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Thread: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

  1. #21
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    His blowouts came from dodging Wasteland and post-board yard hate. There was also a notable disconnect between Lutri and coming together with the blowout cards of Grixis. Kcomm is fine for buying back a key creauture (even though 6 mana is too much for Fork), but Lurrus is a little better mana security companion in a deck trying to use Kroxa (costs BR to spam). Beyond the mana issues, there‘s no value is Forking a card like Hymn as they simply won‘t have 4 cards in hand by turn 5 - you‘re just diluting draws away from cards Lutri can use (so just be on Lurrus).

    I think the important thing about the league is seeing how Lutri can exploit maindeck hate/prison w/ keep or mull decisions while other decks are telling you what they‘re doing. The durdle crew (Snake and Cat) looked pretty easy to consistently put on the back foot with correct singleton effect-type density. I don‘t think the take home lesson was to go bigger/harder on the Grixis Control with a companion that was already struggling to contribute, even when the mana was unopposed. That said, Lurrus decks become fairly underwhelming when they try to play control without any PWs...I just don‘t think Lutri can really help Grixis get PWs to levels of mana needed by abandoning responsible early games with singletons.

    @kombatkiwi Loam and Intuition assume a game is going well and that you‘re ahead. They‘re rather tempo-negative as an individual topdeck. You also always have access to Lutri, so you kind of have to ask why you‘re abandoning the tool at hand in a ~3+ mana gamestate. Proper construction should preclude the need to find specific singletons ~ if you have the desired effects in correct amounts, you don‘t need to undermine your opener. That‘s why we don‘t see cards like Intuition played to any success in Delver decks. The Lutri league showed that not going big enough on mana-intensive value isn‘t the issue. The hardest matchup was Wasteland at the end; the opening turns was the concerning piece.

    Edit: go back and watch the Grixis Cat matchup and watch that player double-Daze themselves back to the stone age; you can‘t be giving them breaks b/c the card you‘re casting isn‘t worth Daze over getting Lurrus online.

  2. #22
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Did any of his blowouts come from playing tempo? No.
    Did any of his misplays come from playing for tempo? Yes.

    He got Wasted, just not in the games he won with Kroxa. Rebuilding with more stable mana and a higher land count helps.

    I said RUG midrange fit Lutri better than Grixis. Not sure what you're arguing against. But for a Grixis build, control worked and just needs more support for the control plan, which includes patching the mana weakness.

    You don't need to Fork Hymn. 2-3cc cards shouldn't be there as Fork targets (too expensive). They can be Forked sometimes, but their main role should be to supplement the game plan (card advantage and disruption). KComm is great but should be used to recur Lutri more often than get Forked by it. The main Fork targets should be the 0-1cc cards. Mindstab was a bad choice because its main role is being a Lutri target but no one will have 4+ cards in hand when it resolves. Hymn is good on its own.

    RUG can apply the same principles. 2-3 cc card advantage that can't be forked is still good. They just tend to be permanent-based in those colors: Oko, Uro, Dreadhorde, Snapcaster, Library, Coatl. Green has a big edge offering Footfalls where black just has Mindstab. Both RUG and Grixis should run Visions (which is not obvious if you look at it like a tempo deck instead of a control deck).

    As for the lack of gravehate, the old Grixis Control often had the same benefit. Some players saw FoW and Brainstorm and boarded against it like a fair blue deck, not bringing in enough gravehate, even though their card advantage engines (KComm, Snap, Liliana) were GY-based. I think the same thing happened with him. Players will board wrong against random piles.

    He didn't get much value from Lutri itself, showing that Grixis Control in general might be good in this meta. Companions like Lurrus, Zirda, Lutri, Gyruda mean seeing fewer Okos and Uros, which also means fewer Veils. Even the Wasteland decks aren't playing 4 Wasteland anymore. The only Companion deck playing Veil and Oko is the 4/5, and their copies are diluted over 80 cards. Overall there's less stuff that punishes Grixis Control. Meanwhile redundant creature removal is ideal because everyone has Commanders ready to deploy.

    Edit: Yeah, I remember that questionable double Daze. He did get lucky from some opponent misplays. That game was hilarious. My Twitch stream glitched on that turn and skipped ahead a minute... The board state went from him double-Wasted vs an opponent with 2 lands and a threat, to an opponent with 0 creatures and 0 lands while he had 2 lands and drew Wasteland! I had to go back to see how he got so far ahead in so little time.
    Last edited by FTW; 04-25-2020 at 11:26 PM.

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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    The matchup can be viewed on Anzid's VoD. The game and match was lost to a sizeable punt concerning P-Fire and forgetting about Lutri. The list went hard on milling self and Uro, and left Lutri without any must-counter spells to protect or duplicate. Still, nice to see people taking Lutri out for a spin and doing well with it; someone has to get those 2012 RUG Delver pilots spooked that maybe an Otter is a serious contender for best RUG deck.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    You're paying an incredibly high price in a number of ways. Win percentage is taking a hit over just playing Lurrus. Dreadhorde Arcanist sees Footfalls and Ancestral in yard. Wilt is not FoV, so no combo with Lutri.

    Counterspell is borderline unplayable by itself, and definitely can't be played before Drown. Are you sure you meant Consuming Vapors?

    You're adding hypervariance [of strategy] 2card Monty stuff while going down on kill spells, and almost none of it is aided by the presence of Lutri. You're also losing 3x REB effects. I feel like you don't need to resolve a Tainted Pact to make a Marit Lage to win a game of legacy.

  7. #27
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    So...crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, and tainted pact right now seem like the most broken things to otter to me...wondering if BUG could work.:
    The moment you play black (or even white) you play Lurrus companion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  8. #28

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    The moment you play black (or even white) you play Lurrus companion.
    I'm figuring Lurrus goes very soon so not building with him.

    @fox: I forgot drowned, thx. I very rarely run blue. Red might be just better this is more out of curiosity, similarly I just think wilt is quite good. Lots of things in red seem good with Luttri but nothing seems "broken". Yes, imagine consuming vapors rebound plus Luttri .
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  9. #29
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    @fox: I forgot drowned, thx. I very rarely run blue. Red might be just better this is more out of curiosity, similarly I just think wilt is quite good. Lots of things in red seem good with Luttri but nothing seems "broken". Yes, imagine consuming vapors rebound plus Luttri .
    I mean that’s a 4 mana play over 2 turns; if you wanted something like that I think you go harder on self-mill and have 1x Dead Drop. Also you can be Wastelanded down to 1 land and still cast this. I just don’t like cards that you bring to a game 1 that require your opponents to play creatures that matter. I like kill spells like Vapors and Maelstrom Pulse even less if I have to get to 3-4 mana to make the spell playable against an opponent who is probably on Lurrus/Wasteland/Daze.

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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    RUG LULtri 26th place on Saturday:
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...arini_th_place

    This list went harder on control:
    -no Delver or aggro 1 drops
    -Snapcaster Mage
    -Counterspell
    -20 lands
    -Loam engine
    -planeswalkers

    No badtrips like Opt or Serum Visions.

    I was surprised to see 0 GSZ. Looks like a mistake. Even if they're metagaming around Cage for Lurrus, GSZ is still too good.

  11. #31
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    No badtrips like Opt or Serum Visions.
    I don’t think Thought Scour gets a pass on being called better than Opt, and neither is better than Peek telling you when you can go all-in on Lutri. They upshifted mana costs and added a cantrip that’s worse at finding lands. There was also this other little problem where Lutri had no must-counters to copy.

  12. #32
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Ancestral Vision and Crashing Footfalls should both be there. They're just too strong with Lutri, even if not copied.

    Peek is better than any of the badtrips due to the information, as we saw in Ark4n's games. But I see the situational value of Thought Scour because of graveyard-dependant cards like Uro, Loam, and Punishing Fire.

    They upshifted costs slightly but also increased the land count and added land recursion.

    There are some cute Intuition packages like:
    -Loam, PFire, Grove
    -3 removal
    -3 counters
    -Uro, Loam, Waterlogged Grove

  13. #33
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Ancestral Vision and Crashing Footfalls should both be there. They're just too strong with Lutri, even if not copied.
    It’s worth a separate post here to reiterate what you have said, and to make sure when people see the list from the challenge that YP should be immediately removed for Dreadhorde Arcanist - he can flash those two payoff cards back. Also with all the self-milling that deck was doing, it was still incorrect to play YP over Dreadhorde (even without Footfalls/Ancestral).

    Generally speaking, YP is a card that should be heavily scrutinized any time it shows up in a list, as its relevance continues to spiral towards fringe playable. Grixis Delver is the last bastion of hope for YP, and this is a Daze deck playing Karakas and Badlands...recurring Bauble and Seal of Fire...neither of which make token triggers...in a format where the most played PW can steal your army in a can.

  14. #34

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    I've been trying to think of other things "broken" with luttri, is mindstab good enough? Right now crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, crop rot, and tainted pact (cuz singleton not luttri) seem like the best things. Considering things like eldritch evolution too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  15. #35
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    I've been trying to think of other things "broken" with luttri, is mindstab good enough? Right now crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, crop rot, and tainted pact (cuz singleton not luttri) seem like the best things. Considering things like eldritch evolution too.
    if you're playing an aggro deck, i can see a case for fury of the horde. at least it's still in red. ideally you can give this guy haste so you get an extra 6 damage. ancestral vision and fireblast also seem very strong as mentioned.

    t1 bear. t2 bear + burn? (attack for 2-4?) t3 attack for 4 + 7 + 7 (assuming you can find a way to make it have haste)
    -rob

  16. #36
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Fury of the Horde and Fireblast are too much of a liability, as they sit in hand until late-game. Every payoff burn spell is just less powerful than Footfalls. You don't want to play aggro with UR singleton vs Goyf, there's no worse color combination for it. You beat Goyf head to head with Goyf, Uro, Mag. Sinkhole. Then out-grinding them with Lutri/Oko/Klothys/suspend payoffs, all backed up by Karakas.

    Fury of the Horde should probably only be played in mono-red Rabblemaster prison.
    --
    On Mindstab, there's no point in copying with Lutri, and Dreadhorde can't see it. This card is a liability, and it puts you on should-be-Lurrus colors

  17. #37

    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    The moment you play black (or even white) you play Lurrus companion.
    I don't think that we should eschew black only because of Lurrus. He won't stay for long anyway.

    Here's my BUG version Lutri:


    1 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Muddle the Mixture
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Veil of Summer
    1 Drown in the Loch

    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Assassin's Trophy
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Murderous Cut

    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    1 Portent
    1 Tainted Pact
    1 Wishclaw Talisman
    1 Ancestral Vision
    1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
    1 Narset, Parter of Veils
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Arcum's Astrolabe
    1 Once Upon a Time
    1 Green Sun's Zenith
    1 Aluren

    1 Shardless Agent
    1 Noble Hierarch
    1 Gilded Goose
    1 Birds of Paradise
    1 Elvish Reclaimer
    1 Baleful Strix
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Ice-Fang Coatl
    1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Cavern Harpy
    1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    21 Lands:
    1 Karakas
    1 Shelldock Isle
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Snow-Covered Forest
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest
    1 Bayou
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Prismatic Vista
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Windswept Heath
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Wasteland

    SB:
    1 Lutri, the Spellchaser
    1 Plague Engineer
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Null Rod
    1 Duress
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Krosan Grip
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Sower of Temptation
    1 Force of Vigor
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Unmoored Ego


    Cards to consider:
    LED, Hymn to Tourach, Rite of Undoing, Watcher for Tomorrow, Eternal Witness

    The deck is built around Lutri, Aluren and Tainted Pact.

  18. #38
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    I've been trying to think of other things "broken" with luttri, is mindstab good enough? Right now crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, crop rot, and tainted pact (cuz singleton not luttri) seem like the best things. Considering things like eldritch evolution too.
    3cc cards like Evolution are too slow for Lutri targets. It could happen in rare grindy games, but shouldn't be the main role of the card. Lutri targets should be 0-1 cc.

    Mindstab is bad, as Fox said. Suspending advertises what you're doing so they will play out their hand. It's unlikely they'll have 3 cards when it resolves, and definitely not 6. Ancestral and Footfalls are better because their value isn't conditional on the opponent's state.

    Magmatic Sinkhole and Murderous Cut are good 1cc cards. Snuff Out costs 0 mana. Submerge in the SB can cost 0. These are examples of ways you can cheat value and copy effects that should be costed at higher mana, without suiciding yourself like Fireblast or Fury of the Horde.

  19. #39
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Quote Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum View Post
    The deck is built around Lutri, Aluren and Tainted Pact.
    What do you loop with Cavern Harpy to win? I don't see any payoffs other than card draw (Strix/Uro) and Lutri.

    If your payoff is Lutri, you can go off with just Tainted Pact (copy to find both Aluren and Cavern Harpy). But then you exile much of your deck and may not have many tools left to abuse with Lutri. Do you have a way to just win the game on the spot once you have Aluren? Meanwhile Aluren and Harpy seem like bad draws outside the combo, and copying Tainted Pact could find any other 2-card combo instead.

    Have you tested it? That seems inconsistent in a singleton deck without more tutor effects. Think how many tutors get run in Commander combo decks. Do you want more tutors? Lim-Dul's Vault? Splash for Recruiter?

  20. #40
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    Re: Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser

    Your deck is adding a substantial amount of variance. It’s helpful to provide a breakdown of what the deck actually is when it’s singleton. So the Pact/Aluren list is:

    -21 land - why are these singletons? Tainted Pact ain‘t good enough to justify this
    -7 cantrips, including Astrolabe. Lutri does not require singleton lands, and you’re not playing enough snow to turn on Ice-Fang (you’re even playing non-snow basics x3), so there are profound structural flaws. Astrolabe is probably fine by itself off 3x snow land, but you’re never playing Ice-Fang over Field of the Dead if you‘re splitting basics snow/non-snow..
    -7 counterspells (only assigning half a card value to Muddle and Therapy)
    -4 removals
    -4 anti-Lutri reliable 1-card combo payoffs (Sylvan, Oko, Uro, Pact)
    -1 generically good card: GSZ
    -13 creatures, most of which cannot contribute to combat effectively (you‘re dying to Goyf right now)
    -9 high-jank (6 are accounted for above, this category accounts for last 3 slots in the 60): Aluren, Narset, BoP, Wishclaw, Shardless, Harpy, Ice-Fang, Shelldock Isle, Arbor (if RUG Delver can‘t open a game with Arbor pass, neither can you - especially when you‘re playing all 1x land for some reason). There‘s just way to much ramp here, and then you want to tap-out for a 2/2 that has a pretty high chance of ripping over a GSZ/mana dude/cantrip/Muddle/Fluster - what is Shardless doing in this deck?? Why are we trying to assemble Aluren + Shardless + Harpy in a singleton pile - can’t Tainted Pact just draw your whole deck for 2 mana with just 1 card?? Why is a 21 land deck with 3 mana dorks needing to Shelldock a card it can just cast?? Note that all that land you‘ve got has 12x lands that can‘t go to the graveyard - this devastates your chances of riding Uro to victory.

    Your deck lacks payoffs for Lutri to proactively copy or protect...you have Ancestral and not even Footfalls. You say Lurrus will be banned which tells you there is a 100% chance the format will be full of targets for FoV (Yorion has Astro/Abundant Growth, every Fox deck has an overabundance of mana rocks) - and this spell is free, which means you‘re passing on Lutri quad-Disenchants.

    Just because the requirement is singleton, doesn‘t mean you have to play 2card super-monty.

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