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Thread: Song of Creation Storm

  1. #81
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    The riddlesmith deck had a really good reanimator matchup (one of it's best matchups), so i'm a bit surprised. But that deck had multiple bouncespells and the play of gamble for karakas after BR put an Iona on blue, so that might be the difference.
    If you look at the history of it i started with 2 crypt 2 faerie macabre 1 silent gravestone but the longer i played it the more i cut graveyard hate as it just was not needed.

    Karakas was a very good card in that deck as an answer to Thalia, teeg, and big monsters. But i do think it's a bit to random without any way to tutor for it, even if it has kind of nice emry interaction.
    Interesting. My version runs 4x Gamble. Would you recommend 1-of Karakas in the SB then? The main seems tight for lands and doesn't run white.

    Edit: Oh, that was your version of Breach with Riddlesmith tech. Just went through the link. I remember that build. Good tech.
    I never worried about Reanimator with Breach, though that was because most builds had FoW and also Breach was broken. When you bring a gun to a knife fight, you don't worry about the knife.

    Song costing 1RUG instead of 1R is a relevant difference. This deck is slower to go off and needs to conserve more of its fast mana for resolving Song or drawing cards, which affects the clock against other combo decks. But we still have fast lines of Gamble into Echo.

  2. #82

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiFunn View Post
    You're the original creator of the Riddlestorm deck? That's super cool, I've always loved RS but you're the first person I ever saw pair it with Ovalchase Daredevil. Thank you for the idea! It really adds a lot to the song of creation deck.
    Yes, i'm MartinMedMitten on MTGO. Riddlesmith has been a pet card of mine since ~2014, and it has been fun getting new toys for it. My early builds had Deep Analysis in them as a way to refuel from the GY and echo of eons is quite the upgrade :)


    @FTW
    I think it could be worth trying an karakas still. I've always played one, both before and after the short breach meta. I don't play that deck much anymore, (mostly because it takes so many clicks to win) but if i would i would not add more graveyard hate besides the two tormods crypt.

  3. #83
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    @FTW
    I think it could be worth trying an karakas still. I've always played one, both before and after the short breach meta. I don't play that deck much anymore, (mostly because it takes so many clicks to win) but if i would i would not add more graveyard hate besides the two tormods crypt.
    After Breach was banned, what did you play in those slots? Did you keep playing the deck after that?

    I see before Breach you still made 10th in a Challenge just with the full 4 Narset and maindeck bounce. Maybe the bounce is what made the difference.

    Did you ever try Burning Wish? That seems like a natural fit with Gamble + LED + Echo.

  4. #84

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I did try many things, i really wanted to get cavern of souls+grand abolisher to work as it makes my opponent largely irrelevant. I did try ominous seas as an alternative way of attack. But mostly i just went up to 4 of everything.

    I have tried burning wish on multiple occasions. The thing is that the deck is extremely land light (some versions run only 6 lands) and the only thing you want to wish for is echo of eons, but with 4 gamble 4 echo getting LED is more of a bottleneck than getting echo (i did try transmute artifact and artificiers intuition, but they were too mana intensive).

    But i agree, song decks are more mana intensive and quite different. I'm brewing my own song variant now, without riddlesmith (SamuraiFunn has that covered :)). I really like song, i've won games where i tap out to play a song when my opponent has null rod in play, and i still chain zero mana artifacts until i get 2 land drops -> wish for pulverize. It's a really robust engine card. I need to get some more games in but then i might have something to share.

  5. #85

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    I need to get some more games in but then i might have something to share.
    Awesome, super excited to see what you come up with

  6. #86
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    But i agree, song decks are more mana intensive and quite different. I'm brewing my own song variant now, without riddlesmith (SamuraiFunn has that covered :)). I really like song, i've won games where i tap out to play a song when my opponent has null rod in play, and i still chain zero mana artifacts until i get 2 land drops -> wish for pulverize. It's a really robust engine card. I need to get some more games in but then i might have something to share.
    That was my feel for the engine too once I started brewing with it. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. You have a good knack for combo brews.

    This is what I'm on now.


    //Spells: 22
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gamble
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Manamorphose
    3 Echo of Eons

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Song of Creation

    //Artifacts: 19
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Chrome Mox
    3 Defense Grid

    //Lands: 15
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Wooded Foothills
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Taiga
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Snow-Covered Mountain

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Empty the Warrens
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Pulverize
    1 Cave-In
    1 Reverent Silence
    2 Hope of Ghirapur
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Echoing Truth


    I'm enjoying Burning Wish for Echo lines, SB answers, and natural storm lines with Empty and Tendrils. Because Wish finds Echo, that means sometimes I Gamble for LED or Song and risk whiffing, but I can usually sequence my hand so I keep everything relevant with > 66% chance. I also board out Gamble in matchups where consistency matters more than flashiness.

    Rather than trying to defend Song with Veil of Summer (1RUGG) or Pyroblast (1RRUG) or Spell Pierce (1RUUG), I've been sticking to protection that can be cast the turn before: Defense Grid and Hope of Ghirapur. That reduces some burden on the mana. Both also work well with Echo.

    For a while I was splashing black with 1 Badlands to have SB Abrupt Decay and Massacre. It's a toss-up. Decay is a much more guaranteed answer to a lot of problems, but drawing Badlands/Underground Sea is really bad sometimes.

    There's probably a way to make this work with Baubles and Emry, Lurker of the Loch. Emry + Hope of Ghirapur makes a softlock, which is pretty cool. Emry also recycles Defense Grid. You're better at designing those engines. I briefly tried it, but then I backed off the artifact engine for more mana and more must-answers with a natural storm plan B.

    Without Riddlesmith or Emry I basically ignore creature removal and grave hate.

    I've been on 3-4 Empties to board in the fast Goblin plan to slide under disruption.

    Cave-In is tech I can pull off with such a high red count. Otherwise that slot probably has to be Massacre, Flame Slash, Pyroclasm or Forked Bolt.

    The non-Wishboard spots are tight, so I try to have them answer as many problems as possible. Echoing Truth answers more things than Abrade while getting around Chalice @ 1 (if Chalice @ 0 becomes more common again then I might go to Chain). Surgical Extraction is gravehate that can also can get rid of pesky cards like Force of Will before casting an Echo.

  7. #87

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    .

    Without Riddlesmith or Emry I basically ignore creature removal and grave hate.
    ....

    The non-Wishboard spots are tight, so I try to have them answer as many problems as possible. Echoing Truth answers more things than Abrade while getting around Chalice @ 1 (if Chalice @ 0 becomes more common again then I might go to Chain). Surgical Extraction is gravehate that can also can get rid of pesky cards like Force of Will before casting an Echo.
    Iíve been playing a similar list. We are however a huge dog to reanimator in my experience. I did put a pair of tormods crypts in the board, to go with the opals, but maybe surgical is just better being turn 0 castable and for the reasons you give above.

  8. #88

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    A couple points of criticism, if you guys are having trouble with faster Storm and Reanimator then Telemin Performance would do you a world of good. Manamorphose and Rite of Flame can probably be consolidated into Tinder Wall so that you can play with Veil of Summer. Tinder Wall, go is both a man fixer and mana ramp and not having a G disruption spell to go along with LED -> Echo of Eons is kind of wtf.

  9. #89

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I don't think telemin performance would improve the reanimator matchup. If i get to cast a 5 mana spell vs them i could just win instead of risk getting a chancellor/children of korlis that don't do that much. Also i don't think anyone is having problems vs faster combo?

    Also in my experience veil of summer under performs as protection in the current meta, fow decks are < 50% of the meta while surgical is > 50 %, permanent hate is everywhere and the use of mindbreak trap is up.

  10. #90
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I don't see Telemin Performance helping. The games we struggle aren't the ones where we can resolve Wish with 5 mana, and SB space is tight.

    Faster combo isn't really an issue. This deck can clock. Fighting multiple pieces of disruption is the bigger challenge.

    Reanimator is tough because they're disruptive combo: either T1 Iona, T1 Chancellor or T1 draw 14 + double Unmask is pretty disruptive and doesn't leave much time to recover. I think Surgical will help more than Crypt but it's still a rough match.

    I've been considering -3 Manamorphose +3 Veil of Summer. Manamorphose is already the first thing I board out, and it doesn't really impede the engine. In the Xerox build I was getting sick of Veil and found it clunky (even against Delver), but without any Veils at all I'm starting to miss it. It helps Echo lines and baits counters. Orim's Chant covers more problems but is off color.

    Tinder Wall is worse than Rite of Flame here. Like Grim Monolith its advantage comes as delayed ramp, but more often we want ramp this turn. Rite ramps into more Rites, while Tinder Wall doesn't ramp into more Tinder Walls, and that's a pretty big limitation when storming off. With our draw engines we regularly hit multiple Rites so it matters. Passing the turn with Tinder Wall also turns on their removal, which is otherwise dead.

  11. #91
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Here are some more test games with the build I posted above, just to show the explosive T1s and T2s. Many of these are not tier 1 decks.

    With 7 Echoes and postboard Empty, I'm not worried about racing even when we don't have the mana for fast Song. Disruption is tougher, especially beyond the first 1-2 pieces.


    vs Depths OTP
    G1 W - T2 Echo -> Song -> very large Tendrils
    G2 L - double Thoughtseize into T3 Crop Rotated Marit Lage blocking Hope
    G3 W - T1 14 Goblins OTP

    vs Depths OTD
    G1 W - His T1 Therapy for Song missed. T1 Gamble -> Echo -> Song -> Tendrils. (Apparently he had T2 Marit Lage OTP)
    G2 W - Double discard (LED & Gamble) into Reclaimer, but no early Marit Lage. Hope drew Force of Vigor, then Brainstorm into Song won with just Petal, some luck, and the Brainstorm+LED+fetch trick to reduce chances of fizzling

    vs Burn OTD
    G1 W - T1 Gamble for LED hit -> Echo -> Wish -> natural Tendrilsx12
    G2 W - T1 Echo. T2 Song -> Tendrils

    vs Burn OTP
    G1 W - T2 Wish for Echo (12 Goblins seemed too slow). T3 Song -> Tendrils
    G2 L - Couldn't remove Eidolon
    G3 W - EOT bounce Eidolon, T3 Song -> Tendrils

    vs Maverick OTP
    G1 W - T1 Echo -> Echo -> Song -> Tendrilsx27 behind Grid
    G2 W - T2 Song -> Tendrils (Opponent mulled and had T3 Zenith into Ouphe, too slow)

    vs Maverick OTD
    G1 W - Wish for Cave-In killed Hierarch+Thalia+Ooze+Reclaimer, then Echo -> Echo -> Grid + Wish -> natural Tendrilsx19
    G2 W - 10 Goblins got there, with bounce on Ouphe.

    vs RUG Delver OTP
    G1 W - Dumped my hand into T1 Song (got lucky with no FoW) and passed with 2 lands + Chrome. Opponent plays land and passes. I topdeck Brainstorm. It gets Pierced, but I still draw enough in those 2 cards to go off -> Tendrils behind Grid.
    G2 L - Opponent mulled to 5 for FoW. Lost to Daze + FoW + 2x Wasteland + Stifle on Empty. Ouch.
    G3 L - Mull to 6. FoW on Wish stopped Empty. Surgical on FoW got countered by 2nd FoW. At 8 life vs 2x Delver + Goyf, I drew 2nd Wish into Echo into maindeck Empty for 22 Goblins (after getting Grid Pierced, which luckily tapped him out for Fluster and Stifle). Unfortunately opponent topdecked Bolt to flip 2nd Delver and hit me for 9.

    vs RUG Delver OTD
    G1 W - Managed to resolve T3 Song paying for Daze and Pierce with Petal+LED (discarding an Echo), then had to pass. Topdecked Wish, which got Dazed, but the draw 2 was enough to chain into Tendrils!
    G2 W - Beat a hand of 2x Waste + Force + Daze + Oko with Turn 1 Mountain, Petal, Hope (opponent didn't FoW). Hope allowed T2 Echo -> 14 Goblins. Stopping Hope was probably worth Force pitching Daze/Oko. Maybe he thought he'd have time to Elk it and would lose without the Force.

    vs Black Stompy OTP
    G1 W - He had T0 Leyline, but no T1 Chalice. I had T2 Song -> Win (He would have had Karn & Helm for T2 ouch)
    G2 W - T0 Leyline, T2 3sphere, T3 2nd sphere but no clock. 3-mana Brainstorm into 3-mana Gamble found Echoing Truth. EOT bounce spheres, then Song -> Tendrils. If he had 3sphere+Karn or 3sphere+Chalice I would have lost hard.


    I need to get multiple test games in with BR Reanimator in the current configuration. My SB plan is
    +2 Surgical
    +2 Echoing Truth
    -3 Grid
    -1 Manamorphose

    I also need to test more against Snowko and Miracles. I'll probably end up adding Veils.

  12. #92

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I think hitting multiple Rite of Flames after a Song of Creation is a win more problem, once the Enchantment is down the win is inevitable. The first Tinder Wall is a mana fixing Rite of Flame with the option of Tinder Wall, go. If people keep creature removal in their deck because of the possibility of Tinder Wall, go then the card is punching above its weight. Regardless, I don't think the deck has enough disruption. you're slamming Song of Creation into their counter wall (especially Daze) in order to push your other threats through. The more disruption you MD, the less you have to SB.

  13. #93
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Regardless, I don't think the deck has enough disruption. you're slamming Song of Creation into their counter wall (especially Daze) in order to push your other threats through. The more disruption you MD, the less you have to SB.
    Yeah I agree. I'm thinking of adding back Veil.

    So far the plan was to overload their disruption with multiple engines: Song, Echo, Wish, maindeck Empty. Gamble to find more gas. I'm fine losing the first 1-2. The draw engines are so insane I can refuel quickly. Between that and Grid and Hope, that's a lot to stop. I also play around Daze when I'm not about to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I think hitting multiple Rite of Flames after a Song of Creation is a win more problem, once the Enchantment is down the win is inevitable. The first Tinder Wall is a mana fixing Rite of Flame with the option of Tinder Wall, go.
    At least in my build, getting red first is more useful due to Gamble, Burning Wish, postboard Empty, and access to Pulverize. I don't want Tropical first, which reduces the color fixing mode of Tinder Wall. Veil will increase use of green, but it's still a secondary color. In a different mana configuration Tinder Wall's fixing could help.

    Double Rite comes up in some openers. Or you can have red floating through an Echo and draw a Rite. There's no reason to float green, so D7 into 1-2 Tinder Wall is more awkward than D7 into Rites. With Song out, chaining Rites makes Rite count as a "free" spell which helps minimize the fizzle rate. If you draw a bunch of lands in a row, that uncastable Tinder Wall looks pretty awkward. Other builds are running bad 0ccs like Bauble to have a critical mass of free spells, but I can cheat on that by using Rite.

    If people keep creature removal in their deck because of the possibility of Tinder Wall, go then the card is punching above its weight.
    I mean in game 1. You want their removal dead G1 to mulligan them to smaller hand size. Winning game 1 is pretty important in explosive combo. Fighting postboard disruption is harder.

  14. #94

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yeah I agree. I'm thinking of adding back Veil.

    So far the plan was to overload their disruption with multiple engines: Song, Echo, Wish, maindeck Empty. Gamble to find more gas. I'm fine losing the first 1-2. The draw engines are so insane I can refuel quickly. Between that and Grid and Hope, that's a lot to stop. I also play around Daze when I'm not about to die.



    At least in my build, getting red first is more useful due to Gamble, Burning Wish, postboard Empty, and access to Pulverize. I don't want Tropical first, which reduces the color fixing mode of Tinder Wall. Veil will increase use of green, but it's still a secondary color. In a different mana configuration Tinder Wall's fixing could help.

    Double Rite comes up in some openers. Or you can have red floating through an Echo and draw a Rite. There's no reason to float green, so D7 into 1-2 Tinder Wall is more awkward than D7 into Rites. With Song out, chaining Rites makes Rite count as a "free" spell which helps minimize the fizzle rate. If you draw a bunch of lands in a row, that uncastable Tinder Wall looks pretty awkward. Other builds are running bad 0ccs like Bauble to have a critical mass of free spells, but I can cheat on that by using Rite.



    I mean in game 1. You want their removal dead G1 to mulligan them to smaller hand size. Winning game 1 is pretty important in explosive combo. Fighting postboard disruption is harder.
    I think it depends on what lines of play you want to emphasize, I see Tropical Island into Tinder Wall and untapping with Veil of Summer in hand as a strong play because it lets you get 2xGreen for your disruption and your win condition. Maybe that's a problem better solved by just MDing more Grids and Hopes though for all colorless disruption, there are different ways to go about it.

  15. #95
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    That's also a strong line. It does make 1RUGG much easier.

    Yeah, I tend to emphasize other lines that leave red options open if I need them. Because I play red-heavy, the colorless tools are easier on the mana. That's why I have Hope over Xantid, even though Xantid is better in a lot of cases. (Hope does lock them out on their turn too, which can be useful for stalling combo decks or Karn/lock pieces)

    Leading with basic Mountain and uncracked fetches has advantages for dodging Wasteland. Otherwise Volcanic turns on the most topdecks. If I need to Wish for Pulverize to break a Null Rod or Chalice, it's easier with a mountain already in play. If Song is stopped or I have to pass after a protected Echo, untapping with red lets me play more plan Bs than Tropical would. But maybe I wouldn't need to rely so much on plan Bs with better protection for the first spell. I'll have to think about it.
    Last edited by FTW; 07-12-2020 at 01:15 AM.

  16. #96

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    This is what i built and played through 5 leagues, starting out 3-2, 4-1, 4-1, 1-3(that version i had 4 daze instead of dark rituals) and finally a 5-0 after i added gemstone mines.
    It's inspired by vintage rector-tendrils from 2005-2006 (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=4333&iddeck=17666). I've tried to build that deck in legacy before, but as bargain is banned, legacy has not had a good draw engine until now.


    2 Mox Diamond
    3 Chrome Mox
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Mox Opal

    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand

    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland

    4 Dark Ritual

    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Teferi, Time Raveler

    3 Song of Creation
    1 Omniscience
    1 Echo of Eons
    4 Academy Rector
    4 Burning Wish

    4 Brainstorm
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Entomb

    SB:
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Void Snare
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Grapeshot
    2 Veil of Summer
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Diabolic Intent
    1 Devastation Tide
    1 Massacre
    1 Shattering Spree


    Shattering spree should be by force as i don't have that much red mana.

    The mana is soo rough, i think rainbow lands are necessary. Not really sure if gemstone mine are the best choice but i had no trouble with them this league. My mana rock composition feels a bit random but I've had too many games where i draw 3 mox opal and only 1 other artifact, and chrome mox very often gets played without an imprint. Very often LEDs does not get cracked all game so i cut down on all of those and added 2 mox diamond.

    Life from the loam was a last minute addition, i wanted to add an entomb that could fetch either echo of eons or an cabal therapy and thought about if i could have another target. I realized that dredge cards work really nice when you have to pass the turn, you can guarantee that you get a spell next turn, and if you then draw 1 more spell you can return the dredge spell with the draw from song. Also good vs wasteland.
    I boarded it out a lot, but actually burning wished for it once :)

    I really like discard as protection even with veil of summer running rampant. It's good to know what you are up against.

    Dark ritual is so bad at casting Song of creation, i felt like the worlds worst deckbuilder when i had 3 lands in plan, 2 dark rituals and 2 song of creations in hand.... But then i top deck a lotus petal and win, so it's fine.

    The 5-0 was yesterday. I decided to join the showcase challenge today with the following changes
    -1 shattering spree
    -1 veil of summer
    +1 by force
    +1 shenanigans
    I had rarely boarded both veils in, but sometimes felt that i wanted more artifact hate.

    The showcase challenge was a disaster for me. I misplayed and got unlucky match 1. Match 2 and match 4 i would not have won playing any combo deck.
    But i will probably play it out.

    I see SamuraiFunn is currently 2-1, so... go song! :)

  17. #97
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Interesting deck build! I loved Rector-Bargain and was hoping there would be a reason to play Rector again some day.

    Too bad about the showcase. What were the two anti-combo matches that crushed you in rounds 2 and 4?

    Good luck to SamuraiFunn!

  18. #98

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    It was not that the matchups were unwinnable, but the first was delver who just did the delver nut draw of t1 delver, followed by waste stifle/daze/fow. The other one was monored stompy who played hate cards t1/t2 and then karn to lock away the game. Had no turn where i could play spells :)

  19. #99
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    really cool idea w/ the academy rector. do you think manamorphose has a place in this list over dark ritual? is it really necessary to ritual out the rector?
    -rob

  20. #100
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    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    It was not that the matchups were unwinnable, but the first was delver who just did the delver nut draw of t1 delver, followed by waste stifle/daze/fow. The other one was monored stompy who played hate cards t1/t2 and then karn to lock away the game. Had no turn where i could play spells :)
    Moon Stompy with early resistors into Karn sounds just about unbeatable. I think we just have to accept those losses.

    Beating T1 Delver with FoW + Daze + Wasteland is a lot easier for builds like mine in 3 colors, especially with at least 1 basic. I haven't had a hard time with Delver unless they have a really OP start like double Delver or double FoW or Stifling my turn 1 fetch on a 1-lander. The 5 color manabase looks a lot rougher in tempo matches.

    What matchups are you gaining on the 5c rector plan? Do you do better against combo like BR Reanimator with all that discard?

    Could you simplify the manabase cutting down to BRw or BUw with Ancient Tomb acceleration (so you don't rely as much on Ritual to resolve Rector)? Maybe you don't need to hardcast Song off lands. You could also go Entomb into Replenish or hardcast off artifact mana.

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