@Wanderlust: Thanks for the inclusion in the shell overview.
Some quick thoughts after Goldfishing my list quite a bit:
Most often kills T3 & T2, often with Hope of G and/or Cavern protection.
Magma Mine > Ballista (costs 1 less to cast)
Will have to tinker with the mana base a bit: casting Fox without LED can be tricky.
The Bauble self-scry before Tutoring (or not) is cute.
Not all that convinced with E Tutor. I like the idea of Goblin Engineer here, especially when operating on 4 Caverns. That would also make Emry enticing (in the Wishclaw slots), but I'm not ready to go there yet. I've really liked the Hope of G, Bauble, Petal, Wishclaw for Mox Opal synergies.
I'm not super experienced with combo in Legacy, but this feels potentially very broken to me.
The first deck I thought of when reading about the grim monolith+fox combo was the Turbo Forge deck which is probably the only other recent deck running Basalt Monolith. I'll put the link here because I think that can be useful to look at and compare with. It was/is a relatively strong deck.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Engine-Combo/
The deck above probably transformed into Turbo Forge as Mystic Forge was printed, and there's very little discussion about that but you can check the linked decklists on the second page if you're curious.
Honestly, the mana base is a lot more workable if you're not running Cavern. I don't think you need cavern for the Fox. Sure it makes the card uncounterable, but the main part of the combo is still counterable. I think it's better to just run Sol lands and Islands and then protect yourself with FOW, Daze, Pact of Negation - maybe even Te3fri or Hope. Cavern only covers half the combo and messes up your mana base. Don't think you need it.
Yeah LED seems unnecessary. Just play other mana-fixing instead, then you don't have to discard your hand.
Boros Signet? Arcum's Astrolabe? (labe converts sol land + snowbasic -> 1WW)
Though Magma Mine is still good either way, just for turning on Mox Opal.
I also think mana-fixing isn't strictly needed.
You need 2(r/w)(r/w) or 3(r/w)(r/w) to go off, split over two turns if need be. Assume the lines of play:
Turn 1 - Sol Land + Grim Monolith
Turn 2 - Land + Mox/Petal (+ colored card and/or land)) --> Zidra + Win Con
- In this situation Manafixing could stand in the Mox/Petal spot as it then you can tap the Monolith and convert that mana for colored mana.
Or:
Turn 1 - Sol Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Basalt Monolith
Turn 2 - Land --> Zidra + Win Con
- In this situation Manafixing could stand in the turn 2 land spot as it then you can tap the Monolith and convert that mana for colored mana.
But in both situations, why run mana fixing instead of moxes/petals and additional lands?
Edit:
Here are some lines without sol lands:
Turn 1 - Land
Turn 2 - Land + Grim Monolith
Turn 3 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con
Turn 1 - Land
Turn 2 - Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Basalat Monolith
Turn 3 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con
Turn 1 - Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Grim Monolith
Turn 2 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con
You will only need mana fixing in the last line and only if your mox can't produce R/W.
I'm thinking something like this. Considering md devil's play or welder.
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2 steel hellkite
4 orcish lumberjack
4 Hope of Ghirapur
3 walking ballista
1 tinder Wall
3 burning wish
3 mystic forge
2 LED
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 taiga
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
1 forest
1 mountain
Sideboard:
1 demonfire
1 Devil's Play
1 by force
1 rolling earthquake
1 Mr. Fox
1 walking ballista
1 sorcerous spyglass
1 living wish
1 emrakul, the promised end
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 basalt monolith
3 veil of summer
1 pyroclasm
1 firespout
I ran 20 Goldfishes with this list
//Lands: 20
12 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
//Creatures: 7
4 Hope of Ghirapur
3 Walking Ballista
//Spells: 8
4 Orim's Chant
4 Enlightened Tutor
//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator
//Artifacts: 21
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Magma Mine
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
2 Isochron Scepter
Scepter was in a filler spot. Could also be Arcum's Astrolabe or Boros Signet.
Summary
Turn 1 wins: 0
Turn 2 wins: 7
Turn 3 wins: 11
Slower: 2
Protected: 5
Unprotected: 15
Thoughts
1) Even though we have 7 Monolith + 11 wincon + 8 sol lands, there's still high variance in drawing one of each. Tutor helped. Still, mulliganing/ETutoring to find pieces reduces our chances of having enough mana and protection. Cantrip cartel might be better even if slower. Variance affects speed too.
2) The other limitation is getting enough mana for both Monolith and Fox. It's hard to win earlier than turn 3 just due to the mana requirements, casting it over 2 separate turns and/or dropping 2 Plains. Also Basalt Monolith is MUCH slower than Grim. It's a Time Walk for the opponent.
3) Karn is slow if we're in turbo mode. ETutor is faster. Karn functioned as Walking Ballista copies 4-7 (i.e. once we have infinite mana, it's a wincon from hand). In real games it will be useful for a plan B, but it's slow for racing with plan A.
4) 4 Plains could have been Caverns. White was mainly for Fox.
5) At least once I couldn't attack with Hope because I needed the Metalcraft for Opal to cast Fox. Awkward. Astrolabe might help, for both fixing and Metalcraft without losing a card.
Results
1) Mull to 6. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Ballista
2) Mull to 5. T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Mine
3) Mull to 5. T1 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista
4) T1 Hope. T2 Grim + Mine. T3 Fox with Hope protection
5) T1 Mine. T2 Grim. T3 Fox
6) T1 Grim. T2 Mine, Fox.
7) Mull to 6. T1 Hope. T2 Basalt + Fox -> Karn
8) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Mine with Chant protection
9) T1 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista
10) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox.
11) T1 Mine. T2 Grim -> Fox
12) T1 Scepter+Chant. Stall.... T6 Basalt -> Fox -> Mine
13) Mull to 6. T1 Grim. T2 Mine. .. can't find 2nd white. T4 Fox
14) T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Ballista
15) T1 Hope. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Mine with Hope protection
16) T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Mine/Karn
17) Mull to 5. T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Karn
18) T1 Hope. T2 Basalt -> Fox -> Ballista
19) T1 Scepter+Chant. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Ballista with double Chant protection
20) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista
FTW - you're right that Etutor helps with variance, but going off what we learned with the Breach combo decks (and remember I was a big propoenent of Etutor for those decks) I would suggest running 8+ cantrips and checking your variance then.
Well yeah, that was my point in #1. Between the mulligans and ETutor (effective mulligan), you don't keep enough cards for protection or redundancy and cantrips are probably better.
Because the combo is constrained by mana requirements, it's tough to race faster than turn 3 even if you make an all-in build, so I think a slower Xerox build is better.
I just posted that to test how viable an all-in build would be. Despite having 7 copies of each piece AND ETutor, variance and mana are both constraints on going faster.
@FTW: Would Serum Powder help with consistency? It has an activated ability, so it's fair game.
How are the colored mana requirements? Aside from Astrolabe, would Chromatic Star/Sphere help?
I've been goldfishing this Xerox list and it's a lot smoother.
Although it doesn't have some of the random T2 wins, it also feels a lot more consistent. The big thing is it runs much less card disadvantage so you aren't dumping your whole hand into the combo and blown out by disruption.
//Lands: 21
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains
//Artifacts: 8
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
2 Basalt Monolith
//Planeswalkers: 6
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator
//Creatures: 3
3 Walking Ballista
//Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Orim's Chant
2 Impulse
//Sideboard: 15
1 Mr Fox
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Walking Ballista
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Force of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Wear // Tear
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
I tried running fewer combo pieces and more cantrips/disruption, but it's more consistent this way. Magma Mine is unnecessary because Karn functions as wincons 4-7 from hand once you have infinite colorless mana.
I tested out Narset, Parter of Veils but 3 mana was too slow so I went with Impulse.
I tried Predict too, but because we don't profit off the GY like Breach and also need more mana to go off, it was a lot more durdly.
Flex slots:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Orim's Chant
2 Teferi
2 Astrolabe
2 Impulse
There is an argument for the 4th Ancient Tomb, not sure if it should be over a spell or a land.
Not sold on Serum Powder. It hasn't worked in any other tier combo deck. It's still mulliganing, which is high variance (could make your hand worse or better). You see as many cards with the London mulligan, you just keep fewer of them. Meanwhile Serum Powder is such a bad topdeck.
Star/Sphere seem like a worse version of Astrolabe. You don't need the extra card after casting Zirda, you want it earlier during setup. The only advantage is you can cast it off Sol/Monolith mana, but you could do the same with Boros Signet (which fixes both colors).
Karn, the Great Creator functions as Walking Ballista in hand. Wishclaw doesn't.
Example:
Your board: Plains, Plains, Monolith.
Tap out to cast Mr. Fox from Companion zone.
Use the floating 2 to untap Monolith
Get infinite colorless mana
Now if you have Karn in hand you can cast it and win the game, but if you have Wishclaw in hand you can't because you need colored mana. Colored mana is a major constraint in going off. Casting Zirda usually takes all the colored mana available. Wishclaw also pushes the manabase into Black (not useful for casting Zirda).
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)