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Thread: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

  1. #21

    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    So I've committed to splashing red for Faithless Looting, here is my tentative plan for Thursday night legacy...
    There are some interesting options like Ox of Agonas and Seasoned Pyromancer in red.

  2. #22
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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    There are some interesting options like Ox of Agonas and Seasoned Pyromancer in red.
    Ox is really cool, especially since it counts as a 'cast' trigger for Vengevines. Double red is a little rough, but maybe there is a RUG version that could really abuse it:

    4x Careful Study
    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Hollow One
    4x Vengevine
    4x Bazaar Trademage
    4x Ox of Agonas

    And go from there.
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  3. #23
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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    I'd highly consider running intuition for vengevine in these builds.
    -rob

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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    4x Careful Study
    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Hollow One
    4x Vengevine
    4x Bazaar Trademage
    4x Ox of Agonas
    I tested out that shell. There's some cool stuff going on there, depending on what other creatures you add, like some mix of
    Prized Amalgam
    Bloodghast
    Stitcher's Supplier
    Insolent Neonate
    Basking Rootwalla

    But that pile just feels smoother going -4 Trademage.

    What does Trademage add to the strategy that Dredge and Hogaak can't do better? 3 mana is hard without ramp.

    The other thing is that, now that Breach is banned, Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize just got worse. The meta will be dominated by Veil of Summer decks instead of Silence decks.

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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I tested out that shell. There's some cool stuff going on there, depending on what other creatures you add, like some mix of
    Prized Amalgam
    Bloodghast
    Stitcher's Supplier
    Insolent Neonate
    Basking Rootwalla

    But that pile just feels smoother going -4 Trademage.

    What does Trademage add to the strategy that Dredge and Hogaak can't do better? 3 mana is hard without ramp.

    The other thing is that, now that Breach is banned, Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize just got worse. The meta will be dominated by Veil of Summer decks instead of Silence decks.
    Sure, I can agree that Veil makes the disruption worse, but the aggressive plan still seems good.

    I think Trademage has to be part of the turn-dudes-sideways plan, it only works because it's still a 3/4 flyer that can win Delver battles, block Marit Lage, and attack for 3. The plan, at least for me, was always to have a graveyard strategy that can go wide but also doesn't auto-lose to hate.

    I'm rethinking Looting because I need more cheap dudes to trigger Vines. Putrid Imp seems just right, and allows for explosive early turns. It's also a free discard outlet for sideboard chancellor's and can discard Trademage to be reanimated, which can supercharge early turns.

    EDIT: The conundrum from the beginning is whether this is viable or whether it's just 'bad hogaak'. I guess it isn't susceptible to Karakas, so that's something right? Lol...
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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    EDIT: The conundrum from the beginning is whether this is viable or whether it's just 'bad hogaak'. I guess it isn't susceptible to Karakas, so that's something right? Lol...
    That was the point of my comment. When I tested a build closer to yours with fast dudes and graveyard recursion, when it did well it did well because of the Hogaak stuff, not because of Trademage. Trademage felt really clunky at 3cc in a deck with few mana sources. You can loot for 1 mana and already discard most of what you want to discard. That begs the question... is it just bad Hogaak?

    In the ramp builds, at least there was a reason to play a 3cc looter. Chalice/Thorn pushes you away from spells, and ramp makes the cost much easier. Turn 3 is too late to play an Engine card in Legacy, especially in an aggressive deck.

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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    So the fast aggro plan is, admittedly, worse than Hogaak. That leaves an alternative plan where 1) being 3 mana is a bonus rather than setback, like with a stompy setup with Chalice, or 2) a value engine that takes full advantage of the graveyard in a mid-range shell.
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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    I think Trademage is a serviceable creature, but I think Hollow One is a trap unless you have some reliable way to slam down two or three copies of it early. A 4/4 with no on-the-battlefield abilities is outclassed by almost everything, and the times when you don't have an enabler, it's just dead. Cycling means very little, since if you're using your mana to cycle, you probably aren't doing anything else.

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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    I think Trademage is a serviceable creature, but I think Hollow One is a trap unless you have some reliable way to slam down two or three copies of it early. A 4/4 with no on-the-battlefield abilities is outclassed by almost everything, and the times when you don't have an enabler, it's just dead. Cycling means very little, since if you're using your mana to cycle, you probably aren't doing anything else.
    I agree, which is why it needs support that also feeds into something else. I seems akin to Myr Enforcer, incredible when free while doing other stuff but boring by itself. Turn 1 4/4 is definitely above rate, but that's only on t1. Two of them t1 is approaching legacy power level. This is why it's so important to have Street Wraith/Careful Study to feed it. There might be a critical mass of synergism to be made, but so far it's not reliably consistent.

    One thing this strategy definitely has over something like dredge is that it mulligans much better. The Shadow plan is legit with Gurmag/hollow/vines, mostly because you want Wraith for both strategies and fetch/shock is fine to fix mana if shadow is in the mix. Its Shadow synergies overlapping with Hollow One and Vengevine. Shadow is my deck's Carrion Feeder.
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  11. #31
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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    it might make sense to run wonder as hollow one is significantly better as a 4/4 flyer. i think tarmogoyf is actually really good with a card that fills the graveyard as well, and it's not off-color if running vengevine too.
    -rob

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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    When I was testing against Delver, Tarmogoyf was a real problem. I kept making it big. They could even Mandrills away their whole GY and let me do the Goyf work for them. Goyf seems good on our side.

    Hollow One is significantly better if you have multiple multi-card discard outlets, not just the Bazaar, and it's better if you can enable it early (T1 Study or T2 Bazaar). With just Bazaar itself on turn 3, the 4/4 is too slow and you barely have enough cards to sandbag it anyway. Other discard outlets are good.

    One advantage of Hollow One: vanilla 4/4 is really good against Oko. 4-power hurts the Oko math, it eats Elks, and it feels bad to Elk a vanilla 4/4 just to -1/-1 it.

    Lotleth Troll might be decent in BUG.

  13. #33
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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    I don't think Bazaar Trademage can work in a 'fair'-ish agro deck. It might be ok in a toolbox deck (some spicy lists in here), could be great as a way to speed up the clock in a Stompy shell (Trademage/Hollow One/Vengvine with Chalice), but just as a 3/4 flyer that sometimes enables other threats seems to unreliable. Initial testing has been fairly poor.

    So the next question is this: would it be a good addition to a blue-based mana-less dredge deck? Manaless would have 3-4 Dread Returns, Trademage enables some mad dredging opportunities, and it's another blue card to more comfortably cast Force of Will/Negation to combat opposing combo decks or hate pieces. It would be a creature-based, but somewhat weaker, version of Breakthrough. Given how important attacking is with Manaless dredge it could be ok.

    EDIT: Whirlpool Rider is much better in mana-less dredge, so that avenue is out as well.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 03-19-2020 at 09:03 AM.
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  14. #34

    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Played a UG version of this deck using Bazaar Trademage and Intuition to dump a bunch of Vengevines into the graveyard and put cheap Hollow Ones into play. The deck is fun and I ended up going 3-5 with it over two weeks at the LGS. It is capable of quite explosive starts and can easily put 11 power on the board on turn two with at least four power being haste. I found 4 Noble Hierarch plus one/two Birds of Paradise (though maybe Gilded Goose now?) was essential as it powered out a turn two Intuition or Bazaar Trademage which are the best engines in the deck. It also makes an attacking Trademage four power in the air which is difficult to deal with and makes a turn two Vengevine swing for five.

    I ended up going closer to a Madness build and included several copies of Deep Analysis in the maindeck as a means to refill after resolving a Trademage or sometimes to reload with Intuition into Deep Analysis. I also added Noose Constrictor as an additional discard outlet as it allowed me to both "go-off" with Vengevine on turn two without a mana dork on turn one and the Reach ability is rather potent as a means to block Delver of Secrets. Ice-Fang Coatl was a big addition as it is removal, replaces itself, and is a creature to trigger Vengevine (at instant speed if you have two). I went back and forth on Careful Study - it enables some insane draws, but I only felt good resolving it if I hit a Deep Analysis or Vengevine - otherwise, it felt underwhelming. Brazen Borrow was not released when I tried the deck, but seems like an excellent maindeck inclusion. It may well be terrible, but I planned to test Skaab Ruinator before I moved to a different deck.

    A few other notes:
    • Played a few copies of Groundseal in the sideboard as a means to hedge against Surgical Extraction. It also useful against Reanimator, Dredge (limited), and decks with Dreadhorde Arcanist, Snapcaster Mage, and Mystic Sanctuary.
    • I went back and forth on Force of Will. Tried a version with only Daze and Spell Pierce - it wasn't terrible. I didn't own Wasteland at the time, but would probably include it if I had it as an option.
    • Its a bit dated, but quite powerful against any permanent based graveyard hate, but I kept 2-3 copies of Krosan Grip in the board. Might try Force of Vigor now.
    • Submerge was an MVP out of the board in this deck - with more Green creatures being played now, its probably only gotten better over time.
    • Veil seems like a good inclusion as the combo match-up always felt bad.
    • I would probably play 4 Brainstorm and some number of Ponder in this deck over Careful Study.
    • Wonder in the maindeck is great and a good way to cheat wins out of nowhere.
    • Thought about Fauna Shaman but its too slow unless you warp the build to put it out on turn one but that seems terrible. You also have to play a lot of support cards to allow for more than one activation in a turn which is both clunky and less powerful than other options.
    • I only tried Cloudvine once and had good success with the deck going 3-1. However, I would opt to play BUG or Bant Opposition over Cloudvine. My takeaway was Cloudvine was either trying to put a bunch of Vengevines into the yard with Intuition or resolve a Craterhoof Behemoth off of Gaea's Cradle, but didn't necessarily do either of those well; Opposition is a natural fit for a deck looking for something to do with a lot of creatures other than Craterhoof for very few slots whereas the Vengevine package was 7 to 8 slots. I even tried an OppoVine deck because why not and it was okay but again suffered from having poor support for two non-complementary plans to victory.

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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    So the next question is this: would it be a good addition to a blue-based mana-less dredge deck? Manaless would have 3-4 Dread Returns, Trademage
    Dredge has had better options for over a decade

    Cephalid Sage
    Sphinx of Lost Truths
    Griselbrand (yes, the Grizzly guy "strictly better"s even in Dredge. If you are ever cheating a creature into play in Legacy, it needs a very very good reason to be anything other than Griselbrand)

    The only thing Trademage has going for it is costing 2U while some of the better draw engines cost more mana. If you cheat the cost, it defeats the purpose.

    The Noble Hierarch/Intuition version seems interesting.

  16. #36
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    Re: [SCD]Bazaar Trademage

    Can you share the cloudvine list? What were your matchups?
    -rob

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