Ok I agree manamorphose is not good enough. Scepter will feel real bad if we don't have at least 12 good instants to put on it, is 4 brainstorm 4 chant 4 dispel/spell pierce/fluster good enough? If we run abeyance or veil in the disruption slot how bad is the blue count?
@Reeplcheep: if you want to play Scepter and stick to Jeskai, then Boros Charm is a legit wincon (also, it protects Zirda from Decay and Bolt...).
I think abeyance seems better as a sudo-timewalk and still gg with teferi if I'm not going to run a blue card. I do like boros charm but I feel scepter is more likely to be elked or councils' judged than disenchanted nowadays.Originally Posted by aedemiel
Well, 4 of those 8 wins were turn 1 win hands without opponent having counters. So some of that was luck. Based on your goldfish results turn 1 hands happen maybe 12% of the time, and opponent will have a counter at least half the time (FoW OTP, FoW or Daze or Pierce OTD). But yeah, it should be one of our worst matches so it's not terrible. Stifle was much bigger problem than I expected.
It should do well against most nonblue decks and Snow control (one FoW without a clock can be fought through). Chalice decks might be a decent matchup, since we can go off through Chalice @ 1. Chalice @ 0 stops some mana rocks but there's still SSG.I think the all-in builds are much better suited to beat the more popular snow control and UR Delver decks.
UR Delver sounds hard. Counters + Bolts + fast clock is tough to beat.
I haven't tested the UW build as much but it feels like less of a coin flip. You don't get those decisive turn 1-2 wins when they just don't have an answer, but the draws are a lot better as the game goes on. I have to test more matches with it first. The decision trees are more complex.
I hate playing online and I can't play in person given . . . everything, but in goldfishing it has been going very well (with my list brainstormed from yesterday 04:26 PM), so results could change against live opponents:
Out of 50
- Turn 1: 0
- Turn 2: 12
- -No protection: 4
- -With protection: 8 (7 of these were FOW/Daze, but another was me getting an extra petal and casting Chant)
- Turn 3: 24
- -No protection: 3
- -With 1 protection piece : 13 (No always FOW/Daze, given what accel you've drawn (anything extra or if you have Grim monolith the turn before this could be chant/other protection. However, I aggressively searched for FOW/Daze to protect casting grim monolith turn 2)
- -With 2 protection pieces: 8 (in full honesty, I've been treating the open 1cmc blue spots in my deck as "blue silences" - no clue what 1 cmc counter would be best here. Needs to be blue for FOW purposes)
- Turn 4: 10
- -No protection: 1
- -With 1 protection piece: 5
- -With 2 protection pieces:4
- Turn 5 (assumed Loss): 4 (I've been assuming that when we pass the turn on turn 4 we will lose that game).
I would not make that assumption for the Xerox shell. For the all-in shell yes (even turn 4 OTD is probably a loss), but UW can play a grindy game.
I tested some against RUG Delver again, winning 7/10. Small sample size. But most of my wins were later in the game, unlike the all-in build that had to go fast or lost.
One win was turn 30. After facing 3 FoW + Spell Pierce early, then having Mr Fox killed. I had the mana to go infinite in response, but he had Stifle for the Karn activation and then killed Karn. With cantrips I eventually found another Karn to get Ensnaring Bridge to stay alive at 4 life (forcing Bolt on Karn to stop Lattice). Then I managed to find another Karn and Lattice at 1 life. Then I dug up Ballista, he had FoW (through Lattice), I was ready with 5 lands to hardcast FoW (at 1 life), but he also had Daze. Eventually I found another Ballista and got there with pings. Brainstorm is a good card.
For the all-in builds it makes sense to look at Goldfish speed, but the UW build is better measured by how it beats disruption and digs into a second wind. That's the point of playing blue. It's never going to goldfish as fast, but how does it deal with disruption?
That's great to hear - but on the last point, it's still goldfishing pretty well. Like maybe in real games I will mulligan differently and be less aggressive but it's a fairly consistent turn <3 win % even with lots of protection and cantrips
One minor note, but I don't think one can Force of Will by pitching cards with a Mycosynth Lattice in play, because all cards are now colorless (and not in addition to other colors, they are just flat colorless), so you should have won that much sooner.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Oh right, Daze works but FoW doesn't. Well either way it's a pretty sure lock with Bridge + Lattice out and even adding 1-2 counters per turn to Ballista will do it.
@Cire: Yeah that is encouraging that it can still goldfish quickly. I just wouldn't assume the turn 5s are losses or that lack of turn 1s is bad. It's trying to accomplish a different thing. What does your current build look like?
This is probably pretty crazy, but this is a deck that likes artifacts, wants to play emry & teferi, and always has access to a 3 cmc legendary.
This seems like it could be a pretty awesome amber mox deck. You just need a legendary that is a infinite mana outlet, and guess what thrasious works. Thrasious is also decent with a fair fox.
Possible list:
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Grim Monolith
1 Savannah
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Tundra
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Forest
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Lotus Petal
1 Magma Mine
2 Flooded Strand
3 Isochron Scepter
3 Mox Amber
4 Thrasios, Triton Hero
2 Veil of Summer
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
Alternatively 12 blue legendaries makes fow playable probably.
Decklist here:
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Grim Monolith
1 Savannah
3 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Tundra
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Forest
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
1 Magma Mine
2 Flooded Strand
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Mox Amber
3 Thrasios, Triton Hero
4 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath
This deck is not too fast but has a crazy amount of protection (4 silence, 4 fow, 4 teferi)
I've been working with the below at the moment:
10 U fetchs
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Snow-covered island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tundra
3 Karn
3 Hangerback Walker
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Pact of Negation
3 Daze
3 Orim's Chant
2 Ponder
SB-
Companion - Zidra
1 Lattice
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Hangerback Walker
11?
Quick question about the Companion on this card. Don't the lands need to have some activated ability since it says "Permanent Card" and not "nonland permanent"?
So like, aren't all of these lists ineligible? I think the filter lands from OTJ and from Lorwyn work though.
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability “Mana Tap: Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool,” even if the text box doesn’t actually contain that text or the object has no text box.
Most lands tap for mana which is an activated ability.
edit- ninja'd
Well, I'm dumb then, carry on.
In the mono-R all-in list, I've been thinking about some number of Daretti, Scrap Savant. The overall idea of then deck, then, is to just overload their counterspells and artifact removal by repeatedly jamming a monolith, a Karn to get a monolith, or a Daretti to recur a dead monolith, and then once a monolith finally sticks, to use Cavern to cast Zirda with enough mana up to win through removal. Unlike Goblin Engineer/Welder, it's immune to creature removal and can win the game the turn you draw it in top-deck mode. So in the OP list, just -3 Pyroblast, +3 Daretti?
Also, in testing against decks rather then just goldfishing, Retrofitter Foundry has actually been okay at grinding out some games, especially in multiples, so I've been liking running 4x of those.
Finally: I've been liking 1x Defense Grid as a Karn target in the board.
Do you ever have a position where you resolve Karn and get to resolve the artifact you find with it but aren't already ahead?
Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge and Mycosynth Lattice are my targets outside of the combo. 3sphere stops things on their turn too. Yet I don't think I've gotten it once. If I have Karn, I'm less worried about resolving spells (what DGrid helps) than surviving what's on the board (Bridge) or just winning (Lattice/combo).
Daretti's interesting. What are the minimal requirements to win with it in topdeck mode? 3RRR + an artifact? It does save you some mana compared to Karn.
I've come across cases where I have 2 mana up after resolving Karn, ie., not enough for Basalt Monolith this turn. It's nice to have a way to protect the monolith the following turn in that scenario.
OK @Wanderlust, I think I've come around to mono R for speed, incl. Karns and that fun-of Daretti.
Jesus, this thing is fast. My adjusted list even makes a few concessions for a post-board Chalice plan (XX-robots over Magma Mine) and yet:
20 (pre-board) Goldfishes:
T1: 5 (25%) 4x no mull, 1x mull to 6
T2: 10 (50%) -- 6x Hope-protected (!!) 6x no mull, 4x mull to 6
T3: 1 (could've been T4 + Hope) mull to 5
T4: 2 -- no mull (bad play?)
T5: 2 (i.e. taking calculated risks and fizzling) 1x no mull, 1x mull to 6
(I suspect these were a bit on the lucky side, but still.)
List:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2916442#paper
Running Ballista, Hangarback and Foundry over Magma Mine for non-combo functionality, especially postboard (a single MM remains in the side as a Karn target)
G2-3 this thing can pivot into: +4 Chalice, +3 Blood Moon, +1 Fox, +2 Big Chandra | - 4 Hope, - 3 Foundry, - X
for a little Dragon Stompy action while still threatening combo.
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