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Thread: Obosh B'gosh

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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    That Modern-ported Mono Red Prowess deck works well with Obosh in Legacy thanks to Rite of Flame:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3011635#paper

    Losing Bedlam Reveler and Fireblast (but nothing else!) hurts, but this deck would squeeze a lot of extra damage out of a resolved Obosh.

  3. #43

    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    That Modern-ported Mono Red Prowess deck works well with Obosh in Legacy thanks to Rite of Flame:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3011635#paper

    Losing Bedlam Reveler and Fireblast (but nothing else!) hurts, but this deck would squeeze a lot of extra damage out of a resolved Obosh.
    I think I am going to play that list tomorrow. Although I have some questions :)

    1. What are you using the gamble for ?
    2. Is 'Crash Through' really worth it, how about skewer the critics ?
    3. With Faithless looting we are trying to cycle through our rite of flames to push out obosh ?

    Thanks

  4. #44
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Quote Originally Posted by ToasTer86 View Post
    I think I am going to play that list tomorrow. Although I have some questions :)
    Nice! Let us know how it's performing for you.

    1.: Gamble: I view this card as a kind of precision Faithless Looting: Our flashback spells (Looting, Dart) are useful either in hand or graveyard; or you can get an extra Rite of Flame; mostly I look at it as Ox#2 that doesn't rot in hand. Otherwise it's a risky tutor for sideboard cards. (In the non-Obosh version you could get Shenanigans)

    There's a mistake in the linked list, though: If you run Ox, you should play fetchlands. I wasn't really sure which top-end threat to choose as a Bedlam Reveler replacement. I now think the safer choice may well be a couple of Seasoned Pyromancers over Ox and Gamble. Another option would be another Bonecrusher Giant or MD Sulfuric Vortexes, especially if you expect a lot of Snoko.

    2.: Yes, I think you can ask any Modern Prowess player: Crash Through is the real deal in this deck. I actually like it more than Lootings, which are a card-negative.

    3.: Cards we don't mind Looting away: Darts, Rites, more Lootings, excess lands. tbh in this build without Bedlams it's a close call: If you opt against running Ox, I can see replacing the Lootings with Gut Shots, more Seals or even Skewer the Critics.

    Good luck!

    EDIT: Correction: No Baubles with Obosh of course.

  5. #45
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Why stick to monored in Legacy? UR Prowess looks better

    Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain are better than Faithless Looting (without Delve or Reveler... Ox is slow), Crash Through and Light Up the Stage. Modern doesn't play those cards only because they don't have them.



    //Creatures: 12
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Soul-Scar Mage

    //Spells: 29
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    3 Lava Dart
    2 Force of Negation

    //Lands: 19
    3 Ancient Tomb
    1 Fiery Islet
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Mountain

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Obosh, The Preypiercer
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 By Force
    1 Meltdown
    2 Brazen Borrower
    2 Rampaging Ferocidon
    1 Back to Basics


    Edit: Cut Spell Pierce for Lava Dart for more aggro

    You could play 4 Rite of Flame, but it doesn't seem like it gives much value. 1 Rite is only +1 mana (still need 4 lands), and 2 Rites is still not enough for Obosh. In comparison, Dark Ritual is +2 mana and 2 Rituals is enough for Obosh. Ancient Tomb is also +2 mana.
    Last edited by FTW; 05-21-2020 at 11:28 AM.

  6. #46
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Why stick to monored in Legacy?
    Because UR Delver doesn't kill on T3. It's just a different deck. Now I'm not gonna argue that Mono Red is a "better" deck than Delver overall, but fwiw I don't think your list leverages (or even seems able to cast) Obosh very well. In the red list, Obosh takes the place of Bedlam, which means we're aiming to play it T3-5 with 1-2 Rites. It'll get countered a lot, but that means that opps are sandbagging Force of Will and might die in the meantime, plus the Rites still trigger prowess.

    If I were to splash blue, I would just include 4-8 cantrips and possibly Daze and that's it. Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm in the side. Light Up the Stage is arguably better than all the blue cantrips in this particular shell.

  7. #47
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    Because UR Delver doesn't kill on T3. It's just a different deck. Now I'm not gonna argue that Mono Red is a "better" deck than Delver overall, but fwiw I don't think your list leverages (or even seems able to cast) Obosh very well. In the red list, Obosh takes the place of Bedlam, which means we're aiming to play it T3-5 with 1-2 Rites.
    With 1 Rite you can only play it on 4 lands, which means no turn 3 kill. To have Obosh faster you need 2x Rite. Rite is weak ramp. I don't see how it's any more consistent than Ancient Tomb, which also casts Obosh off 4 lands and can be used for other cards.

    0 Wasteland + 0 Daze + 3 Tombs means bigger mana than UR Delver usually gets. Also, UR Delver can kill on turn 3 without Obosh. It's rare, but not much less magical Christmasland-y than double Rite into Obosh with Prowess attackers and no disruption (removal, counters, blockers).

    Obosh can't just replace Bedlam. They serve different roles and require different acceleration. Bedlam can be cast off 2 lands without a ramp spell. It needs less ramp than Obosh. Looting ramps out Reveler but doesn't help Obosh, so Looting is just card disadvantage for you. Bedlam makes up card disadvantage from the Prowess list, Rite makes it worse.

    Spell Pierce and FoN could be Lava Dart instead, for more burn and Prowess. But the blue cantrips are just better than the red cantrips. And FoW/FoN are important to police unfair combo and turn 1 Chalice of the Void, things that don't exist in Modern but will just shut you out.

    Once you're in blue, not playing Delver seems like a mistake. It's the best aggressive creature in the format.

    If you want to ramp out a faster Obosh, use Dark Ritual.
    Edit: because Dark Ritual > Rite of Flame and Brainstorm > all other card draw, UB Shadow is probably a better shell for Obosh than either UR Delver or MonoR Prowess. There's already good discussion in the UB Shadow thread.

    If I were to splash blue, I would just include 4-8 cantrips and possibly Daze and that's it. Light Up the Stage is arguably better than all the blue cantrips in this particular shell.
    You can't play Daze with Obosh. (even cmc)

    Light Up the Stage is not better than Brainstorm. Even Ponder is better. Ponder can be cast precombat for Prowess, while Stage needs damage first (wasted burn or postcombat). Stage sets up cards for Prowess next turn, but so does real card draw.

  8. #48

    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    I must say I am looking forward to testing both lists .
    The mono-red and the UR.

    As an old passionate burn player (3 years back) and pre-WAR UR player both lists look really solid.

    I like the red-list because it has inevitably. You will grab enough burn and kill your opponent over a long game. It should go fast as well. Although it can't protect it self (well) vs degenerate combo (hogaak, reanimator, ANT, TES.).

    The UR list ops for a more carefully approach. Backing it up with some counters to protect against combo/removal. Also using cantrips to fix bad draws. Although no daze and wastelands, so there is no tempo game here.

    My prediction:
    Mono red will good games against delvers, win from control/snowco. lose from combo.
    UR will have good games vs delvers and combo, lose from control/snowco

    Today I will stick with the red version. Will update it with some fetchlands, changed the seal of fire to risk factors.
    You really think seasoned pyromancer is better then the ox ?
    Take out the gamble and ox , 2 pyromancers in ?

  9. #49
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    With 1 Rite you can only play it on 4 lands, which means no turn 3 kill. To have Obosh faster you need 2x Rite. Rite is weak ramp. I don't see how it's any more consistent than Ancient Tomb, which also casts Obosh off 4 lands and can be used for other cards.
    As Toaster notes, these are just different decks. I love UR Delver; it's my primary legacy deck and I can respect a more aggressive prowess build. (just not convinced that a Daze/Brainstorm deck needs a 5cmc companion) And I've been part of the Shadobosh conversation and would probably agree that I see slightly more potential there. Not sure what exactly to do with the lack of Tempo in the absence of Daze: splash G for Oko? Run a couple of Porcellain Legionaires as a T2 play?

    But as for Red Prowess: T3 kills usually happen before Bedlam or, in this case, Obosh come down. They tend to involve 3 1cmc creatures + 3 spells or 2 early creatures + 4 or more spells, and are not all that rare. (this part of the deck is a well-oiled machine, where Soul-Scar Mage is superior than Delver and, yes, Light Up stronger than blue cantrips: we have 8 Bolts, Gut Shots, Darts and Seals to trigger spectacle.) We don't need a super fast Obosh and I'm not planning on sandbagging the first Rite for that. In a deck this explosive, Petal mode to triple-spell on T2 is a-ok with me.

    So Obosh is rehearsing for Bedlam's role as the second line of attack if the 1st didn't quite get there. And a hedge against mana flooding. Instead of 3 new cards we get the double-damage clause, enhancing our topdecks and whatever we have on board already; and it/s/he doesn't clunk up our starting hands. I don't know yet that this is on par with or better than Bedlam, but let's not keep underestimating the power of companion, shall we? Where I think you're correct is that Looting will probably have to go.

    And yes, this deck is extremely soft to Chalice. The closest we've had to a stock list for such a fringe/budget archetype ran 2 Abrades in the main, and unfortunately I'm not aware of any maindeckable odd-cmc artifact removal spells. For now we'll have to make do with 4-5 SB pieces.

    @ToasTer86: Yes at this point I would try Pyromancer (It's either Ox with fetches and Lootings or Pyromancer without)

    Here's my updated list:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3011635#paper

    Look around the internet for resources on Modern Red Prowess game play. There are quite a few intricacies about sequencing etc. to max out damage. Deck plays different from traditional Burn. As for combo matchups: Prowess may be able to race ANT and Hogaak and conceivably battle Show & Tell with Red Blasts. TES and Reanimator not so much (other than perhaps Claim the Firstborn a Griselbrand...)

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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    True they are different decks. Mono R Prowess is just a bad deck in Legacy, and Obosh with Rite of Flame ramp isn't enough to save it. That's why I move towards blue.

    UR Prowess/Delver can also goldfish on turn 3 (especially cutting Pierce for Lava Dart):

    3 creatures + 3 bolts / 3 creatures + 2 burn + 1 cantrip
    Turn 1 - Delver
    Turn 2 - Blind Delver Flip. 2 Prowess creatures (3 damage)
    Turn 3 - 3x Bolt. Attack with 3/2, 4/5 and 4/5 (20 more damage)
    That's overkill. You could also have 2 Bolt + 1 cantrip, or 1 Bolt + 1 cantrip + 1 Lava Dart.

    2 creatures + Brainstorm + 3 bolts
    Turn 1 - Delver
    Turn 2 - Upkeep Brainstorm, Delver flip. Swiftspear. (4 damage)
    Turn 3 - 3x Bolt. Attack with 3/2 and 4/5 (16 damage)

    2 creatures + 2 cantrips + 2 burn
    Turn 1 - Soul-Scar (1 damage)
    Turn 2 - Swiftspear. Cantrip. Attack with 2/3 and 2/3 (4 damage)
    Turn 3 - Cantrip. Bolt. Lava Dart. Attack with 5/6 and 5/6 (15 damage)
    Also works with 2x Bolt

    You don't need to chain bad spells together. 8 Bolts (Chain Lightning) already speeds up your clock. Brainstorm and Ponder help set up these explosive turns with higher consistency than red cantrips can.

    Why Delver of Secrets? It's one of the best Red aggro creatures. With Obosh you can't play 2 cmc cards like Kiln Fiend, Sprite Dragon and Runaway Steamkin (Steamkin is one of the main reasons the Modern deck has to stay mono R). You only have so many Prowess 1-drops. Delver is more aggressive than any other creature you could play. It speeds up your clock. It's also a great standalone threat to hedge for when you get disrupted.

    Cards like Crash Through are weaker without the high-payoff attackers like Kiln Fiend and Steamkin.

    I get how the Modern Mono Red Prowess deck works. But Obosh cuts out some key pieces, and this isn't Modern either. Legacy is a faster, more interactive format with:
    Force of Will
    Daze
    Flusterstorm
    Swords to Plowshares
    Terminus
    Punishing Fire
    Chalice of the Void
    Oko, Thief of Crowns
    Deafening Silence
    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    Ice-Fang Coatl....

    Any disruption stalls your first onslaught. Force doesn't just beat combo. It stops removal after you dumped your hand into a big Prowess attack. It stops Chalice and Thalia from prison decks. With 0 protection, you will get disrupted. Then because of the card disadvantage and worse card selection, you'll end up behind on cards and threats, which will make it hard to rally a second wave against a fair deck.

    Please do test Mono Red. Maybe it will be strong. I predict it will have bad matchups against even Delver and Snowko because it's threat-light, has no protection, and runs card disadvantage with poor card selection. It's more like a glass cannon combo deck than a fair aggro deck. Fair blue decks prey on those! They'll focus resources on your creatures and you'll just run out of gas. Mono R Prowess is a higher-variance version of Burn, without Price of Progress and Fireblast and Eidolon, more dependent on chaining multiple spells and the combat step.

    If you're not going off turn 1 like Oops All Spells and Gyruda, you can't afford to be a Glass Cannon in Legacy. Slow decks using the combat step need disruption, protection and interaction. Turn 3 is blistering fast in Modern, but it's not in Legacy.

    Meanwhile there's so little drawback to playing blue. Brainstorm, Ponder and Delver are better than their red equivalents anyway. Adding the better blue cantrips and some protection should improve your fair matchups.

  11. #51
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    I've been fooling around with Obosh a fair bit and some items of note:

    1) If you can play FOW you should, if you can play full Xerox shell you should. Obosh lets you play the 1 CMC and 5 CMC spells. You can't go Stompy with Chalice since zero is even so seems natural to shift towards blue.
    2) Obosh is good when you can threaten it turn 3 AND have a turn 3 attack already planned out. So a turn 2 OKO or other big threat and/or a turn 1/2 Delver/Death's Shadow/Etc. . . but that also means you need to be able to cast Obosh turn 3, so +1 mana accel is often not enough OR you need around 12 +1 accels (including Sol lands) to just threaten Obosh.
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I've been fooling around with Obosh a fair bit and some items of note:
    2) Obosh is good when you can threaten it turn 3 AND have a turn 3 attack already planned out. So a turn 2 OKO or other big threat and/or a turn 1/2 Delver/Death's Shadow/Etc. . . but that also means you need to be able to cast Obosh turn 3, so +1 mana accel is often not enough OR you need around 12 +1 accels (including Sol lands) to just threaten Obosh.
    This is a very good point. Neither Ancient Tomb nor Rite of Flame is enough to consistently threaten Obosh.

    JosefK/MartinMedMitten's list with both Tomb and Spirit Guide looks better.

    Otherwise 4x Dark Ritual seems like a good place to be.

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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    The reason I'm personally focusing on Death's Shadow, is that as I said Obosh is good if (1) you can threaten him on Turn 3 at least AND (2) you have an active threat on the board. Going big like Pioneer is an option - that option essentially requires landing a mana dork turn 1, following up with a 3 CMC threat turn 2, and then acceling and threatening Obosh turn 3. However, this makes the deck too reliant on the mana dorks. I makes more sense to just lay down deadly 1 CMC threats and then threatening Obosh starting turn 3. Just Delver is not enough of a 1 CMC threat - the only other one on its level is the Shadow.
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  14. #54
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    What about the combo between Nivmagus Elemental and Flusterstorm? Is that enough to have a threatening Obosh attack?

    Ground Rift is also an option but jankier, while Flusterstorm actually has text.
    Last edited by FTW; 05-21-2020 at 08:22 PM.

  15. #55

    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    As Toaster notes, these are just different decks. I love UR Delver; it's my primary legacy deck and I can respect a more aggressive prowess build. (just not convinced that a Daze/Brainstorm deck needs a 5cmc companion) And I've been part of the Shadobosh conversation and would probably agree that I see slightly more potential there. Not sure what exactly to do with the lack of Tempo in the absence of Daze: splash G for Oko? Run a couple of Porcellain Legionaires as a T2 play?

    But as for Red Prowess: T3 kills usually happen before Bedlam or, in this case, Obosh come down. They tend to involve 3 1cmc creatures + 3 spells or 2 early creatures + 4 or more spells, and are not all that rare. (this part of the deck is a well-oiled machine, where Soul-Scar Mage is superior than Delver and, yes, Light Up stronger than blue cantrips: we have 8 Bolts, Gut Shots, Darts and Seals to trigger spectacle.) We don't need a super fast Obosh and I'm not planning on sandbagging the first Rite for that. In a deck this explosive, Petal mode to triple-spell on T2 is a-ok with me.

    So Obosh is rehearsing for Bedlam's role as the second line of attack if the 1st didn't quite get there. And a hedge against mana flooding. Instead of 3 new cards we get the double-damage clause, enhancing our topdecks and whatever we have on board already; and it/s/he doesn't clunk up our starting hands. I don't know yet that this is on par with or better than Bedlam, but let's not keep underestimating the power of companion, shall we? Where I think you're correct is that Looting will probably have to go.

    And yes, this deck is extremely soft to Chalice. The closest we've had to a stock list for such a fringe/budget archetype ran 2 Abrades in the main, and unfortunately I'm not aware of any maindeckable odd-cmc artifact removal spells. For now we'll have to make do with 4-5 SB pieces.

    @ToasTer86: Yes at this point I would try Pyromancer (It's either Ox with fetches and Lootings or Pyromancer without)

    Here's my updated list:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3011635#paper

    Look around the internet for resources on Modern Red Prowess game play. There are quite a few intricacies about sequencing etc. to max out damage. Deck plays different from traditional Burn. As for combo matchups: Prowess may be able to race ANT and Hogaak and conceivably battle Show & Tell with Red Blasts. TES and Reanimator not so much (other than perhaps Claim the Firstborn a Griselbrand...)
    Just played 4 very fun matches with that deck. I switched the Seal of fires for 3 risk factors.

    Decks I played against :
    Snowco
    UR delver
    Bomberman
    Death shadow.


    Will post some more match results and insights tomorrow .
    Against UR delver , gut shot was MVP. Blowing up Delver & YP,
    Paying the Phyrexian mana and having mana open for daze en spell pierce.

    The risk factors were MVP vs Snowco

    More tomorriw.

  16. #56
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    Here is a Eldrazi Obosh list from DJ IZMA, the genius that is 5-0ing Keruga Stompy lists in legacy. https://twitter.com/djizma_mtg/statu...508096/photo/1
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  17. #57
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    Re: Obosh B'gosh

    @Toaster: Looking forward to hearing your report! Yes, Gutshot lines up really well vs. Delver. (I've been on the receiving end of this myself before as the Delver player)


    @Cire: Not my jam, but that Eldrazi deck looks pretty sweet.

    @FTW: You're slightly misrepresenting Modern Prowess: Steamkin and Kiln Fiend were never part of the core creature suite (i.e. 8x prowess 1cc + 3-4 Bedlam) and remained flex/controversial. And with Blistercoil Weird we do have access to more 1cc prowess beaters than we actually need. Crash Through is obviously bonkers with Kiln Fiend, but it does its thing alright just with the regular Prowess guys. But so you're still arguing the equivalent of telling a Burn pilot to run UR Delver instead, since "[Burn] is not a good deck in Legacy." Well, let's hear Toaster's report about that. It's true, meanwhile, that Red Prowess is like Burn with higher variance. So no, I'm not arguing that this is better than blue xerox, but it's a viable pure aggro deck rather than tempo. If we insist on merging that aggro approach with a blue xerox shell, here's decent starting point from last year by Kyfly (the Jund Phoenix guy):

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23878&d=366129&f=LE (i.e. 14 1-drops: Delver, Swifty, Ptera, SSM; today we might wanna run Chain L over V Snag)

    Another close cousin would be the UR Phoenix lists. We can disagree on Delver, but it's close I think. I also understand not wanting to leave the house without my Forces, but I hate to see dead cards in aggro. In my updated list w/o Ox, I was missing the 3rd cantrip (Manamorphose in Modern; Looting in Legacy, which might not be worth the card disadvantage here sans more GY payoffs.) and so the first blue card I'd consider splashing for is indeed Brainstorm. (I know a veteran Burn player who's been splashing nothing but BS and some SB Flusterstorms for years and been doing pretty well with it.) The main issue I have with UR in this context is that I don't see the mana ramp/Obosh thing fitting in all too well, while cutting 2 lands and adding 4 Rites in a dedicated Prowess build at least turns mana into +1/+1 triggers at a pretty minimal cost.

    My main dilemma is still what to do with that 3rd higher-cmc threat slot: Seasoned Pyro? Ox? Guttersnipe? Risk Factor? Vortex? How about splashing white for Mentor?

    EDIT: to @Cire's point: I agree that I'd rather not rely on mana dorks (terrible topdecks), but I do love the idea of splashing green for Klothys (Snow killer) and Domri, Anarch of Bolas: that card is ramp and counter-protection for Big Bosh in one.
    Last edited by Tobitzki; 05-22-2020 at 03:49 AM.

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