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Thread: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

  1. #21

    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    If I were to summarize, I'd say Legacy players are mostly ok with a solved format, we just want that format to have as many options as possible.
    I got into legacy because the deep card pool meant I could brew new strategies or resurrect old ones. If legacy was solved I would be stuck running against the "pillars of the format" and never put up results, which on occasion I managed to do.

  2. #22
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    I got into legacy because the deep card pool meant I could brew new strategies or resurrect old ones. If legacy was solved I would be stuck running against the "pillars of the format" and never put up results, which on occasion I managed to do.
    Ahem,

    Sure it changes on occasion, but ideally over a long progression of time that means more decks are becoming viable to adapt rather than fewer.
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  3. #23
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    I just stumbled over the suggestion of "Pre-Innistrad Legacy" a couple of days ago. This means the latest legal sets are New Phyrexia and M12. The ban-list obviously includes Mental Misstep. Just imagine... No Delvers. No Miracle spells. No Oko. No Eldrazi, the list continues...
    Bšm, Junge. Bšm.

  4. #24

    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Ahem,
    Ahem what? Your comment has nothing to do with what I said, while also being self-contradictory. I did you a favor by snipping it.

  5. #25

    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I think it's naive to think that Legacy has ever been anything but a solved format. Unsolved formats don't have pillars, and legacy definitely has pillars that the format wraps itself around. Sure it changes on occasion, but ideally over a long progression of time that means more decks are becoming viable to adapt rather than fewer. If anything, I'm in the camp that I want Legacy to be solved for longer, rather than shorter, lengths of time. Every new set creates a massive shift with ensuing chaos. I'm all for new playable cards, cards that enable new combos, and ways of making games more interesting. I absolutely LOVE how Thassa's Oracle has brought Doomsday back into playability. It's awesome that Dreadhorde Arcanist has become a key threat in URx delver variants.

    Now let's shift to the unhealthy changes: Underworld Breach, Lurrus, and even 'Oko' (which I will use as the name for the PW power creep.) Small Teferi, Karn the Great Creator, and Oko are three examples of PW's that were pushed to their absolute limit on mana efficiency-to-power ratio. Lurrus is included in between 55-75% (roughly) of decks that perform well currently. Underworld Breach warped the format into 'best deck + decks that hate it'.

    If I were to summarize, I'd say Legacy players are mostly ok with a solved format, we just want that format to have as many options as possible.
    If you're gonna use Oko as the powercreep PW, can we please unban Wren & Six cause my foils are collecting dust

  6. #26
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Ahem what? Your comment has nothing to do with what I said, while also being self-contradictory. I did you a favor by snipping it.
    Sorry I was unclear, I simply meant this:

    You want to be able to brew or revive old strategies. I was stating that Legacy should change slowly, meaning small changes, which allow for that kind of brewing or tinkering. Massive changes like inserting cards like W6 and Underworld Breach don't encourage widening the format by adding new decks but rather restrict the format by making some decks obsolete. Change over time should broaden the format, not restrict it. This goes right along with my premise that Legacy is a solved format. From my perspective, I'm fine that Legacy is a solved format that sees minor changes on occasion, rather than massive changes at every set release.

    I should clarify that what I mean by 'solved' is that there is a defined criteria for cards/decks to compete in Legacy. Legacy has always had that criteria, so I take that to mean it's a solved format. The formula for success hasn't changed in quite a while, likely since pure agro become obsolete (Zoo is my example here.)
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  7. #27

    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Look, lemme simplify this for ya'll.

    Like most of us on here, you were at one point a very competitive MTG player. Now you're old and don't have time for all that shit anymore and just want things to go back before all the new bullshit.

    Congratulations, you're now a casual player, and that's OK.

    I've enjoyed MTG and HS far more since realizing this. I'll play some boring meta deck up to whatever the minimal acceptable awards tier is over like, 2 days, then spend the rest of the month playing random nonsense for fun and not worrying about won-loss in the unranked q's. Try it. Letting go is good for you.

    EDIT: or make the "100 to the Xth" thread about alternate Legacy formats that don't mostly suck. Whatever man, do your fun where you find it.

  8. #28
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Look, lemme simplify this for ya'll.

    Like most of us on here, you were at one point a very competitive MTG player. Now you're old and don't have time for all that shit anymore and just want things to go back before all the new bullshit.

    Congratulations, you're now a casual player, and that's OK.

    I've enjoyed MTG and HS far more since realizing this. I'll play some boring meta deck up to whatever the minimal acceptable awards tier is over like, 2 days, then spend the rest of the month playing random nonsense for fun and not worrying about won-loss in the unranked q's. Try it. Letting go is good for you.

    EDIT: or make the "100 to the Xth" thread about alternate Legacy formats that don't mostly suck. Whatever man, do your fun where you find it.
    This might be the best advice someone could ever give.
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  9. #29

    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Look, lemme simplify this for ya'll.

    Like most of us on here, you were at one point a very competitive MTG player. Now you're old and don't have time for all that shit anymore and just want things to go back before all the new bullshit.

    Congratulations, you're now a casual player, and that's OK.

    I've enjoyed MTG and HS far more since realizing this. I'll play some boring meta deck up to whatever the minimal acceptable awards tier is over like, 2 days, then spend the rest of the month playing random nonsense for fun and not worrying about won-loss in the unranked q's. Try it. Letting go is good for you.

    EDIT: or make the "100 to the Xth" thread about alternate Legacy formats that don't mostly suck. Whatever man, do your fun where you find it.
    Hilariously enough, Legacy is pretty much a casual format in everything but name like Vintage is.

  10. #30
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bignasty197 View Post
    This might be the best advice someone could ever give.
    That's a good advice, but once you go casual and play only with friends I think it's preferable to try to maximize fun with multiplayer formats / cube rather than capitalizing mostly on nostalgia. Boredom will appear sooner or later if you always play with the same small meta.
    That said this is a false dilemma, you can of course do both and vary your gaming sessions.

    If you aren't enough players for cube or if you don't want to invest in one, I developped a very fun and very cheap format optimized for 3-4-5 players with no mana death/full. You can probably build it with the commons / uncommons you have at home. Links in my signature.

  11. #31

    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    That's a good advice, but once you go casual and play only with friends I think it's preferable to try to maximize fun with multiplayer formats / cube rather than capitalizing mostly on nostalgia. Boredom will appear sooner or later if you always play with the same small meta.
    That said this is a false dilemma, you can of course do both and vary your gaming sessions.

    If you aren't enough players for cube or if you don't want to invest in one, I developped a very fun and very cheap format optimized for 3-4-5 players with no mana death/full. You can probably build it with the commons / uncommons you have at home. Links in my signature.
    That format sounds like an absolute blast. I love the card choices you make as well. And I absolutely love the mana rule.

    Unfortunately, I dont have most of those cards. Do you think the format will be fun even if we just play it with just any random pile of cards we have lying around? If not, is there anywhere I can buy a complete cube for not too much cost?

  12. #32
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    That format sounds like an absolute blast. I love the card choices you make as well. And I absolutely love the mana rule.

    Unfortunately, I dont have most of those cards. Do you think the format will be fun even if we just play it with just any random pile of cards we have lying around? If not, is there anywhere I can buy a complete cube for not too much cost?
    Wizards has heard us and released Mystery Boosters. I have two boxes of Mystery Boosters I'm keeping in abeyance for when total boredom hits or when my kids are old enough to appreciate the game (or my willpower fails and I rip them open for the hell of it). It's a fun set and could be a format unto itself.
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  13. #33

    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    That format sounds like an absolute blast. I love the card choices you make as well. And I absolutely love the mana rule.

    Unfortunately, I dont have most of those cards. Do you think the format will be fun even if we just play it with just any random pile of cards we have lying around? If not, is there anywhere I can buy a complete cube for not too much cost?
    I imagine that Lejayís format would be perfectly fun with whatever pile of cards you have lying around. I agree itís a very fun idea. Iíve also heard of a similar format where, instead of having a big pile of each basic land, you give each player a little pile that contains one of each basic land and one of each guildgate. Whenever a player would draw a card from the shared stack of spells, they can instead draw a land of their choice from their land pile.

    If weíre talking about casual formats that donít look like Legacy and donít cost money (if you have any collection at all), thereís also Pai Gow Magic, Limited Infinity, Reject Rare Draft, etc. Loads of options.

    I will pitch an idea here that I posted in another thread. This format could be played casually or competitively.

    Casual: Every player brings a Legacy-legal deck. Players are encouraged to bring a deck that is dirt cheap. Play an event/game night as usual (round-robin, elimination, whatever). At the end, everybody puts 10 randomly chosen cards from their deck into one big pile. The big pile is shuffled and dealt back out to all players. You own any card thatís dealt back to you.

    Reasoning: Itís like Magic back when everyone didnít know all the cards, didnít have all the rares, and could win or lose cards through ante. But unlike the old ante rules, players with weaker decks donít just get fleeced of their cards. Instead, cards get shared around, so veteran players are incentivized to win by building great decks with cheap cards that anyone could procure, rather than by risking expensive cards. You can never get blown out by someoneís fancy collection without having a corresponding chance to go home with a little bit of that fanciness. Veterans can have fun brewing decks that cost nothing, new players can gradually acquire the formatís best cards just by showing up for events (or by spending minimal money), and anyone can have fun just playing whatever they opened in a booster draft that one time.

    Competitive: How do you play competitively? If thereís any prize on the line, players become incentivized to play decks that are a *little* bit fancy with rares and whatnot and can get easy wins against the decks that are truly dirt cheap. So in the competitive version, after everyone has registered their decks and during the time people are playing, organizers use a card-vendor website to compute the dollar cost of each deck and make a ranked list from cheapest to most expensive. At the end of the Swiss or round-robin, thereís a ranking of who placed best and a ranking of which decks are cheapest. Sum your rank from the two lists (e.g., I came in 5th in the Swiss and my deck was the 3rd cheapest, so my score is 8.) Lowest score is the overall winner.

    I think the casual version has a lot of promise for veterans and newbies in a play group to have fun with any old pile and then have a ďwhatís in the box?Ē moment at the end.

  14. #34
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Look, lemme simplify this for ya'll.

    Like most of us on here, you were at one point a very competitive MTG player. Now you're old and don't have time for all that shit anymore and just want things to go back before all the new bullshit.

    Congratulations, you're now a casual player, and that's OK.

    I've enjoyed MTG and HS far more since realizing this. I'll play some boring meta deck up to whatever the minimal acceptable awards tier is over like, 2 days, then spend the rest of the month playing random nonsense for fun and not worrying about won-loss in the unranked q's. Try it. Letting go is good for you.

    EDIT: or make the "100 to the Xth" thread about alternate Legacy formats that don't mostly suck. Whatever man, do your fun where you find it.

    I identify with this a lot. I did buy into MTGO recently but the cost is much lower and the liquidity is high there so it doesn't bother me.

    In real life I definitely prefer CUBE and Battlebox.

  15. #35
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    That format sounds like an absolute blast. I love the card choices you make as well. And I absolutely love the mana rule.

    Unfortunately, I dont have most of those cards. Do you think the format will be fun even if we just play it with just any random pile of cards we have lying around? If not, is there anywhere I can buy a complete cube for not too much cost?
    Absolutely. I play a lot of vanilla creatures with a decent casting cost because I extended a lot the size of my Domain Pile for diversity (which is a nice thing when you have been playing for years). The more a card will offer choices the better, but having a lot of simple cards hasn't been a problem for fun and strategic interest.
    I think I am the only one to use a crazy-large "Domain Pile". The original name is "MiniWagic", a lot of players in France just use around 200 cards and not many go over 500-600 cards. I changed the name because I couldn't decently call it MINIwagic anymore and because I created a lot of rules of my own.
    Originally it was something small you would carry to the tournament scene to play with players who dropped.
    Even if your personal collection was really far from corresponding to what you need, I am sure you can gather enough worthwhile cards with your friends for a small pile of 150/200 cards and not spend a single cent.

    I think the main pitfall when building a new pile is not paying attention at all to ratios. You don't need to be very precise, but keep an eye on what you do. I would classify cards as you gather them in these piles :
    -creatures (You can count spells that put decent sized tokens into play. Spells that put a lot of 1/1s are valuable in the format but probably count them as "others")
    -creature removals
    -enchantments
    -enchantment removals
    -others
    (If you realize you are adding a lot of artifacts you may want to consider them too, but I think that's unlikely you find a lot of them)
    Aim for 40% creatures or more, around 0.6 removal per creature, and around 0.5 enchantment removal per enchantment. That's what I had when I checked 1-2 years ago (I was satisfied). But it's probably not a problem if you get like 38% creatures and 0.4 enchantment removal per enchant.
    Of course the more you balance colors the better but it's not that important unless the unbalance is huge.

    If you have a small pile and put a lot of Pyroclasm-like effects your small creatures and token producers will be way worse. Try to pay attention to that.

    Some enchantments can be very strong, especially if they stay on the battlefield for a long time. But at the same time enchantment removals will be useless without any target. So it's hard to know how many enchantment removals to run if you don't have a lot of enchantements in the pile. A nice thing to do even if you build a small pile is to max out on pacifism-alike cards as removals (I run all of them even at 4 mana). I also play most of the blue auras that keep the creature tapped. By having a lot of them you will make sure enchantment removals will have a target often enough. It's also a good thing that if a player wants to get back his creature with his only enchantment removal, he may very well regret it when a strong enchantment comes into play just after. But of course if you just don't have strong enchantments among what you have available, that's another story.
    A guy I know who uses an old frame only Domain Pile uses several copies of Pacifism (talking about the specific Pacifism card) and Counterspell (talking about the specific Counterspell card) as exceptions in his cube. I think this is legit to make an exception in the singleton rule for these as Cancel-like cards are a bit weak in multiplayer and Pacifism helps for balance.
    Personnally my only exception is Kindle (could be Flame Burst) which improved my removal ratio (with a very large selection it's easier to put in creatures than removals), helped supporting aggressive sequences (if you only select very good cards the format will be very controlling), and ups the red count (cheap agressive cards without evasion are less valuable in multiplayer so red count is always behind).

    The other pitfalls would mainly be misevaluating cards, the first being overestimating cards that have double mana of the same color.
    To justify taking a second basic land of the same type the card needs to provide card advantage or be very strong. Probably don't evaluate this parameter with what I have in my pile, for a very long time I had to be way more restrictive on double mana of the same color. It changed as the curve went up and the power level went down. The more you put RRx or WWx, the less of a problem it will be. Given you will build the pile out of what is good among what you and your friends own, it will depend a lot on the types of players you are. As legacy players I predict you will mostly have UUx and BBx spells, maybe GGx, and very few worthwile WWx and RRx spells. Don't try to balance double manas at first, this isn't as important as the rest. Just accept that it's easier for BBx spells to enter than for AAx spells.

    Everything that cantrips is better as you can choose land or spell depending on what you need.

    Life gain spells and walls are much stronger in multiplayer. It's not that easy to make a worthwhile attack into a wall when it opens your defense to several players.

    As a consequence cards that are good only if you can afford to attack are way weaker than you think. I really tried to play Dauthi Trapper (can give shadow to a big attacker OR to the big blocker when you attack with several creatures) but even with 2500 cards it isn't good enough. I don't even play Rally the Peasants (it can be played defensively but doesn't save your creatures and keeping 3 mana mana open at all times is too hard)

    Blocking is important for a creature, even just chumpblocking. I currently only have two Shadow creatures in my very large pile and they are quite particular. Even if I went up to 3300 cards I know I still wouldn't play Soltari Visionnary (WW+no block+fragile+situationnally good), I think that says a lot.

    Dissuasion is pretty valuable in multiplayer (Pit Trap, a cheap deathtouch creature, Seal of XXX,...)

    Mana hungry cards (I often say manavore) are weaker since you have the choice between land and spell on every draw. Unlike in constructed you can't really mana full and be happy to topdeck a mana sink. Cards like Centaur's Glade and Browse really are exceptions (and not that easy to play since they will trigger alliances against you). A card like Marchesa's Smuggler for example is junk because in addition to being manavore it is worthwhile only if you have the ressources to send a creature to attack.

    The value of vigilance varies a whole lot depending on the size of the body it is attached to. On big creatures it is very powerful, on small ones it is often worthless.

    A card that was good in constructed duels could be bad in the format (Aether Vial, Dark Ritual...). Delver of secrets is okay in my large pile but it's probably in the bottom 10% as it is fragile and doesn't help much for defense. You only flip it in the late game if the path is clear, but in the early game you use it rather as a delver than as an Insectile Aberration. The idea is to play it with at least 1 land in hand in the early game (in mid game you can probably skip a land drop) and use it to look at the top card of your spell library. If it's a good card you take it and can make your land drop anyway. If it's a card that isn't good for you, you take a land you need more and leave the spell to others. Sometimes it will flip early but more often than not the first time you are able to flip it you decline. But it could be different in other piles as I have a lot of instants in proportion (30% instants before the last big update).

    Cards with a double condition to be useful aren't worth it. Typically Spell Pierce (non creature+ not enough mana) or Disrupt.

    If you take a look at my list don't forget I use different special rules when evaluating my cards (energy counters, morphs cost 2 instead of 3...).

    A guideline for card selection that may be useful : if you really hesitate about the worthiness of a card (in terms of power level), put it in if it creates choices, don't if it's stupid.



    Regarding where to buy Commons / Uncommons if you need to, I don't know. But other users of MTGTheSource can certainly help you. When I started my "MiniWagic" there was an american shop I wasbuying from that was really cheap on these. Unfortunately I just discovered it closed (I don't name the shop because I had a browser alert when I went to their closed website a few minutes ago). There is probably another shop in your country that is cheap on commons+uncommons if you need to balance or extend your first list. Today I only use MagicCardMarket which supposedly only works well if you are in Europe.

  16. #36
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Look, lemme simplify this for ya'll.

    Like most of us on here, you were at one point a very competitive MTG player. Now you're old and don't have time for all that shit anymore and just want things to go back before all the new bullshit.

    Congratulations, you're now a casual player, and that's OK.

    I've enjoyed MTG and HS far more since realizing this. I'll play some boring meta deck up to whatever the minimal acceptable awards tier is over like, 2 days, then spend the rest of the month playing random nonsense for fun and not worrying about won-loss in the unranked q's. Try it. Letting go is good for you.

    EDIT: or make the "100 to the Xth" thread about alternate Legacy formats that don't mostly suck. Whatever man, do your fun where you find it.
    This one gets it.
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  17. #37

    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    There is currently a pre-war legacy discord with tournaments here if anyone is interested: https://discord.gg/kCRYsv4

    No prizes currently.

  18. #38
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Whatever happened to Choose Your Own Standard? That was a thing for a minute back in the late oughts. Did anyone ever try that without picking Ice Age block?
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  19. #39
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Pre-Goyf legacy was also a great format, before goyf pushed out a huge amount of creatures.
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  20. #40
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    Re: So who here is going to drop legacy for Pre-War legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Look, lemme simplify this for ya'll.

    Like most of us on here, you were at one point a very competitive MTG player. Now you're old and don't have time for all that shit anymore and just want things to go back before all the new bullshit.

    Congratulations, you're now a casual player, and that's OK.

    I've enjoyed MTG and HS far more since realizing this. I'll play some boring meta deck up to whatever the minimal acceptable awards tier is over like, 2 days, then spend the rest of the month playing random nonsense for fun and not worrying about won-loss in the unranked q's. Try it. Letting go is good for you.

    EDIT: or make the "100 to the Xth" thread about alternate Legacy formats that don't mostly suck. Whatever man, do your fun where you find it.
    Yep, realized this a few years back. Made things a lot more fun. Recently I've played more Hyperextended and June 2006 Legacy than anything else and had a blast.

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