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Thread: Companion mechanic & paper magic

  1. #21

    Re: Companion mechanic & paper magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    If someone gets to cast a free companion and then later on in the game their deck proves to be illegal it should absolutely be a game loss. That's akin to drawing extra cards or something. I'm not sure what the ruling would be, but anything less than a game loss is a slap in the face to the opponent
    Drawing extra cards isn't a game loss tho. This is covered under IPG 2.3 Game Play Error -- Hidden Card Error, and the penalty is a warning.

  2. #22

    Re: Companion mechanic & paper magic

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yeah this seems like clear Game Loss territory if you ever cast the illegal card.
    But it's not. If you cast any other card illegally it's not a game loss.
    If they do board it in by accident (e.g. because they netdecked and don't understand the deck, or they just forgot), the deck is illegal but they can never use the card anyway so it has no benefit. If they draw it and realize their mistake, they have to hide it and never cast it. They've boarded in something functionally equivalent to a Pokemon Card that reads "if this card is revealed, you lose the game". Do we really need any extra tournament procedures to police this violation?
    The deck is legal tho. A deck with Obosh (odds only companion) in the sideboard can have even CMC cards in it. What it can't do is use the companion ability. What you're suggesting is that people hide the fact that they've broken game rules and we don't want that. We should instead encourage players to do the right thing and call the judge, get their warning, and move on with the game. Like lets say you accidentally board something in that should preclude your companion, and you never use it, but you still win the game because of your companion. That's not "who cares" territory, that's very clear "You should be DQ'd for being a cheat" territory.

  3. #23
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    Re: Companion mechanic & paper magic

    If my opponent casts a lurrus in game 2 and I kill it and then they later delve for a gurmag or something that they boarded in and I die to it I absolutely am expecting my opponent to get a game loss.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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  4. #24
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    Re: Companion mechanic & paper magic

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    The deck is legal tho. A deck with Obosh (odds only companion) in the sideboard can have even CMC cards in it. What it can't do is use the companion ability.
    702.138a Companion is a keyword ability that functions outside the game. It’s written as “Companion—[Condition].” Before the game begins, you may reveal one card you own from outside the game with a companion ability whose condition is fulfilled by your starting deck. (See rule 103.1b.) If you do, once during that game, you may play that card from outside the game.

    I agree with your sentiment, but unfortunately you "use" the Companion ability as you start the game. If you announce you have Obosh at the beginning of the game, you are also announcing your deck has only odd CMCs.
    Announcing Lurrus and then oopsie drawing Gurmag is an equal GRV if you cast it or not, or cast Lurrus or not. There's no room to "gotcha" your opponent by feigning a companion and playing something else. It's potential for messy plays, but I agree with others that it serves to only be a negative to those misusing the ability, I can no incentive to misleading your opponent. There is no next-level to this line of thinking.
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  5. #25

    Re: Companion mechanic & paper magic

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    702.138a Companion is a keyword ability that functions outside the game. It’s written as “Companion—[Condition].” Before the game begins, you may reveal one card you own from outside the game with a companion ability whose condition is fulfilled by your starting deck. (See rule 103.1b.) If you do, once during that game, you may play that card from outside the game.

    I agree with your sentiment, but unfortunately you "use" the Companion ability as you start the game. If you announce you have Obosh at the beginning of the game, you are also announcing your deck has only odd CMCs.
    Announcing Lurrus and then oopsie drawing Gurmag is an equal GRV if you cast it or not, or cast Lurrus or not. There's no room to "gotcha" your opponent by feigning a companion and playing something else. It's potential for messy plays, but I agree with others that it serves to only be a negative to those misusing the ability, I can no incentive to misleading your opponent. There is no next-level to this line of thinking.
    What are you trying to say because I agree with the bolded part? I even cited it, IPG 2.5.

  6. #26
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    Re: Companion mechanic & paper magic

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    What are you trying to say because I agree with the bolded part? I even cited it, IPG 2.5.
    I guess two points

    1) There is no way to use the companion ability incorrectly that is not in violation of the IPG. Some people have implied it's only a problem if you cast a companion first, then demonstrate deck building violations after, but some how if you cast Gurmag first then say "Oops, I forgot I sided him in, guess I can't cast Lurrus now" that that is somehow less a violation. Both are violations. The companion ability starts at the beginning of the game, not when you decide to cast the creature.

    2) There is nothing to gain from cheating this. Other deck building restrictions are much more beneficial. Playing 5 Force of Wills will give you a noticeable advantage unless you're caught. But since you have to announce your companion on Turn 0, 100% of the cards you play are able to be checked against the companion. Showing up with Pokemon cards sleeved up is much risk/zero reward. So the whole exercise is moot. Why bother?

    Also none of these points are meant to confront you specifically, your comment about how having Obosh in your sideboard is a legal deck is technically accurate (the best kind) but betrays the deeper argument:
    Obosh in you sideboard with even costs in your deck is legal
    Obosh in you sideboard with even costs in your deck and you announce him on T0 is not
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  7. #27

    Re: Companion mechanic & paper magic

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I guess two points

    1) There is no way to use the companion ability incorrectly that is not in violation of the IPG. Some people have implied it's only a problem if you cast a companion first, then demonstrate deck building violations after, but some how if you cast Gurmag first then say "Oops, I forgot I sided him in, guess I can't cast Lurrus now" that that is somehow less a violation. Both are violations. The companion ability starts at the beginning of the game, not when you decide to cast the creature.

    2) There is nothing to gain from cheating this. Other deck building restrictions are much more beneficial. Playing 5 Force of Wills will give you a noticeable advantage unless you're caught. But since you have to announce your companion on Turn 0, 100% of the cards you play are able to be checked against the companion. Showing up with Pokemon cards sleeved up is much risk/zero reward. So the whole exercise is moot. Why bother?
    1 is correct but 2 isn't. Think of it as high stakes chalice checking. :D
    Also none of these points are meant to confront you specifically, your comment about how having Obosh in your sideboard is a legal deck is technically accurate (the best kind) but betrays the deeper argument:
    Obosh in you sideboard with even costs in your deck is legal
    Obosh in you sideboard with even costs in your deck and you announce him on T0 is not
    The reason why I'm being technically correct is because people are asking and arguing about what penalty to asses when they do do the later. We agree it's wrong and something should happen but specifically what is a matter for identifying the exact violation comitted, and identifying exactly the penalty associated with it. The two scenarios you described describe the difference between a deck problem and a game rule violation. The deck problem has the potential to upgrade, where as the game rule violation does not. Also being technically correct matters because we know that doing it intentionally is cheating, which is punished by a DQ.
    So it matters because the outcomes are different.

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