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Thread: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

  1. #61

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by nimkee View Post
    2-0-1, the draw was to Lurrus Grixis Delver, that I had the win on board for but we went to time after a long, long grindy g2. I changed the list a little. – Daze, - Crop rotation. + V. Clique + Jace.

    1 Dack Fayden
    1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
    1 Bonecrusher Giant
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Elvish Reclaimer
    1 Gilded Goose
    1 Hexdrinker
    1 Noble Hierarch
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Tarmogoyf
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    1 V. Clique
    1 Young Pyromancer
    1 Chain Lightning
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    1 Abrade
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Counterspell
    1 Incinerate
    1 Fire // Ice
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Force of Will
    1 Intuition
    1 Lightning Bolt
    1 Punishing Fire
    1 Royal Scions
    1 JTMS
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Green Sun’s Zenith
    1 Thought Scour
    1 Vapor Snag
    1 Veil of Summer
    1 Sylvan Library

    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Wasteland
    1 Waterlogged Grove

    1 Lutri, the Spellchaser
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Blazing Volley
    1 Electrickery
    1 Cindervines
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Karakas
    1 Null Rod
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Return to Nature
    1 Submerge
    1 Surgical Extraction
    You have more ETBs than you have cheap spells worth copying. I really think you need to play into the suspend/cascade shell or I don't see what lutri offers over yorion..

  2. #62
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    You're handicapping yourself by playing cards like Incinerate. If you're paying 2 mana it should exile; otherwise Rift Bolt. There are also better cards than Cspell. Vapor Snag maindeck seems excessive unless you're playing in a paper meta with known Depths users. Also, where is Dreadhorde.

  3. #63

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    The games where Lutri is relevant involve the threat of him. He essentially makes most of my spells "uncounterable." Only half of the times I pro-actively cast him to copy something does he or the intended copy target resolve. He does occasionally just flash in as a 3/2 attacker to quicken the clock, though that isn't too common. Two of the matches I played were against delver anyways so flashing in Lutri for cheap targets isn't usually ideal when you are facing down daze and wastelands. I like that the deck doesn't 100% rely on Lutri.

    I'm likely going to try the cascade shell on Monday because there is a bit less combo in that meta than on Fridays, which seems more combo and delver. It does look interesting.

    I first wanted to start off with the base build that the guy did well with in the Challenge and then slowly switch things up. While lots of people seem to criticize his build, I don't see anyone else doing well with the lists they are proposing (or at least they aren't sharing). I didn't like a couple of the cards from the Challenge so I swapped them out. I really do like the cascade ideas and have the cards sleeved up and ready to test out next chance I get.

    Initially I felt the same way but I am slowly seeing that the deck relies more on the threat of Lutri to let all of your spells resolve, or when you are both low on resources and you get to do something a bit more broken with the guarantee of it resolving. Dack, Scions, and Mystic Sanctuary also help ensure that I get relevant Lutri targets. Also, you say that I have more ETBs than cheap spells. I count 6 ETB effects. I count 21 potentially spells to copy (2 mana or less, not counting loam).

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    You have more ETBs than you have cheap spells worth copying. I really think you need to play into the suspend/cascade shell or I don't see what lutri offers over yorion..

  4. #64

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You're handicapping yourself by playing cards like Incinerate. If you're paying 2 mana it should exile; otherwise Rift Bolt. There are also better cards than Cspell. Vapor Snag maindeck seems excessive unless you're playing in a paper meta with known Depths users. Also, where is Dreadhorde.
    Incincerate deals 3 damage. It killed two arcanist, a stormchaser mage, a faerie dragon with 2 counters, and a zirda last night. The 3 damage is relevant. People in the room told me it was bad all night, but what I needed was a red spell that deals 3 damage. Rift Bolt is horrible against Zirda, or Dorat. I agree its not a good card but it has put in a ton of work so far, and Rift Bolt would have lost me all of those games where incinerate was relevant (even dreadhorde would have gotten a trigger in).

    I agree there are better cards than Cspell. Mana Leak is better early game. I only cast Cspell once, and pitched it to a force twice. Its better in longer games and against decks that end up with lots of mana. With this particular manabase I think Cspell is playable, though if I were on a build without the "perfect delver mana" of 3 trops and volcs, I would change it out for something else.

    There are some depths / land users. Vapor Snag has been surprisingly relevant. I've hit flipped delvers, Zirda, chumped with Lutri and bounced him to buy back something more relevant the next turn, slowed down an arcanist for 2 turns with lutri and got in for a couple of swings that changed a close game. I've wasted two Oko activations by bouncing an elk. I only took Snag out for the UR delver match last night. The tempo has consistently been relevant. In what way do you think it's excessive?

  5. #65

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Just to clarify, I never said the list I'm playing is the best. I just took the one that did well and am giving it a try. A lot of your ideas (Fox / Reepl) are things that I also am considering / have considered. I have all of the cards that you suggested sleeved up and ready to go! These other seemingly suboptimal choices have turned out to be much better than I anticipated. I literally laughed when I sleeved up incinerate as I thought about how bad it was. Turns out it was crucial in many of my games as an expensive bolt.

    A couple of things like crop rotation and daze didn't seem as good so I swapped them out for the second tournament. Daze seems bad in such a mana hungry deck (and as a one of).

    For Monday I want to do more value stuff with cascade and arcanist / visions/ crashing, and also want to include at least a basic island / forest. Any suggestions on the manabase? There are some b2b and bloodmoons floating around the meta, and I would actually like to run moon in the board.

    What cards would you guys remove / add for the value train version?

  6. #66
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Magmatic Sinkhole is better than Incinerate and easier to copy with Lutri too.

    Dismember is better than Incinerate and easier to copy with Lutri too.

    Izzet Charm is probably better than Counterspell because being multi-modal is important in a singleton deck. It can counter spells, ping small creatures, or dig.

    Because the online meta is full of blue right now, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast is probably better than Counterspell. It's 1 mana and has useful alternate modes like "kill Insectile Aberration" and "destroy target Oko". REB handles Stormchaser Mage and Faerie Dragon.

    Stifle is also strong (land destruction, destroy target Storm player, target BR Reanimator loses 7 life but doesn't draw, stall planeswalkers, stop ETB value, stop Marit Lage, stop their Karakas from saving Lurrus, counter Yorion draw, mess up Zirda combo).

    I think "perfect Delver mana" is wrong for Lutri. Delver needs all Islands for Daze and its many blue cantrips. Delver doesn't mind getting Wasted because it's so efficient (cantrips, low cmcs). Your Lutri doesn't have Daze and is much mana hungrier. You want some basics and maybe 1 Taiga to have fetching versatility (though with 3 Grove the Taiga may be overkill).

    Arcanist + Footfalls + Vision seems important too.

  7. #67

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by nimkee View Post
    Initially I felt the same way but I am slowly seeing that the deck relies more on the threat of Lutri to let all of your spells resolve, or when you are both low on resources and you get to do something a bit more broken with the guarantee of it resolving. Dack, Scions, and Mystic Sanctuary also help ensure that I get relevant Lutri targets. Also, you say that I have more ETBs than cheap spells. I count 6 ETB effects. I count 21 potentially spells to copy (2 mana or less, not counting loam).
    Any pw with a minus ability is essentially an etb. Copying counterspells is often hard to make worthwhile.

  8. #68

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    I like your suggestions. Zirda is an issue I have had problems with every week so Magmatic would often end up being too slow but I think dismember is a good alternative. I dislike it a bit against delver, especially UR, but it might be better in the main. Against zirda the life loss is irrelevant. Being able to bolt (incinerate), lutri it, then snap "bolt" is such a huge life swing that I do like being able to use it as such to quickly close out games.

    You mentioned the exile part - pillar of flame is another card I have sleeved up that I was tempted to play. It has the upside of people not being able to buy stuff back with Lurrus (for the day left its legal).

    I started out like the original list with pyroblast in the main but it was too 50/50. I like izzet charm a LOT but also want to be able to counter creatures or just have the hard counter up at times. Not being able to get rid of x/3s is something I worry about - arcanist and zirda are something it seems like I am seeing in half my matches each tournament (2/3 actually so far). The last mode is actually really good with sanctuary. Charm is a card I definitely want to check out. I'm not particularly impressed with cspell so far, not that its bad..just definitely a card I would try something else in place of.

    Stifle is a great card. It doesn't combo with Lutri particularly well though. I do like it, though in my local meta its not necessarily the greatest at the moment. That will probably change post ban though.

    I was thinking of one basic island and forest, 2 trops, 3 volcs, 1 mystic sanctuary, 1 taiga, and 2 groves. One of either Waterlogged or Fiery Islet too. 4 misty / 2 tarns / 2 foothills for a fetch base, and then 2-3 wastelands. How does that sound for a manabase?

    I'm really looking forward to Footfalls and Visions on Monday. Hopefully I get to play them.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Magmatic Sinkhole is better than Incinerate and easier to copy with Lutri too.

    Dismember is better than Incinerate and easier to copy with Lutri too.

    Izzet Charm is probably better than Counterspell because being multi-modal is important in a singleton deck. It can counter spells, ping small creatures, or dig.

    Because the online meta is full of blue right now, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast is probably better than Counterspell. It's 1 mana and has useful alternate modes like "kill Insectile Aberration" and "destroy target Oko". REB handles Stormchaser Mage and Faerie Dragon.

    Stifle is also strong (land destruction, destroy target Storm player, target BR Reanimator loses 7 life but doesn't draw, stall planeswalkers, stop ETB value, stop Marit Lage, stop their Karakas from saving Lurrus, counter Yorion draw, mess up Zirda combo).

    I think "perfect Delver mana" is wrong for Lutri. Delver needs all Islands for Daze and its many blue cantrips. Delver doesn't mind getting Wasted because it's so efficient (cantrips, low cmcs). Your Lutri doesn't have Daze and is much mana hungrier. You want some basics and maybe 1 Taiga to have fetching versatility (though with 3 Grove the Taiga may be overkill).

    Arcanist + Footfalls + Vision seems important too.

  9. #69

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    With Yorion the walkers come into play at the end of turn and you don't get to activate them again until next turn. Its really not all that useful when half or more of the walkers don't use their minus abilities and their ultimates are useful.

    Even discounting the counterspells, which I wouldn't, there are still far more spells than etbs. As for counterspells Lutri is actually quite good with them, as some of them are free spells, the forces and possibly misdirection if you are running it, and with Veil you get to draw two cards. I play against blue at least half the time so its definitely something. Even if I am playing against Maverick or another green deck I can put Lutri on the stack and copy my counter to get their veil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Any pw with a minus ability is essentially an etb. Copying counterspells is often hard to make worthwhile.

  10. #70
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    So post-Lurrus, we're allowed to brew Grixis and Jeskai with Lutri, since there's no strictly-better cat nightmare lurking around to nullify our Otter fun.

    Here's what I have in Jeskai:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3032074#paper

    It's very value/midrange, as I still don't think we can effectively tempo without Daze and Delver.
    One of the principles here is to make every creature count, so even the 1-drops are must-kills (2 Moms, Lavaman, Bomat Courier; no Delver, no Swiftspear). We have enough removal to clear the way for Bomat and galaxy brains are always gonna know what he's hiding under there.

    I think the white splash is worth it for the 2 exile removals alone. But I also really like the 2 Moms for protecting fragile haymakers/engines like Arcanist, Spellbelly, Sprite Dragon, Mentor, Geist of ST and Rielle.

    SCM, Mission Briefing, Sevinne's Reclamation, Mystic Sanctuary to maximize access to our limited count of Tier 1 cards. Search for Azcanta as a poor man's Library and another way to get Ancestral Visions in the yard for Arcanist (along with 5 looting effects)

    Of One Mind: currently there are 7 Humans (3x 1cmc; 2x non-human token machines), 9 non-humans (2 of them Adventure guys). Robber of the Rich or Abbot of Keral Keep over Bonecrusher Giant could be options to improve the odds of assembling inter-species tag team.

    Unsure about some of the filler spells, this needs some testing and tinkering:
    Izzet Charm (nice for its flexibility) vs. Fire//Ice (Forking 2 Strixes seems enticing)
    Spell Pierce vs. Forked Bolt or Counterspell
    Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor vs. Magmatic Sinkhole or Dismember

    If combo gets strong I like that 3 Forces out of the sideboard idea.

    Overall, I can see RUG (mana dork into T2 design mistake) still being the better Lutri build, but I'm not about to buy any Trops at this point. And this seems pretty viable to me.

    EDIT: The Link now connects to my Grixis List. Oops.
    Last edited by Tobitzki; 05-19-2020 at 09:15 AM.

  11. #71
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    You really don’t want to play shame island (Sanctuary) with that manabase, it won’t end well. Reille is pretty suspect (I see the payoff, but it’s not exactly hard to deal with her), and Mentor is really dangerous maindeck life choice against Oko the Gathering. The creatures are a bit conflicted (protection ladies) and Bomat; it’s a lot of not killing your opponent in a deck with good amounts of burn kinda going to waste.

    None of your PWs can take over the game all that well, especially against Oko, but that’s a “why is Oko still legal” problem. The PW choices themselves seem fine otherwise. Given the discard’y stuff you’re doing you’d be much happier [???] with Escape-Elspeth over a Narset (I don’t see the benefit of 3 mana impulse into dies to Bolt/REB).

    I feel like you could clean up the manabase a lot by focusing away from white spells and moving to Tarns full of Vista and have 1 Plains, 1 Karakas, 1 Plateau, 1 Tundra (if you really feel like you need to go basics, which you probably don’t without spells).

    As overpowered as Sevinne’s is, there’s just no permanents as 1-card combo’y as Uro/Oko/Klothys at the 3 mana spot. Geist is close-ish, but he attacks into a Coatl, dies, and their Oko will still be at 1 or 2 loyalty and you’d have lost your big payoff you splashed white for. Trying to assemble Geist + protection lady is heavy on the magical chistmasland side. This is one of those points where you kinda ask yourself if you just play RUG Lutri with the new cycling tri-Fetch to get the second white source (after Karakas) so you can play the 1x Sevinne’s, and end up in a better place.

    In the spirit of all things playful and Otter’y and such, I’d do this in Jeskai:
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3035922

  12. #72
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You really don’t want to play shame island (Sanctuary) with that manabase, it won’t end well.
    Yea, on second thought, I like this mana base better (there's probably no need for Wasteland and MD Karakas in the post-Lurrus meta):
    4 Tarn | 4 Strand | 2 Vista
    3 Islands | 1 Plains | 1 Mountain
    2 Volcanic | 1 Tundra
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    Sanctuary is one of those little hedges we have available to offset our inbuilt Lutri variance. Narset plays a similar role: in the absence of the proper cantrip cartel the double Impulse to dig for what we need becomes that much more valuable. As for the Royal Scions, I think they very much take over the game if left unchecked (not incrementally, but tic tic tic boom like); and their stats are on par with Oko (loyalty 6 right away). The PW that should probably be included here is good old Jace.

    I like your idea of splashing for white just for Reclamation, though, since as I said, I generally agree that RUG looks more promising, what with ramping into 3cmc bombs and all.

    I'm also starting to think that Grixis may actually be better than Jeskai: discard plays better than countermagic with Lutri, Bomat, Arcanist, Spellbelly, JVP, and Bedlam Reveler. Bob, Strix, K Command, Painful Truths, Drown in the Loch, maybe Angrath's Rampage all seem great in terms of value and/or versatility. And Gurmag is the rare body that trumps Yorion. Ultimately, any of these versions seems playable and fun at the very least.

  13. #73

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Has anyone considered any of the Miracles with Sanctuary / Dack / Scions / Thought Scour / Bedlam / Search for Azcanta / Mission Briefing / Loam? Thunderous and Temporal could be pretty good.

    One of the things I've found helpful against oko (aside from a clean answer like reb or ad) is having creatures with flash like borrower, or something to vial in (not helpful in our build). Borrower or Clique plus a bolt does the job.

    I like the Grixis list, unearth / reanimate / entomb are pretty sweet. You could actually set up a turn where you eot entomb a Temporal and then miracle it, sanctuary it back and possibly Lutri it. You could take 2-3 extra turns, or 10-15 extra damage over 2 turns.

    When I've tried to proactively use Lutri to copy something it seems to backfire on me at least 50% of the time when playing against blue. Sometimes it would lead to such a huge blowout that I go for it and then..they just had it. "It" once was a 3rd force (seems like a 5-6 of in decks these days). Its much better when I have a free counter in hand, or a veil, or could at least see what they had in hand via discard.

  14. #74
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    This deck can have 1 Brainstorm, we're not the right deck to play miracle cards.

    Edit: you have to be really careful about being unable to see the forest for the trees. Stop looking for “cool” things to do, especially when it has multiple moving pieces and none of it really synergizes with Lutri himself. You’re burning win-the-game effects on Entomb for Mastery for shame island (Sanctuary) to set up what is effectively Explore. It’s important to step back from text on cards and clearly define what you’re doing is really called, in this case: 3 card Explore sequence that risks hands with shame island and inability to flush a 7 drop from hand.

    The Reanimation stuff is pretty questionable too, stick to Kcomm or Sevinne’s; otherwise you’re locking yourself into inflexible and simplistic lines of play. The only one worth considering would be Reanimate b/c there is this idea that you can use discard as Entomb for a target from opponent’s hand, and Dreadhorde can recast it. You’d be in Grixis though so maybe losing life in a singleton deck without a backup mechanism isn’t the best idea.

    Here’s how Entomb works: you play Uro (or some legacy-relevant recursive threat that Grixis probably doesn’t have printed yet, sorry Kroxa you’re bad), and Darkblast, and Cling to Dust. Note how Entomb is finding your value cards or the engine to enable their recursion - and this is all an instant with board impact (kill Ice-Fang, SCM, Thalia, anything by Infect, counter target Dreadhorde trigger, trade Uro into surprise 6/6 Grisel...and don’t worry, every time Uro attacks he can pull Darkblast to hand, see). Three desirable cards and an Entomb, all pretty reasonably able for Lutri to copy. The “cool” stuff has to have purpose.
    Last edited by Fox; 05-19-2020 at 01:31 PM.

  15. #75

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    To me Entomb does all those things plus the stuff I've already been doing with Intuition (Uro / Loam / p.fire / wasteland / drawland). I run enough walkers that setting up an extra turn (or two) to ultimate them could just win the game (scions and dack at least). I wouldn't entomb for mastery just to have something "fun" to do, I would use it if it enabled an attack with lethal burn in hand or something of that nature. It also synergizes with DA on board and suspend cards.

    I've played with Cling before (stryfo pile) and it can be a bit difficult to escape multiple times if you aren't running a cantrip heavy deck or a deck like snoko where everything immediately replaces itself.

    So far Sanctuary has been outstanding for me. It's won me multiple games (I've fetched back an incinerate twice!) and I only run a single one so starting with it in hand isn't such a big deal. Its helped a great deal with the consistency of the deck. Unearth is underrated. We have some good targets for it, can potentially be used with Lutri (though as I already mentioned I don't like using it proactively) and can cycle if nothing else.

    I know I already asked this, but is anybody else actually playing this deck? Hearing some other reports in the new meta would be nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    This deck can have 1 Brainstorm, we're not the right deck to play miracle cards.

    Edit: you have to be really careful about being unable to see the forest for the trees. Stop looking for “cool” things to do, especially when it has multiple moving pieces and none of it really synergizes with Lutri himself. You’re burning win-the-game effects on Entomb for Mastery for shame island (Sanctuary) to set up what is effectively Explore. It’s important to step back from text on cards and clearly define what you’re doing is really called, in this case: 3 card Explore sequence that risks hands with shame island and inability to flush a 7 drop from hand.

    The Reanimation stuff is pretty questionable too, stick to Kcomm or Sevinne’s; otherwise you’re locking yourself into inflexible and simplistic lines of play. The only one worth considering would be Reanimate b/c there is this idea that you can use discard as Entomb for a target from opponent’s hand, and Dreadhorde can recast it. You’d be in Grixis though so maybe losing life in a singleton deck without a backup mechanism isn’t the best idea.

    Here’s how Entomb works: you play Uro (or some legacy-relevant recursive threat that Grixis probably doesn’t have printed yet, sorry Kroxa you’re bad), and Darkblast, and Cling to Dust. Note how Entomb is finding your value cards or the engine to enable their recursion - and this is all an instant with board impact (kill Ice-Fang, SCM, Thalia, anything by Infect, counter target Dreadhorde trigger, trade Uro into surprise 6/6 Grisel...and don’t worry, every time Uro attacks he can pull Darkblast to hand, see). Three desirable cards and an Entomb, all pretty reasonably able for Lutri to copy. The “cool” stuff has to have purpose.

  16. #76
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    I don’t think you’re really understanding this. Entomb cost 1 mana, Cling costs 1 mana, Darkblast costs 1 mana - all of them can be reasonably expected to be copied by Lutri. Darkblast is not a textless card, and it not only un-cestral’s [mills] towards Cling and Uro, it is making escape fuel. You attack with an Uro and now you’ve got this card you can dredge back to hand off the draw trigger that says “eff your Coatl, take 6 buddy” - and if they untap an kill Uro, there’s a 100% chance your GY is gonna have 6 fuel + Uro in it by the time your main phase rolls around; so the Uro’s never stop here, and this is like the one thing BUG can do that RUG can’t.

    (I don’t think BUG is good enough even with the Cling to Dust/Uro/Darkblast/Entomb abuse engine, but it’s way more sound than whatever Grixis is doing - namely losing to Wasteland while having no must-counters for Lutri to protect/copy, all while nuking their own life total down to 0 with unplayable P-Truths and thinking shame island will make up for it, or that they can ever recur a Kroxa vs Wasteland)

    Loam is sorc speed, unable to really effect the board outside Wasteland recursion, it costs 2, it doesn’t offer to make 3 life for Sylvan to transmute into cards, and it fights with Uro for yard resources. You’re not really answering any problems in the format, which means you’re at the mercy of whatever your opponent is doing and hoping your uninteractive engine will be good enough. Loam/Intuition stuff is pretty heavily skewed towards this assumption that your mana is online and that you can take an entire turn off to cast Intuition, and another turn to untap and cast Loam, and then make it to your next turn to deploy that Uro - it’s a little on the winmore side, except you’re also giving opponent time (drawsteps) to interfere. Intuition’s backup plan once Uro goes to exile is find P-Fire and never have a reason to Loam again which seems a little anemic compared to Entomb finding mid to late-game yard-interactive draw engine (which removal spells can’t touch).

    Just contrast the differences there: Intuition stuff does this one aggressive thing, Entomb stuff does whatever it needs to because it can react in multiple different ways with value redundancy and threat of board interaction. StryfoPile is not where you want to look for relevant corollaries; we’re looking to see if we can construct a deck to proactively establish the mana (through anticipated resistance) such that we *potentially* harvest easy wins off Delver decks and still have all the silly value firepower down the stretch for the Uro/Oko/Coatl/Yorion derping.

    As a rough draft (which I don’t think stacks up against what RUG’s red offers maindeck): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3037619#online

    If you would like to see Grixis Lutri in action watch Legacy_Council’s twitch VoD today. It showcases a lot of good stuff about Grixis, but also exposes the deep flaws that color set can never overcome.

  17. #77
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    @nimkee: I'm only homebrewing at this point; not gonna get a chance to play this out until June, unfortunately. But I agree with you: we absolutely need to lean into Mystic Sanctuary. The graveyard is our path around too much singleton-variance.

    Entomb: Mystical Tutor with live Sanctuary. Ox of Agonas (not Kroxa!). Shenanigans (SB). Cabal Therapy (SB). Tutor spells for Arcanist (e.g. Visions), Snap, JVP, Mission Briefing, Kess (latest addition; in Jeskai this could be the new Apex of Thunder). Tutor creatures for Reanimate, Unearth, K Command (maybe Dead//Gone). These are more than enough redundant synergies to make Entomb one of our strongest tools. 9 other looting or surveil effects enhance this GY toolboxing. In general, we can build this deck in a way that squeezes either max. value or flexibility out of each card.

    @Fox: yea, that 4C version doesn't look great; if you'd stop thinking about Uro for a second I think you'd see that a Grixis list (with basics and Sanctuaries, plus 3 red blasts vs. Uro if you must) is much more coherent. If life total really turns out to be an issue, Tragic Lesson or Of One Mind are possible alternatives to PT.

    Cling to Dust: another potential Entomb target, but I'm concerned about keeping the GY filled, too.

    Darkblast: I had considered this, but it's super meta dependent and right now is not the time (not much DnT, Elves, Infect, or Bobs around). Generally speaking, I'd rather run Forked Bolt.

    Force of Vigor: Not a maindeckable card ever.

    Will definitely check out Ark4n's VoD, thanks for the heads-up.

  18. #78

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    I do understand, we just don't seem to agree on everything.

    Intuition has been great for me in any non-combo match, which is most of what I face locally. I also like playing on my opponent's turn, which Intuition lets me do. More than say do one and not the other, I would consider doing both. If the meta moves away from Delver then I would lean towards 4c with no white for ad / at / leo / entomb, and very likely cling.

    I'll avoid the "you don't understand" statements and just point out that Loam has repeatedly won me games against Delver decks, and helped me pull out wins against elves as well as maverick. Its not always the waste-lock; sometimes getting back a wasted grove for p.fire, pulling fetches for mystic, or recurring a draw land while making fuel for Uro fall into your category of "not affecting the board". Its a synergistic package that gives me flexibility. Entomb can add some redundancy in this case by fetching up these parts when intuition is not available.

    Darkblast doesn't do much in my meta, other than occasionally kill a coatl. Using it assuming I have a boardstate of Uro attacking into a Griselbrand seems...pretty corner case. I don't play online so combo isn't as much of a thing. Your meta might be a lot different than mine though. If my meta was characterized by DnT and Infect, sure, I'd sleeve up Darkblast. While it does get an unflipped delver, its not exactly great against the rest of the deck. Using it to stop an arcanist trigger is the only thing it does that P.fire wont' for me.

    I made the comparison with stryfo pile because it plays the same cards but has many more cantrips and 3 dack to help fill the yard. In the RUG version that I've had decent success with locally and in testing, escaping Uro more than a couple of times can be difficult, though that may change in the new meta (people aren't recurring spellbombs / crypts anymore, though scooze is still around).

    Thanks for the link, and also for taking the time to write up some feedback on these ideas. The initial list I tested wasn't mine, and only after playing it did I start to appreciate some of the choices that may not seem "right" to people. Its a new meta now though so I'm excited to brew, test, and will continue sharing my results.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I don’t think you’re really understanding this. Entomb cost 1 mana, Cling costs 1 mana, Darkblast costs 1 mana - all of them can be reasonably expected to be copied by Lutri. Darkblast is not a textless card, and it not only un-cestral’s [mills] towards Cling and Uro, it is making escape fuel. You attack with an Uro and now you’ve got this card you can dredge back to hand off the draw trigger that says “eff your Coatl, take 6 buddy” - and if they untap an kill Uro, there’s a 100% chance your GY is gonna have 6 fuel + Uro in it by the time your main phase rolls around; so the Uro’s never stop here, and this is like the one thing BUG can do that RUG can’t.

    (I don’t think BUG is good enough even with the Cling to Dust/Uro/Darkblast/Entomb abuse engine, but it’s way more sound than whatever Grixis is doing - namely losing to Wasteland while having no must-counters for Lutri to protect/copy, all while nuking their own life total down to 0 with unplayable P-Truths and thinking shame island will make up for it, or that they can ever recur a Kroxa vs Wasteland)

    Loam is sorc speed, unable to really effect the board outside Wasteland recursion, it costs 2, it doesn’t offer to make 3 life for Sylvan to transmute into cards, and it fights with Uro for yard resources. You’re not really answering any problems in the format, which means you’re at the mercy of whatever your opponent is doing and hoping your uninteractive engine will be good enough. Loam/Intuition stuff is pretty heavily skewed towards this assumption that your mana is online and that you can take an entire turn off to cast Intuition, and another turn to untap and cast Loam, and then make it to your next turn to deploy that Uro - it’s a little on the winmore side, except you’re also giving opponent time (drawsteps) to interfere. Intuition’s backup plan once Uro goes to exile is find P-Fire and never have a reason to Loam again which seems a little anemic compared to Entomb finding mid to late-game yard-interactive draw engine (which removal spells can’t touch).

    Just contrast the differences there: Intuition stuff does this one aggressive thing, Entomb stuff does whatever it needs to because it can react in multiple different ways with value redundancy and threat of board interaction. StryfoPile is not where you want to look for relevant corollaries; we’re looking to see if we can construct a deck to proactively establish the mana (through anticipated resistance) such that we *potentially* harvest easy wins off Delver decks and still have all the silly value firepower down the stretch for the Uro/Oko/Coatl/Yorion derping.

    As a rough draft (which I don’t think stacks up against what RUG’s red offers maindeck): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3037619#online

    If you would like to see Grixis Lutri in action watch Legacy_Council’s twitch VoD today. It showcases a lot of good stuff about Grixis, but also exposes the deep flaws that color set can never overcome.

  19. #79
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    @nimkee
    The Otter theme is silly, but we’re trying to get to a serious list here. You were throwing out some real jank with this Entomb for Temporal Mastery for Sanctuary stuff, and then you had followed up with Temporal Mastery being justified by PWs, but also you are using this for lethal via extra turn stuff. You’re also doing the Intuition stuff, which is a personal preference (i.e. it’s fine), but there is an underlying theme where you skew towards isolating Lutri from contributing in a midgame and having this amorphous/wandering tempo intervals (the Intuition stuff).

    It’s great if this Sanctuary/Incinerate/Intuition-Loam stuff is working for you, but it’s important to not take the Intuition stuff (anti-Lutri) and try to apply it to optimal use of Entomb (pro-Lutri) <- these hypotheticals are where the concerns about not understanding come from. Intuition is one of those cards that is generally being cast when ahead (so it’s going to seem better than it is b/c it’s easier to win from a state where you’re ahead), but with Entomb stuff you really need to be precise about accomplishing a set of goals (because you’re using this to shape how you’ll get ahead) - and this starts as early as turn 1. Intuition presents a puzzle, whereas [non-Grisel] Entomb prospectively pokes the biggest hole it can in an opponent’s defenses (and if found later will be used to end the game as a tutor targeting 1-card value combo).

    Whatever value package you go for (whether Intuition or Entomb stuff), the cards all need to work together. There’s no real sequence to disrupt when you have an Entomb/Darkblast*/Uro/Cling, they all bounce around and adapt, and Lutri “sees” each of these decision points at a much higher frequency (and quicker pace) with the option to intervene. If your Entomb stuff is for Sanctuary/Temporal Mastery jank, Lutri can’t “see” anything - that means you’re dropping win % at the point of deck construction. You play Entomb with the Otter, you need him to be able to jump off the bench and help out. Right now I think you’re in this honeymoon period with Intuition where opponent’s don’t realize that exiling Uro from yard would be singularly devastating, and expose your deck as one where Lutri will struggle to pull the game back in your favor by himself. This is a key weakness, and you seem to have overlooked it thinking it’s business as usual where Entomb can be played loosely. If they exile that Uro somehow, your big mana Intuition play probably isn’t giving you a great way back into the game.

    *remember that this deck has creatures with >1 toughness, Darkblast self is not purposeless (in the case that opponent has nothing to hit).


    @Tobitzki it’s more that Uro is doing the same thing as the other 3cmc payoffs (Klothys and Oko), they are all pointed at extending the game via lifegain. They do all kinds of other things, including just winning the game outright b/c they’re 1-card combos, but for me it’s about that redundant overlap [i.e. consistency in singleton shell]. You need to be able to trust that your cards, regardless of name in the upper left, are doing what the deck sets out to accomplish. I consider this list a success if it turns games against Delver into bye rounds, and that’s why I value the Uro and RUG shell.

    Grixis Lutri just gets rolled by Wasteland +/- Daze tempo attacks, and then they really struggle to ever outpace Bolt down the stretch. Grixis need mana assurances, and failing that it needs its turns/life back (i.e. it needs to negate attacks). This is the trap with Grixis: if they run to kill spells they start auto-losing to Tundra, and god forbid they try to fight opponent’s Uro with destroy effects. This set of priorities leads to Grixis’ classic self coup-de-grace where they play shame island to help vs 4c value pile and in so doing shoot themselves in the foot vs Delver. It’s a vicious spiral, and I don’t see the way out for them.

    On Darkblast, I value its backup goldfish applications. On FoV, I’m going to need to see convincing evidence that the meta isn’t playing hard into quad-Naturalize, especially with this Yorion nonsense. I think it’s got enough game against Delver [RUG Lutri that is] to absorb 1 FoV in game 1. I’m also okay with it’s random upside like vindicate target Chancellor triggers on turn 0 to clear the way for FoW/FoN. It comes down to your meta, but I think FoV is more likely to win a game maindeck than something like Misdirection**. The choice for me is even easier if people are going to play sloppy legacy and tap down 5 mana at sorcery speed for a Yorion and walk into up to 4 missed draws and loss of all color fixing (and that’s when they’re not blowing themselves out with Yorion’s EoT Stifle-bait). Again it’s about that consistency of effect I want from singleton (in this case brutalizing Yorion); meta-decks are sitting ducks, and if there’s one thing Otters like more than swimming it’s playing Duck Hunt.

    **now if we’re talking Grixis which notably can’t play creatures that don’t get rolled by Dreadhorde flashing back Bolt, and has no 4/4 rhinos, then turning a Bolt back on the enemy Arcanist will become a higher priority effect.

  20. #80
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    @Fox: Just watched Ark4n: what a fun deck this is, can't wait to sleeve it up. But the stream reconfirmed that I'd rather play 5 basics (3|1|1) than have access to a single Hymn (i.e. my Grixis doesn't die to WL; I could even stick a B2B and a Blood Moon in the board). It also confirmed my suspicion that running all of Gurmag, Sinkhole and Murderous Cut overtaxes our GY (I like Ethereal Forager, Lavamancer and Murderous Cut here; not removing Uro and Oko kills Sinkhole for me atm).

    You're right about Grixis' greatest weakness being lack of exile removal. My hope is that we can get away with 3 Blasts and 4+ ways of flashing them back vs Snoko. But the life loss issue you mention is incidental rather than structural; it can be easily adjusted (e.g. I'm on the fence about Bob and Bitterblossom rn; also see my comment about Painful Truths below). RUG, however, has its own problems removing x/4+ creatures beyond that single Oko. I think Push, Cut, Drown, etc. go a long way towards dealing with anything not named Uro.

    And we don't agree on Force of Vigor and Darkblast and that's fine. I prefer cards like Angrath's Rampage, Dreadbore or maybe Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor here: for 2 mana they don't fuck around. I also put Portent and Mental Note back in for more consistency and Lutri and flashback payoffs. Here's my updated list:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3032074#paper

    PS: I do hope your original RUG list gets donated so we can see it in action.

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