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Thread: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

  1. #81
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Cling to Dust probably needs to be in your maindeck, I donít think you want to have Entomb in deck and not have answer to Uro, Sevinneís, Snapcaster, and Dreadhorde.

  2. #82

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    I tested a half dozen more matches with RUG, the last 4 of which were using two basics (island and forest) main. These actually helped quite a bit and didn't seem to hurt the mana base as much as I thought it might. I switched the waterlogged out for an islet, and dropped wasteland #3 for mystic sanctuary as I expect the meta to move back towards snoko and more basics. I'm up to 20 lands with this build. I might cut a grove, but otherwise it feels quite good. I probably would not play sanctuary if there were another single non-island land in this deck. The forest and 2-3 groves is as far I'd be willing to push it.

    Its tricky to test lutri builds because of all the singletons. That being said, here are some notes on various card choices.

    I hit ancestral quite a few games and surprise surprise drawing three is really good. The deck (this version at least) always seems to have something to do with its mana so it never felt like I was waiting for visions to go off. I never got to cast footfalls so can't say how good it really is. I definitely like AV. Footfalls might go for something more high impact / flexibility.

    I cast dreadhord a couple times but it immediately got removed (AD twice, two different decks). It sort of made me want to test Jace like in the grixis list in the stream Fox mentioned. In particular I like that any instant / sorcery gets the flashback, not just cmc 1.

    Vapor snag put in some decent work tonight by helping me race and getting some tempo in. I tried a Bloodbraid Elf too that I cast a total of 3 times. I hit a tarmo once but the other times were counter magic and a gsz. It is nice that BE has haste and can swing into an oko. It will likely be cut.

    Adding the 3rd mana dork is another improvement I recommend. I went from hierarch and goose to adding a 3rd in the bird. Goose has occasionally kept me in games with food but also can feel bad at times. Overall its been a positive but there are times I wish it were a bird. Hierarch not making red has been an issue at times. Gsz being able to fetch a dork has been great. Hexdrinker with mana open and scooze have also been good gsz targets.

    The temporal started in my opening hand one game, a one lander that I mulliganed. I never saw it again, despite having scions and dack dig (or having 15 cards left in my deck at one point). If I decide to run Temporal again it would have to be with a misdirection build (a 3rd force to pitch it to if it gets stranded in hand) and some more natural looting. I'm shocked I never saw it between the looting and dredging.

    Intuition has continued to be good for me. It won me a couple of matches on its own, through loam / waste and uro. The 4th time I escaped Uro I think I only had 15 or so cards left in my deck. Uro is seriously broken and I have ended up relying on it a lot. Being able to get it with gsz or Intuition adds a lot of consistency (as I'm sure entomb would). Royal Scions continues to do well. I killed someone with the ultimate again.

    The green cards continue to get me win after win - sylvan library, uro, and loam (and to a less extent the mana dorks, hexdrinker, and scooze) have won me several games.

    @Fox when I mentioned planeswalkers with entomb / temporal it was not really that I was building around it, but that if it ended up in hand I would have some ways of ditching it. Its floor (as you mentioned, explore), as opposed to its ceiling, is probably lower than what we want to make the best Lutri deck (which seems odd to say when talking about a singleton deck).

    Fox I saw your comments in chat. I was thinking some of the same things, you pointed out a lot of good plays that would have stopped him from losing some games. Please let us know if he ends up streaming your deck.

    For anyone interested you can test your brews with the beta version of xmage, and also have the AI pilot a deck. It seems to competently pilot Delver and Snoko, but not so much (read: at all) with other decks that have broader decision trees (toolbox decks for example). For those of you who are cooped up because of quarantine or what-not hopefully that helps.

    If anyone wants to test it on MTGO I have Esper Vial, though my timezone is probably pretty different from most of yours (currently 11:30pm at the time of this post).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Cling to Dust probably needs to be in your maindeck, I donít think you want to have Entomb in deck and not have answer to Uro, Sevinneís, Snapcaster, and Dreadhorde.

  3. #83

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Fox, could you post the list that Ark4n piloted on stream today?

    It was definitely a fun list to watch in action. I thought it was mostly the deck you suggested accept for a few cards, but I came in late to the stream so didn't catch that part in the beginning.

  4. #84
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    If youíve watched all his Lutri matches I think itís hard to defend Kroxa more than any other card. The trigger just doesnít matter (doesnít ever convert a game into a win), and it rewards opponents for playing any mana denial. Granted the card isnít always drawn, but Kroxa feels like itís playable (i.e. getting escaped) at a rate around 1 in 15-20 games. Itís a trap card, and I donít understand the Stockholme syndrome Ark4n has going for it b/c itís clearly holding him back.

    The new VoD (from yesterday) is pretty good at pointing a finger at Mystic Sanctuary as an especially suspect card for Grixis. Maybe there was a game where the only reason he won b/c he could recur a spell? I think in a color set with such profound mana issues, that itís really hard to defend shame island over basic Island or Badlands. Iím also not loving the end-of-league assessment of going up to 21 lands to continue to justify shame island; the deck still has a Delver in it and the colorset is still light on spells to recur that play nicely with Lutri - and thatís kind of to expected with black (so like Hymn for example, by the time you could buy it back and threaten Lutri with it, the opponent wonít have 4 cards).

    Serum Visions is not good. A theme that runs through his games is ďI canít get my mana set upĒ + Serum Visions and Thought Scour/Mental Note does not equal getting your mana up. I donít know that you can fix this with grixis colors, but itís a structural cantrip weakness that needs to be taken more seriously when deciding keep or mull.

    The only other card thatís not pulling its weight Gurmag. Not that he canít cast it, but it antagonizes yard resources for Mag. Sinkhole and Cut. Itís a high price to pay for a card that has a poor matchup vs Oko/Uro/Coatl. Itís so bad in the meta right now that I think youíd have a hard time saying this card is better than Tasigur [i.e. youíre not likely to run into enemy Gurmag and need a 5th point of power], especially if youíre going up to 2 Karakas (legendary supertype cannot be removed by Oko).

    So those are the cards I think hold the deck back, though I think itís really more just a Grixis colors problem. Iíll write up more on the league later.

    edit: Grixis still has the life loss issues, but I think you get more keepable hands (Fetch + Noxious >>> Fetch + shame island), redundancy of desired effects (works with Lutri to copy), and potential turn 0 interaction of Noxious Revival than shame island. The deck also isnít that far off from wanting the option to Entomb for Dakmor (when it isnít tutoring itís best card, Cling to Dust).
    The other card that needs to go is Narset, almost forgot about this one. This card is a huge waste of a payoff slot, and consistently rots in hand b/c singleton deck canít defend nor create a boardstate for 1UU sorc speed Impulse. Also the whole point of Lutri is to see *if* it can do all the ridiculous stuff while still consistently beating Delver; and Narset is the worst card for the job, sheís overpriced and dies to Bolt, Delver attack, and REB...and with the life issue of Grixis, the opponent also has the option of ignoring her and going for life total.

  5. #85

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Good comments!

    I feel the same way about Kroxa but didn't want to say anything as its harder on a streamer to deal with negativity and play optimally at the same time. I was hoping to just see it in action, but with all the cards that "cantrip" in decks these days it just doesn't seem great.

    Karakas seemed too cute at first but definitely pulled its weight with Lutri (which we conveniently start each and every game with). I like that it buys back Jace too if he gets hit by removal. Then there is the V.clique draw control.

    Its interesting to see a larger sample size with sanctuary. It has been fantastic for me but I'll be damned if Ark4n didn't get it at a bad time at least once a match. Its odd because that only happened to me once in maybe 12 matches now. For him though yikes...and my mana-bases have been worse for it than his (groves and wastelands). I was curious about the 21 lands bit myself. I run 19-20 with 2-3 wasteland, but also run 3 mana dorks which the RUG version *really* makes good use of.

    I was curious about serum, and only run the thought scour myself because of loam / p.fire / uro / intuition (there are some other corner cases its useful, but just that, corner cases). I don't like Mental Note. How do you feel about Opt?

    Delver and daze were both cards I cut awhile back and haven't missed. What do you like about the one of daze? I guess it at least pitches to a force late game. I really dislike that it sets back are mana, especially in a version with out accelerants.

    I thought Gurmag was questionable but put it on my test list regardless. It looks bad against Uro and Oko on top of using gy resources. With a resurgence of RUG delver Gurmy might be better positioned. I like Narset in the board at least for snoko decks. I see so many coatls/birds, labes, and uro in my meta that she pulls her weight. In the online meta though I'm not so sure. With more blasts floating around she definitely loses value.

    I'm more in favor of Lutri builds that don't tap out much and play on opponent's turns. That's one of the reasons I was drawn to the UR version when I initially saw Lutri, despite its weaknesses. There's a certain tension from tap out threats like the walkers or uro that are necessary evils. Fortunately in RUG the mana dorks help with this. Also of note with RUG, with the 4 maindeck life gain sources I feel like I'm starting the game at 25-26 life per game minimum. Sometimes I end up going up 15-20 life...its ridiculous, and difficult to overcome for many decks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If youíve watched all his Lutri matches I think itís hard to defend Kroxa more than any other card. The trigger just doesnít matter (doesnít ever convert a game into a win), and it rewards opponents for playing any mana denial. Granted the card isnít always drawn, but Kroxa feels like itís playable (i.e. getting escaped) at a rate around 1 in 15-20 games. Itís a trap card, and I donít understand the Stockholme syndrome Ark4n has going for it b/c itís clearly holding him back.

    The new VoD (from yesterday) is pretty good at pointing a finger at Mystic Sanctuary as an especially suspect card for Grixis. Maybe there was a game where the only reason he won b/c he could recur a spell? I think in a color set with such profound mana issues, that itís really hard to defend shame island over basic Island or Badlands. Iím also not loving the end-of-league assessment of going up to 21 lands to continue to justify shame island; the deck still has a Delver in it and the colorset is still light on spells to recur that play nicely with Lutri - and thatís kind of to expected with black (so like Hymn for example, by the time you could buy it back and threaten Lutri with it, the opponent wonít have 4 cards).

    Serum Visions is not good. A theme that runs through his games is ďI canít get my mana set upĒ + Serum Visions and Thought Scour/Mental Note does not equal getting your mana up. I donít know that you can fix this with grixis colors, but itís a structural cantrip weakness that needs to be taken more seriously when deciding keep or mull.

    The only other card thatís not pulling its weight Gurmag. Not that he canít cast it, but it antagonizes yard resources for Mag. Sinkhole and Cut. Itís a high price to pay for a card that has a poor matchup vs Oko/Uro/Coatl. Itís so bad in the meta right now that I think youíd have a hard time saying this card is better than Tasigur [i.e. youíre not likely to run into enemy Gurmag and need a 5th point of power], especially if youíre going up to 2 Karakas (legendary supertype cannot be removed by Oko).

    So those are the cards I think hold the deck back, though I think itís really more just a Grixis colors problem. Iíll write up more on the league later.

    edit: Grixis still has the life loss issues, but I think you get more keepable hands (Fetch + Noxious >>> Fetch + shame island), redundancy of desired effects (works with Lutri to copy), and potential turn 0 interaction of Noxious Revival than shame island. The deck also isnít that far off from wanting the option to Entomb for Dakmor (when it isnít tutoring itís best card, Cling to Dust).
    The other card that needs to go is Narset, almost forgot about this one. This card is a huge waste of a payoff slot, and consistently rots in hand b/c singleton deck canít defend nor create a boardstate for 1UU sorc speed Impulse. Also the whole point of Lutri is to see *if* it can do all the ridiculous stuff while still consistently beating Delver; and Narset is the worst card for the job, sheís overpriced and dies to Bolt, Delver attack, and REB...and with the life issue of Grixis, the opponent also has the option of ignoring her and going for life total.

  6. #86
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    I like that singleton Daze is a card no opponent can ever respect, and it they do itís to our benefit. In corner cases you can save a land from Wasteland (or reset a Sanctuary if thatís what youíre doing), and thereís a lack of other counters which would be more effective.

    Mental Note, Thought Scour, and Serum Visions as fairly poor cantrips compared to Opt, as the objective is finding lands. If the spell canít do that it at least needs to provide info (Peek). Before any of those three Iíd probably be looking at Adventurous Impulse, Oath of Nissa, or possibly Grapple with the Past.

  7. #87
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    quick takes:

    Daze: 100% agree there, @Fox; I also put Pierce back in after seeing how Lutri turns it live even late in the game. I agree with @Nimkee: What I think needs to go of the remaining tempo cards is Delver. Too bad a topdeck and opening with one just isn't a reliable game plan. Maindeck Plague Engineer instead.

    Gurmag: Yea, I never liked the Fish here. We have better things to do with our graveyard (see above: M Cut & Ethereal Forager in; Sinkhole, Gurmag out)

    Cling to Dust: OK, included. Entombing for it asks for a looot of resources, though. That's a mid- late-game line for Snoko, it won't save you vs. GY Combo

    Cantrips: Thought Scour & Mental Note are only justifed when leaning into the GY as a resource, which is the correct way for Grixis to hedge against Singleton sickness: I'm running Entomb, Reanimate, Unearth, K Command, Lavaman, SCM, JVP, Mission Briefing, Arcanist, Spellbelly, Kess, and Mystic Sanctuary (incl. blue fetches for MS, that's 15 ways of accessing spells + 3 for creatures). Search for Azcanta, in any case, is better than any of the 3rd rate 1cmc cantrips (of which Opt is the least egregious, yes). I'd be careful with those green manafinders though, @Fox: isn't the whole point of cantrips that they're not dead topdecks later on?

    Mystic Sanctuary: @Fox you can't be serious suggesting Noxious Revival (card disadvantage) and then some jank-box comes-into-play-tapped black land in the same breath as dismissing Sanctuary?

    re: Ark4n's stream: you're totally right, @Nimkee, not always useful to shout at the streamer from the sideline. When I tuned in late for his last Lutri league (with basic lands), he was obviously struggling with fatigue and focus and the suboptimal plays kept piling up. In that context it's extremely encouraging that the deck was still able to hang with the mighty Snow pile. And I super appreciate him putting Lutri on the map like that.

    But if you build the mana base--and then actually fetch--correctly, I really don't see a good reason to walk into Delver and Moon Stompy with zero basics. Just keep your Hymn in the sideboard.
    4 Tarn | 4 Delta | 2 Vista | 3 Islands | 1 Mountain | 1 Swamp | 2 Volc | 2 USea | 1 Sanctuary (plus 1 Karakas I guess)
    = 17x U (not counting MS) 13x R / B. And we can talk about turning 1 Vista into a Badlands.

    My Jeskai list, meanwhile, has turned into a pretty aggressive tempo deck with 9 Prowess(ish) beaters, One of Mind (10/18 humans) and a low curve topping out with Mentor, Geist, Royal Scions and Bedlam.

  8. #88
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    There are different dominant problems for Grixis than exist for Lutri with green - namely that the mana is reliably horrible. Look at all those games played and bad mana is the primary driver of avoidable losses; itís more consistently a problem than not drawing the effect you want in a singleton deck. Mystic Sanctuary is a significant contributor to this problem, and does not recoup lost win % in lategames by necroíing a spell (when this happens, the game is usually already out of reach for opponent).

    Dakmor could only be played in the context of Entomb, and only in a deck with mana security issues (Grixis). Itís not good, but itís probably the safest play Grixis can make. Same with Noxious Revival, early game interaction/mana security/Regrowth effect you can copy down the line. I wouldnít even attempt Grixis in the first place, but if Iíd have to Iíd feel way better about it doing either of these tools than shame island...Iíd even take just a basic Island over it.

    Now does Entomb work in Grixis (and by extension Dakmor)? Eh, not really. There is no payoff for them to Entomb (Uro), but yes it really is that important that they find Cling to Dust. The problem is that itís more important to find Cling (lifegain) as your mana (and life total) is collapsing so putting in the yard leads to problems (costs 4 now). This is again the Grixis problem, whereas RUG and BUG can consistently draw their lifegain payoff cards since theyíre a 3-4 of (Uro, Oko, Klothys or Cling +/- Entomb). Without this clear plan you start turning Bolt into a live topdeck for Delver opponents, and thatís a primary mechanism by which you to start losing the matchup.

    What you need to be more worried about than green cantrips that can find lands, dudes, or sometimes a PW [these arenít land-only cantrips] - particularly when building like Ark4n (he has a BUG VoD) does without GSZ + 2 mana dudes. You canít go around dying to mana screw aided by Sanctuary and non-finders (Mental Note, Scour, Serum Visions) and pretend everything is fine and the deck doesnít need to be fixed. Move away from Delver in RUG and youíre moving into Snapcaster, so again get your lands when you need them and your dudes when you donít.

    On the delve-whale, Iíd take Lutri double-dinks with Sinkhole over it. I donít think the card is real, and itís not a position Iíd re-examine until Oko is banned. Lots of tension between it and Uro + Cling or Dreadhorde (safer ways to turn yard into value).

  9. #89

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    I went 2-1 again tonight, beat Yorion snoko, lost to 4c snoko no-red, and then beat Yorion snoko again.

    I went with the more value oriented list. Visions was mostly good, though late one game I just drew 3 lands off it so it didn't matter. Footfalls was pretty mediocre. Opponent did spend some removal getting rid of the 4/4s. One ate a force of will, and then I lutri'd it, who also ate a fow. The card disadvantage was real but I still lost that game to repeated Uro + Oko and a sylvan library to boot. I did get an awkward hand with Sanctuary tonight, but it worked out in the end. My opponent ended up casting abundant growth on his own sanctuary after leading with it g2. I got to waste it and it felt AMAZING.

    This Jeskai Lutri list 5-0'd. I don't want to spoil the surprise, but he packed the deck with miracles, including Temporal Mastery, and is running 2 sanctuaries. After I give the strictly worse UR version a try this Friday I'll probably give Jeskai a try for a couple weeks. The odd part about this 5-0 list is that there is no Dack or Royal Scions or Charm to ditch miracles that get stranded in hand. I feel like I might consider running Narset Transcendent over Teferi but who knows. 5cmc is a lot for a walker in legacy. Narset of the Ancient way would be funny to do with one of the miracles, she doesn't really seem that strong though.

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...20-05-23#fgc_-

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