we simply can try to do better next time.

  11. #371
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvio83 View Post
    Yeah sorry mate, maybe I expressed myself wrong or have been too impulsive. My bad. I try to be costructive withmy bad english.
    But, usually, when i go to a tournament, I test the deck before to know at least the minimal interaction of my deck and how to deal with the possible match ups.
    for example the first stream against depths, what's the point of orim in opponent turn? this way you go under crop+bog (like he did), plus he tried a non-determistic combo (fail to find freeze at that point=loose), plus he should have kept preordain with that ponder to see one more card. Is correct to board in mentor against a deck that close in 1 turn? is correct to take out orim/silence against a deck that has decay/veil/crop as the only interaction?
    I should point out that this is a weekly.


    On another note, I took this list to Thursday night legacy going 1-2-1
    3 Scalding Tarn
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Plains
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    3 Chain of Vapor
    2 Flusterstorm
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Brain Freeze
    4 Underworld Breach
    2 Burning Wish
    2 Prismatic Vista
    3 Silence
    2 Preordain

    // sideboard
    3 Monastery Mentor
    2 Brazen Borrower
    2 Defense Grid
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 ???
    2 Serenity

    //wishboard
    1 Infernal Tutor
    1 Tome Scour
    1 Grapeshot


    Round 1: Eldrazi Stompy 1-2
    Game 1: I go to combo off but forget about this chalice on 1 and blow 3 cards trying to preordain. End up 3 cards short of the win.
    Game 2: I combo off through a Leyline of the Void and win on turn 4.
    Game 3: I mulligan to 4 and have to keep a 1 lander. I never find red mana.

    Round 2: RUG Delver 2-0
    This guy was brand new to legacy, and had only played kitchen table before. One of his friends dragged him along and lent him the deck.
    Game 1: He didn't read his cards and didn't realize he could cast Force of Will for free. Let me combo off on turn 3 with daze mana backup. I explain how Force of Will works after he shows me his hand.
    Game 2: He casts 4 cantrips but never sees a counterspell. I combo off on turn 3 again.

    Round 3: Izzet Breach 0-2
    Love this buys build. He cut the white cards for Intuition and Gamble because he felt that the manabase wasn't good enough to support 3 colors. Our games (although a very small sample size) proved him right.
    Game 1: I mull to 5 and keep a slow hand. He Gambles turn 1 into a turn 2 kill.
    Game 2: I mull to 4 and keep a 1 lander. He goes off turn 3.

    Round 4: Izzet Delver 0-0
    We are both out of the running for prizes, so we decide to draw and swap decks. I win on delver 3-0
    Null Rod and Rachet bomb get me there both times.


    I'm tempted to go onto the 2 color build to see how it works for Monday since we can use proxies at that store. I'll report back if I do and how it did.

  12. #372
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    Null Rod and Rachet bomb get me there both times.
    Sorry if I'm being stupid here, but I'm assuming you weren't activating Ratchet Bomb with Null Rod out. How does Ratchet Bomb interact? Did you set it to 2 counters in order to blow up Breach on the combo turn?
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
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  13. #373
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Sorry if I'm being stupid here, but I'm assuming you weren't activating Ratchet Bomb with Null Rod out. How does Ratchet Bomb interact? Did you set it to 2 counters in order to blow up Breach on the combo turn?
    Yes. I kept him off playing the combo until I got null rod to 2. Then the threat of cracking on his combo turn forced him to dig for removal and gave me time to get a second delver online and kill him. I can't say that it's actually good against us, but was one of the cards I sided in that helped me win.

  14. #374
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    To those playing with Hall of Heliod's Generosity, how good are you finding it? I tried it out and find it's way to mana intensive as a "saving mechanism". If my Breach gets put in a grave I would rather just have more tutors and cantrips to find another than spend three mana (2 for activation and 1 for the Hall itself) to get back my breach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  15. #375
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    To those playing with Hall of Heliod's Generosity, how good are you finding it? I tried it out and find it's way to mana intensive as a "saving mechanism". If my Breach gets put in a grave I would rather just have more tutors and cantrips to find another than spend three mana (2 for activation and 1 for the Hall itself) to get back my breach.
    In theory it allows you to grind out your opponent, but mainly I've found it kind of lackluster.

  16. #376
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    I agree the RUG list should be in the primer. JBinder, you've had great results and that looks like a strong list! AngryBacon was on RUG too.

    Over the last week I'm at 16-3 with UWR.

    I've swapped around a few SB and protection slots in between, but have kept roughly the same manabase and core. I haven't had color problems with this.

    //Lands: 16
    3 Scalding Tarn
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Tundra


    I went up to 17 lands for some of those games (with a 2nd Volcanic Island) then cut it for Preordain #3.

    I've never had much problem with color access, though sequencing cantrips and fetches in the first few turns is really important. I noticed in testing and goldfishing that fetching the wrong land at the wrong time or using the wrong fetch first can screw you out of a color. I cantrip and fetch more carefully than I would playing something like Delver. Lotus Petal is also a great way to get the red for Breach when you just have Islands and Plains out.

    Lemon, you have 2 colorless lands in a 3 color deck. I wonder if they make a difference. How often do you activate Hall of Heliod's Generosity?

    Another option is to forget the basics and go heavier on duals like a 3-color Delver manabase:
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tundra
    1 Island
    It's tried tested and true, you just have to accept you'll get Wasted sometimes. I had very consistent colored mana with that in the early test shells (50+ goldfishes, 20ish test matches vs Delver). Unless Delver double Wasted me early with a clock, being vulnerable to Wasteland wasn't that big a deal. You have cantrips and backup copies of duals. Delver decks have been pulling it off for a while. Most storm decks are dual-centric. 3 color manabases do work, with the right support. It's a calculated decision whether you think you'll have to face multiple Wastelands more often than you'll gain wins from easier access to colors.

    I'm surprised URW lost to the UR mirror 0-2. Silence wrecks the mirror. Why do you mulligan so much? Was it just bad luck with really awful hands, or are you trying to mull into the combo? We don't need to. Fetches, cantrips and some interaction (FoW, Silence) could be enough to keep 7. Check out AnziD's stream. In some matches we can play the control role. It's not always a race.

    Good luck with the 2 color build!

  17. #377
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    Yes. I kept him off playing the combo until I got null rod to 2. Then the threat of cracking on his combo turn forced him to dig for removal and gave me time to get a second delver online and kill him. I can't say that it's actually good against us, but was one of the cards I sided in that helped me win.
    I'm surprised. Your deck has 3 Chain of Vapors main + 2 Borrowers SB, so even if he can't find ETutor into Serenity it should be easy to EOT bounce the Ratchet / Null Rod and go off (unless bad luck). Of course if he's playing the deck for the first time then he may not see the lines or know what to cantrip into while you would have a better idea of how to hate it out.

  18. #378
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I agree the RUG list should be in the primer. JBinder, you've had great results and that looks like a strong list! AngryBacon was on RUG too.

    Over the last week I'm at 16-3 with UWR.

    I've swapped around a few SB and protection slots in between, but have kept roughly the same manabase and core. I haven't had color problems with this.

    I went up to 17 lands for some of those games (with a 2nd Volcanic Island) then cut it for Preordain #3.

    I've never had much problem with color access, though sequencing cantrips and fetches in the first few turns is really important. I noticed in testing and goldfishing that fetching the wrong land at the wrong time or using the wrong fetch first can screw you out of a color. I cantrip and fetch more carefully than I would playing something like Delver. Lotus Petal is also a great way to get the red for Breach when you just have Islands and Plains out.

    Lemon, you have 2 colorless lands in a 3 color deck. I wonder if they make a difference. How often do you activate Hall of Heliod's Generosity?

    Another option is to forget the basics and go heavier on duals like a 3-color Delver manabase:
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tundra
    1 Island
    It's tried tested and true, you just have to accept you'll get Wasted sometimes. I had very consistent colored mana with that in the early test shells (50+ goldfishes, 20ish test matches vs Delver). Unless Delver double Wasted me early with a clock, being vulnerable to Wasteland wasn't that big a deal. You have cantrips and backup copies of duals. Delver decks have been pulling it off for a while. Most storm decks are dual-centric. 3 color manabases do work, with the right support. It's a calculated decision whether you think you'll have to face multiple Wastelands more often than you'll gain wins from easier access to colors.

    I'm surprised URW lost to the UR mirror 0-2. Silence wrecks the mirror. Why do you mulligan so much? Was it just bad luck with really awful hands, or are you trying to mull into the combo? We don't need to. Fetches, cantrips and some interaction (FoW, Silence) could be enough to keep 7. Check out AnziD's stream. In some matches we can play the control role. It's not always a race.

    Good luck with the 2 color build!
    I was trying to find a hand with enough land\the right land. I don't remember the exact hands, but the instances where I had 1 land I had no cantrips, and if I had more than 1 mana source I would have 4+ of them. Might just mean I need new sleeves, or maybe I just need to give up on Hall. There were definitely 1 Hall 1 Petal hands that would have been much better with a Fetchland instead.

  19. #379
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Lots of stuff in flux, but just wanted to get a master list of all possible choices that I've seen in one place. Still not even sure this is complete.

    • 40-60 UR Shell
      • 14-19 Mana Sources
        • 9-11 Fetch Lands
        • 0-4 Basics
        • 0-4 Dual lands
        • 0-4 Mox Opal
      • 26-30 Cards - CORE
        • 4 Lotus Petal
          4 Underworld Breach
          4 Brain Freeze
          4 LED
          4 Ponder
          4 Brainstorm
          0-4 Win Cons
          • 0-1 Thassa's Oracle
          • 0-4 Burning Wish
      • 6-10 Blue/Artifact Protection Pieces
        • 0-4 FOW
        • 0-4 Pact of Negation
        • 0-3 Chain of Vapor
        • 0-2 Spell Pierce
        • 0-2 Flusterstorm
        • 0-2 Defense Grid
      • 0-10 Other Card Selection/Draw
        • 0-4 Preordain
        • 0-4 Thought Scour
        • 0-4 Gamble
        • 0-4 Tome Scour
        • 0-1 Grinding Station
    • 3-10 Jeskai Inclusions
      • 0-2 Lands
        • 0-2 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

      • 3-4 Search
        • 3-4 Enlightened Tutor
      • 0-6 Protection
        • 0-3 Silence
        • 0-3 Orim's Chant
        • 0-3 Swords to Plowshares
    • 3-4 Temur Inclusions
      • 3-4 Protection
        • 3-4 Veil of Summer
    • 2-8 Grixis Inclusions
      • 0-4 Search
        • 0-4 Infernal Tutor
        • 0-4 Entomb
      • 0-6 Protection
        • 0-4 Thoughtseize
        • 0-4 Duress
        • 0-4 Cabal Therapy
    • 4 Echo of Eons
      • 4 Echo of Eons
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  20. #380
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    Re: Escape Brain Freeze

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Lots of stuff in flux, but just wanted to get a master list of all possible choices that I've seen in one place. Still not even sure this is complete.
    Looking at the latest lists, I think we can narrow down the core more, then cover more options for the splashes.


    CORE 40-45
    //Mana: 18-21
    9-10 fetchlands
    5-7 mix of basics & duals
    4 Lotus Petal

    //Combo: 12
    4 Underworld Breach
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Brain Freeze

    //Cantrips: 8
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    //Wincons: 1-4
    0-1 Thassa's Oracle
    0-3 Burning Wish
    0-1 Grapeshot
    0-2 Lightning Bolt


    FLEX SLOTS 15-20
    4-10 Card Selection
    7-13 Protection
    0-4 Fast Mana

    The core is pretty stable.
    MentalMisstep and AnziD are on 41 Core.
    Jblinder and shojeel have 43 Core I think.
    Other lists I've seen are close.

    The remaining slots divide up into card selection and protection, varying between versions. Color splashes open up different options.


    FLEX SLOTS in UR MAIN COLORS
    //Card selection:
    0-4 Preordain
    0-4 Thought Scour
    0-4 Gamble
    0-4 Intuition
    0-4 Faithless Looting
    0-2 Cunning Wish
    0-2 Tome Scour

    //Protection:
    0-4 Force of Will
    0-3 Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm
    0-2 Defense Grid
    0-2 Pact of Negation
    0-3 Chain of Vapor
    0-4 Daze
    0-1 Pyroblast

    //Fast Mana:
    0-4 Rite of Flame

    //Sideboard (not including Wishboard or splash colors):
    0-3 Chain of Vapor
    0-2 Spell Pierce
    0-1 Flusterstorm
    0-2 Pyroblast
    0-1 Surgical Extraction
    0-1 Burning Wish
    0-1 Force of Negation
    0-2 Brazen Borrower / Echoing Truth



    JESKAI VERSION
    //Maindeck:
    2-4 Enlightened Tutor
    2-4 Silence / Orim's Chant
    0-2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    0-1 Seal of Cleansing
    0-1 Seal of Removal
    0-1 Grinding Station
    0-1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    0-2 Sevinne's Reclamation

    //Sideboard:
    2-3 Serenity
    0-4 Monastery Mentor
    0-4 Swords to Plowshares
    0-2 Silence / Abeyance
    0-2 Wear // Tear
    0-1 Pithing Needle
    0-1 Silent Gravestone
    0-1 Ensnaring Bridge


    Main reasons to add white:
    -ETutor package including Serenity
    -Silence effects
    -Mentor plan B


    TEMUR SPLASH
    //Maindeck:
    3-4 Veil of Summer

    //Sideboard:
    1 Reverent Silence

    Reasons to play green:
    -More stable mana staying mainly in UR
    -Veil of Summer
    -Reverent Silence for Wishboard


    GRIXIS VERSION
    //Maindeck:
    3-4 Thoughtseize
    3-4 Infernal Tutor
    0-4 Duress / Inquisition of Kozilek
    0-4 Dark Ritual
    0-3 Entomb

    Reasons to play black:
    -discard
    -Infernal Tutor
    -bluff being ANT


    ECHO VERSION
    //Maindeck:
    3-4 Echo of Eons
    3-4 Mox Opal
    0-4 Gamble
    0-4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
    0-4 Narset, Parter of Veils
    0-3 Chrome Mox
    0-4 Mishra's Bauble / Urza's Bauble

    Reasons to play Echo:
    - more explosive but higher variance


    WISHBOARD OPTIONS
    //Burning Wish Wishboard:
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Tome Scour
    0-1 Void Snare
    0-1 Sevinne's Reclamation
    0-1 Infernal Tutor
    0-1 Shenanigans / By Force / Meltdown / Pulverize
    0-1 Reverent Silence
    0-1 Massacre
    0-1 Pyroclasm
    0-1 Empty the Warrens
    0-1 Echo of Eons
    0-1 Fragmentize

    //Cunning Wish Wishboard:
    1 Brain Freeze
    1 Chain of Vapor
    1 Wear // Tear




    Winning Decklists
    Last edited by FTW; 01-31-2020 at 03:22 PM.

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