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Thread: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

  1. #21

    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Another angle you could take for combo protection in the white shell is Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant.
    My thought exactly. I've been thinking about an up to date version of Scepter-Chant (with t3feri mainly) and this fox actually seems pretty good albeit a bit slow.

  2. #22
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    @Wanderlust: Thanks for the inclusion in the shell overview.

    Some quick thoughts after Goldfishing my list quite a bit:

    Most often kills T3 & T2, often with Hope of G and/or Cavern protection.

    Magma Mine > Ballista (costs 1 less to cast)
    Will have to tinker with the mana base a bit: casting Fox without LED can be tricky.
    The Bauble self-scry before Tutoring (or not) is cute.
    Not all that convinced with E Tutor. I like the idea of Goblin Engineer here, especially when operating on 4 Caverns. That would also make Emry enticing (in the Wishclaw slots), but I'm not ready to go there yet. I've really liked the Hope of G, Bauble, Petal, Wishclaw for Mox Opal synergies.

    I'm not super experienced with combo in Legacy, but this feels potentially very broken to me.

  3. #23
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    The first deck I thought of when reading about the grim monolith+fox combo was the Turbo Forge deck which is probably the only other recent deck running Basalt Monolith. I'll put the link here because I think that can be useful to look at and compare with. It was/is a relatively strong deck.

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Engine-Combo/

    The deck above probably transformed into Turbo Forge as Mystic Forge was printed, and there's very little discussion about that but you can check the linked decklists on the second page if you're curious.

  4. #24
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    Magma Mine > Ballista (costs 1 less to cast)
    How often does that matter, given that the wincon is infinite mana?

  5. #25
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderlust View Post
    Cire I've arrived at the same conclusion that jamming this into decks with other combos isn't feeling like the right direction. And I look forward to testing out your ideas: there's a lot to be said for just playing the best cards in the format, obviously. The main problem I see with the Xerox shell is the manabase: I don't see a way to max out on sol lands, much less have room for cavern of souls, and also be reliably deploying the blue cantrip cartel and having islands for Daze. Cutting down on sol lands inevitably slows down the deck, I would think. Is the trade-off in speed worth it? I look forward to seeing how things develop.
    Honestly, the mana base is a lot more workable if you're not running Cavern. I don't think you need cavern for the Fox. Sure it makes the card uncounterable, but the main part of the combo is still counterable. I think it's better to just run Sol lands and Islands and then protect yourself with FOW, Daze, Pact of Negation - maybe even Te3fri or Hope. Cavern only covers half the combo and messes up your mana base. Don't think you need it.
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    How often does that matter, given that the wincon is infinite mana?
    It matters quite a bit, because at least half the time we use LED to cast the Fox, so we need to play Ballista or MM before having infinite

  7. #27
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    It matters quite a bit, because at least half the time we use LED to cast the Fox, so we need to play Ballista or MM before having infinite
    Just don't play LED, it really isn't needed. Running LED turns this from a 2 card combo (Monolith + Win con) into a three card combo (Monolith + Win Con + Goblin Engineer/Emry, Lurker of the Loch). Why increase the complexity of the combo?
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  8. #28
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Yeah LED seems unnecessary. Just play other mana-fixing instead, then you don't have to discard your hand.

    Boros Signet? Arcum's Astrolabe? (labe converts sol land + snowbasic -> 1WW)

    Though Magma Mine is still good either way, just for turning on Mox Opal.

  9. #29
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yeah LED seems unnecessary. Just play other mana-fixing instead, then you don't have to discard your hand.

    Boros Signet? Arcum's Astrolabe? (labe converts sol land + snowbasic -> 1WW)

    Though Magma Mine is still good either way, just for turning on Mox Opal.
    I also think mana-fixing isn't strictly needed.

    You need 2(r/w)(r/w) or 3(r/w)(r/w) to go off, split over two turns if need be. Assume the lines of play:

    Turn 1 - Sol Land + Grim Monolith
    Turn 2 - Land + Mox/Petal (+ colored card and/or land)) --> Zidra + Win Con

    - In this situation Manafixing could stand in the Mox/Petal spot as it then you can tap the Monolith and convert that mana for colored mana.

    Or:

    Turn 1 - Sol Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Basalt Monolith
    Turn 2 - Land --> Zidra + Win Con

    - In this situation Manafixing could stand in the turn 2 land spot as it then you can tap the Monolith and convert that mana for colored mana.

    But in both situations, why run mana fixing instead of moxes/petals and additional lands?

    Edit:

    Here are some lines without sol lands:

    Turn 1 - Land
    Turn 2 - Land + Grim Monolith
    Turn 3 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con

    Turn 1 - Land
    Turn 2 - Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Basalat Monolith
    Turn 3 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con

    Turn 1 - Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Grim Monolith
    Turn 2 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con

    You will only need mana fixing in the last line and only if your mox can't produce R/W.
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  10. #30
    Last edited by kinda; 04-25-2020 at 11:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  11. #31
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Can't run Emrakul, the aeons torn, it doesn't have an activated ability.
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  12. #32
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    I ran 20 Goldfishes with this list


    //Lands: 20
    12 Snow-Covered Plains
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors

    //Creatures: 7
    4 Hope of Ghirapur
    3 Walking Ballista

    //Spells: 8
    4 Orim's Chant
    4 Enlightened Tutor

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    //Artifacts: 21
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Magma Mine
    4 Grim Monolith
    3 Basalt Monolith
    2 Isochron Scepter


    Scepter was in a filler spot. Could also be Arcum's Astrolabe or Boros Signet.


    Summary
    Turn 1 wins: 0
    Turn 2 wins: 7
    Turn 3 wins: 11
    Slower: 2

    Protected: 5
    Unprotected: 15


    Thoughts
    1) Even though we have 7 Monolith + 11 wincon + 8 sol lands, there's still high variance in drawing one of each. Tutor helped. Still, mulliganing/ETutoring to find pieces reduces our chances of having enough mana and protection. Cantrip cartel might be better even if slower. Variance affects speed too.

    2) The other limitation is getting enough mana for both Monolith and Fox. It's hard to win earlier than turn 3 just due to the mana requirements, casting it over 2 separate turns and/or dropping 2 Plains. Also Basalt Monolith is MUCH slower than Grim. It's a Time Walk for the opponent.

    3) Karn is slow if we're in turbo mode. ETutor is faster. Karn functioned as Walking Ballista copies 4-7 (i.e. once we have infinite mana, it's a wincon from hand). In real games it will be useful for a plan B, but it's slow for racing with plan A.

    4) 4 Plains could have been Caverns. White was mainly for Fox.

    5) At least once I couldn't attack with Hope because I needed the Metalcraft for Opal to cast Fox. Awkward. Astrolabe might help, for both fixing and Metalcraft without losing a card.


    Results
    1) Mull to 6. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Ballista

    2) Mull to 5. T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Mine

    3) Mull to 5. T1 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista

    4) T1 Hope. T2 Grim + Mine. T3 Fox with Hope protection

    5) T1 Mine. T2 Grim. T3 Fox

    6) T1 Grim. T2 Mine, Fox.

    7) Mull to 6. T1 Hope. T2 Basalt + Fox -> Karn

    8) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Mine with Chant protection

    9) T1 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista

    10) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox.

    11) T1 Mine. T2 Grim -> Fox

    12) T1 Scepter+Chant. Stall.... T6 Basalt -> Fox -> Mine

    13) Mull to 6. T1 Grim. T2 Mine. .. can't find 2nd white. T4 Fox

    14) T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Ballista

    15) T1 Hope. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Mine with Hope protection

    16) T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Mine/Karn

    17) Mull to 5. T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Karn

    18) T1 Hope. T2 Basalt -> Fox -> Ballista

    19) T1 Scepter+Chant. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Ballista with double Chant protection

    20) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista

  13. #33

    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Can't run Emrakul, the aeons torn, it doesn't have an activated ability.
    ****...you're right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  14. #34
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    FTW - you're right that Etutor helps with variance, but going off what we learned with the Breach combo decks (and remember I was a big propoenent of Etutor for those decks) I would suggest running 8+ cantrips and checking your variance then.
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    FTW - you're right that Etutor helps with variance, but going off what we learned with the Breach combo decks (and remember I was a big propoenent of Etutor for those decks) I would suggest running 8+ cantrips and checking your variance then.
    Well yeah, that was my point in #1. Between the mulligans and ETutor (effective mulligan), you don't keep enough cards for protection or redundancy and cantrips are probably better.

    Because the combo is constrained by mana requirements, it's tough to race faster than turn 3 even if you make an all-in build, so I think a slower Xerox build is better.

    I just posted that to test how viable an all-in build would be. Despite having 7 copies of each piece AND ETutor, variance and mana are both constraints on going faster.

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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post

    Scepter was in a filler spot. Could also be Arcum's Astrolabe or Boros Signet.
    I really like that list and thanks for the useful data. Only that filler slot should probably be some MD copies of Fox. I still like Wishclaw over Karn I think and splashing black shouldn't be too difficult.

  17. #37
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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    @FTW: Would Serum Powder help with consistency? It has an activated ability, so it's fair game.

    How are the colored mana requirements? Aside from Astrolabe, would Chromatic Star/Sphere help?

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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    I've been goldfishing this Xerox list and it's a lot smoother.

    Although it doesn't have some of the random T2 wins, it also feels a lot more consistent. The big thing is it runs much less card disadvantage so you aren't dumping your whole hand into the combo and blown out by disruption.


    //Lands: 21
    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Snow-Covered Plains

    //Artifacts: 8
    2 Arcum's Astrolabe
    4 Grim Monolith
    2 Basalt Monolith

    //Planeswalkers: 6
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    //Creatures: 3
    3 Walking Ballista

    //Spells: 22
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Orim's Chant
    2 Impulse

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Mr Fox
    1 Basalt Monolith
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Wear // Tear
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Council's Judgment


    I tried running fewer combo pieces and more cantrips/disruption, but it's more consistent this way. Magma Mine is unnecessary because Karn functions as wincons 4-7 from hand once you have infinite colorless mana.

    I tested out Narset, Parter of Veils but 3 mana was too slow so I went with Impulse.

    I tried Predict too, but because we don't profit off the GY like Breach and also need more mana to go off, it was a lot more durdly.

    Flex slots:
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Orim's Chant
    2 Teferi
    2 Astrolabe
    2 Impulse

    There is an argument for the 4th Ancient Tomb, not sure if it should be over a spell or a land.

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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    @FTW: Would Serum Powder help with consistency? It has an activated ability, so it's fair game.

    How are the colored mana requirements? Aside from Astrolabe, would Chromatic Star/Sphere help?
    Not sold on Serum Powder. It hasn't worked in any other tier combo deck. It's still mulliganing, which is high variance (could make your hand worse or better). You see as many cards with the London mulligan, you just keep fewer of them. Meanwhile Serum Powder is such a bad topdeck.

    Star/Sphere seem like a worse version of Astrolabe. You don't need the extra card after casting Zirda, you want it earlier during setup. The only advantage is you can cast it off Sol/Monolith mana, but you could do the same with Boros Signet (which fixes both colors).

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    Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    I really like that list and thanks for the useful data. Only that filler slot should probably be some MD copies of Fox. I still like Wishclaw over Karn I think and splashing black shouldn't be too difficult.
    Karn, the Great Creator functions as Walking Ballista in hand. Wishclaw doesn't.

    Example:
    Your board: Plains, Plains, Monolith.
    Tap out to cast Mr. Fox from Companion zone.
    Use the floating 2 to untap Monolith
    Get infinite colorless mana

    Now if you have Karn in hand you can cast it and win the game, but if you have Wishclaw in hand you can't because you need colored mana. Colored mana is a major constraint in going off. Casting Zirda usually takes all the colored mana available. Wishclaw also pushes the manabase into Black (not useful for casting Zirda).

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