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Thread: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

  1. #161
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Pros
    1 - It outclasses Gurmag Angler
    2 - most of the time it will outclass Tarmogoyf
    3 - it has trample, so it outclasses True Name Nemesis
    4 - it's a fucking 6/6 that can't be hit by Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, or Lightning Bolt
    5 - if it's Elk-ed it's still a 3/3 for R, which is still a Wild Nacatl.
    6 - It also allows your Lava Spike and Chain Lightning to act as removal spells, while still dealing 3 damage.
    Burn.dec doesn't want Gurmag Angler, Tarmogoyf, True-Name Nemesis or Wild Nacatl on turn 3 or later. It just wants more burn.

    On turn 3 Burn doesn't need to durdle with a creature that can't turn sideways until turn 4. It just wants to deal the last few damage. On turn 4 (after casting this), Burn doesn't need to double burn onto creatures. It just wants to deal the last few damage. This is also a terrible topdeck.

    Barook's math for turn 2 looks good, but now you're in A+B combo territory. You need to draw a specific combo of cards, without cantrips, and cast them in sequence. That's very high variance. Without those perfect hands, realistically this is a T3 card, which is a bit too slow. Regular Burn is less explosive but lower variance.

    In comparison you could use that 1 mana to cast Light Up the Stage into 1-2 more burn spells.

    This card looks a lot stronger in Dragon Stompy with Chandra. You can easily curve Chandra into 4-mana 6/6 trample, then Chandra gets to tick up while shocking creatures.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-10-2020 at 08:35 AM.

  2. #162
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Burn has had years to play Incinerator by another name: Thing in the Ice. They could play it with Volc, they could play it with Shockland, they could even play it with 1x Island off Tarn/Vista playsets. Both TITI and Incinerator require loss of turn 1 play (you’re cutting 1-drop dudes), both are bad without spells left in hand, and both are about equally reliable at pushing dmg through *if* you untap with them (bounce or trample). You can’t afford to take first turns off with a deck like Burn though, all to follow this weird tempo path that gives opponents more time and easier lines back into the game.

    Rift Bolt is a little able to offset loss of turn 1 dude with Incinerator (vs TITI), but you have to pony up another burn spell (this one is getting countered)...and uh ya...a card in your hand gets blown up (Incinerator) since you can’t cast it. Then you get to wait a turn to try and pseudo 3-for-1 yourself again. Remember, you don’t get to use that leftover mana on turn 2 b/c you need burn card in hand for this turn 3 attempt, so your opponent is at ~17 going into your turn 3.

    @FTW incremental lifepoint damage isn’t really how Moon Stompy wins, so much as cheese’ing 1-card combos under the cover of lock piece spam. They can only sustain so many cards they can’t cast in opening hands. If you’re getting to the point of “once I have Chandra in play” the only payoff card you’re casting is 6cmc uncounterable Chandra or Karn. Their deck also plays Bridge.

    Vial Smasher decks already play the miracle deal 5, and revealing this Incinerator domes for 6 and cuts it’s own cost down to R. It’s a power upgrade to Gurmag.

  3. #163
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Burn has had years to play Incinerator by another name: Thing in the Ice.
    As concise as possible:
    2mana off-color do-nothing for God knows how many turns (TITI) =/= 1redmana 6/6 trample + relevant text.

    Burning face =/= "taking turns off"
    Burning face =/= "pseudo 3-for-1 yourself"

    You're also not cutting 1drops; if anything the curve gets leaner:
    (OUT: 4 Swifty + 6-7 PoP/Firecraft/Vortex/land; in: 4 Incinerator + 4 Seals + 2-3 Skewer the Critics)
    Counting Seals, that's 22-3 Bolts.

    Sure, it gets countered. Investment: 1 mana. The only other 1mana spell eating Forces in Burn is T1 otp Goblin Guide. And this is more of a must-counter than both GG & Eidolon, which can also be Bolted, Decayed, or Pushed. Sure it gets Elked; that's a functional R: 3/3 that prevents a Food. That's still better than any post-T1 Swiftspear.

    A legitimate question to me is, does it go main or side, since PoP/Firecraft/Vortex certainly remain in the 75.

  4. #164
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    As concise as possible:
    2mana off-color do-nothing for God knows how many turns (TITI) =/= 1redmana 6/6 trample + relevant text.

    Burning face =/= "taking turns off"
    Burning face =/= "pseudo 3-for-1 yourself"

    You're also not cutting 1drops; if anything the curve gets leaner:
    (OUT: 4 Swifty + 6-7 PoP/Firecraft/Vortex/land; in: 4 Incinerator + 4 Seals + 2-3 Skewer the Critics)
    Counting Seals, that's 22-3 Bolts.

    Sure, it gets countered. Investment: 1 mana. The only other 1mana spell eating Forces in Burn is T1 otp Goblin Guide. And this is more of a must-counter than both GG & Eidolon, which can also be Bolted, Decayed, or Pushed. Sure it gets Elked; that's a functional R: 3/3 that prevents a Food. That's still better than any post-T1 Swiftspear.

    A legitimate question to me is, does it go main or side, since PoP/Firecraft/Vortex certainly remain in the 75.
    I like your post, and I think it sums up what I was thinking. I think it goes in the maindeck over Price of Progress, mostly because in general the format is using a lot more basic lands. In some matchups PoP will be the 6+ damage you want, others it will be 2-4 damage, below rate of what you want.
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Rift Bolt is a little able to offset loss of turn 1 dude with Incinerator (vs TITI), but you have to pony up another burn spell (this one is getting countered)...and uh ya...a card in your hand gets blown up (Incinerator) since you can’t cast it. Then you get to wait a turn to try and pseudo 3-for-1 yourself again. Remember, you don’t get to use that leftover mana on turn 2 b/c you need burn card in hand for this turn 3 attempt, so your opponent is at ~17 going into your turn 3.
    'Pony up another burn spell'...you're joking right? You're saying it would be difficult to have more than one burn spell in your opening hand?
    If I were a burn player and someone Force of Will/Daze's my turn 2 burn spell, I would probably do a fist pump. Any time you can goad your opponent into playing their cards out of sequence you are controlling the tempo of the game in a way you can convert into a win. Their early counters really need to hit repeatable sources of damage (GG, Swiftspear, Eidolon), otherwise it's a losing proposition.

    Burn may be hyper-linear, but that doesn't mean it has to be one-dimensional. The benefit to playing a 'slow combo deck' like burn is that it there aren't a lot of hoops to jump through to set up. You don't need cantrips to sculpt a hand, you just need Mountains. You can overload your opponent's resources by dictating the timing of their plays. The games that burn wins the easiest are games where t1-2 creatures do the bulk of the heavy lifting, allowing every top-decked burn spell to just go to the face. If instead you have Lava Spike/Rift Bolt/Chain lightning in your opening hand, it opens up your t2-3 Incinerator to be a must-counter spell. This opens the door for other threats or allows you to clear a counter so your Fireblast resolves.
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  6. #166

    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    I didn't even take into account how it effectively turns counter magic into a two-for-one when this gets stranded in your hand.

    Edit: You want to talk scenarios here we go:
    T1 Land, Delayed Bolt (Seal, Riftbolt) 5 cards in hand, 0 total damage
    T2 Cash-in Delayed Bolt, Land, cast second bolt (gets countered)
    T2A: Cast third bolt. 4 Cards in hand, 9 total Damage
    T2B: Hold on to your bolt to set up T3 Incenerator, 5 Cards in hand. 6 total damage
    T3A: Land, Cast Bolt, 4 damage 2 Mana spell. 3 Cards remaining in hand. 16 Damage. Any bolt is now lethal if your opponent fetched once. Or a Fireblast
    T3B: Land, Cast Bolt, If you have a 5th bolt here you can try and squeeze in the Incenerator, but now you're like 6 damage behind and hopping your opponent doesn't untap into Oko or Uro.

    This doesn't even take into account T2B where the counter is daze, where even if your bolt isn't countered you still can't afford the incinerator.
    The card is the definition of a win more: When you're ahead casting your spells it's doing work, and when you're behind it's sitting in your hand asking you to wait on casting burn spells because your 19 land deck can't ever afford to pay 6.

  7. #167
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Burn may be hyper-linear, but that doesn't mean it has to be one-dimensional. The benefit to playing a 'slow combo deck' like burn is that it there aren't a lot of hoops to jump through to set up. You don't need cantrips to sculpt a hand, you just need Mountains. You can overload your opponent's resources by dictating the timing of their plays.
    That's the advantage of Burn.dec (the current build).

    Incinerator takes that away. It creates hoops to jump through.

    You veer towards A+B combo territory by needing plays like T1 Rift Bolt into T2 Incinerator. You have to sequence in a narrower way, which helps opponent disrupt you. It undoes the good things about Burn just for high variance explosiveness.

    What if you have Incinerator without Rift Bolt or Seal? Awkward. Turn 3 at the earliest.

    What if you have multiple Seals and no Incinerator? You're just less efficient at burning.

    What if you have multiple Seals and Incinerator but no Bolts? You can't T2 it, and you have bad burn spells.

    What if you have the combo (Incinerator, Rift Bolt, Bolt) but one gets countered? You lose tempo and Incinerator becomes a blank, 2-for-1'd.

    What if you have the combo and Goblin Guide/Swiftspear? Awkward, you're forced to sequence GG T3 or later and give up easy damage.

    The Magical Xmas Land scenario is great, but what about all those other games where it takes away Burn's best strength.

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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Too bad Recruiter is still banned:
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    The trap I see is the mathematical proofs supporting the card illustrate the extremely narrow window to deploy this card.
    As others have said, powered out turn 2, your on par with exiting Burn. Not better, on par.
    Turn 3 using normal spells, game takes a little longer, but a 6/6 trample should beat up anything and squeeze out the last damage, so no big.
    Getting into turn 4 and beyond, you're into the place when most burn is in top deck mode. Which is fine, because they're usually at 3 so any bolt drawn is must-counter.
    So the notion that this is a good late game draw is unrealistic. Late game it will cost 6, sometimes 3, but probably 6. Aka: unplayable.
    And that's the trick. Burn is good because it has no dead cards. Everything does the same thing, so it doesn't matter what order you draw the cards in. The Rift Bolt you drew on turn 3+ has the same potency as the one in your opening hand.

    Incinerator is unsecured risk. At best you're not doing anything burn wasn't doing already. If your ceiling is zero and your floor is anything less than zero, that should tell you all you need to know.

    I'm not trying to come down hard on the card, it could have a place in something. If you had a constant enchantment output of damage every turn so any stage of the game it's cheaper, Honden of Infinite Rage or something, then this is a good fit. Two shines plus a bolt gets him out and then every turn after the shines do double duty; spectacular.
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021



    An Accumulated Knowledge that isn't as awkward in the mirror.
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Who cares about burn.


    Conspicuous Snoop would be pretty sweet with Goblin Recruiter though. Basically the Skill borrower combo except Recruiter grabs all the combo pieces by himself.
    Recruiter into Snoop + Kiki + Mogg Fanatic. Extremely compact and fairly mana efficient. If Snoop has haste he wins the turn he comes into play. Definitely trying this in commander.

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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    As concise as possible:
    2mana off-color do-nothing for God knows how many turns (TITI) =/= 1redmana 6/6 trample + relevant text.

    Burning face =/= "taking turns off"
    Burning face =/= "pseudo 3-for-1 yourself"

    You're also not cutting 1drops; if anything the curve gets leaner:
    (OUT: 4 Swifty + 6-7 PoP/Firecraft/Vortex/land; in: 4 Incinerator + 4 Seals + 2-3 Skewer the Critics)
    Counting Seals, that's 22-3 Bolts.

    Sure, it gets countered. Investment: 1 mana. The only other 1mana spell eating Forces in Burn is T1 otp Goblin Guide. And this is more of a must-counter than both GG & Eidolon, which can also be Bolted, Decayed, or Pushed. Sure it gets Elked; that's a functional R: 3/3 that prevents a Food. That's still better than any post-T1 Swiftspear.

    A legitimate question to me is, does it go main or side, since PoP/Firecraft/Vortex certainly remain in the 75.
    So you lose 4x 1-drops, which were specified as dudes. So you lost Swiftspear, so you lost turn 1 plays. You are offsetting this by saying Rift Bolt is gonna be your replacement turn 1 play.

    Now guess what every opponent is going to do on your turn 2... let Rift Bolt resolve, and then counter your second burn effect that costs 1 of your 2 mana. Guess what card you're not casting - Incinerator. Guess who doesn't get to use their second mana on turn 2 - you....because you need to hold 2 burn spells (and also have land #3).

    Stop assuming Incinerator can just be cast. This card isn't even going to threaten a trip to the stack early against a halfway decent oppo with a piece of interaction. The thing about spells you can't cast is that people don't need to counter them.

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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by ColeM View Post
    Who cares about burn.


    Conspicuous Snoop would be pretty sweet with Goblin Recruiter though. Basically the Skill borrower combo except Recruiter grabs all the combo pieces by himself.
    Recruiter into Snoop + Kiki + Mogg Fanatic. Extremely compact and fairly mana efficient. If Snoop has haste he wins the turn he comes into play. Definitely trying this in commander.
    Actually, somebody figured out a T3 kill by replacing Recruiter with Boogart Harbinger:

    https://twitter.com/MTGOsalseo/statu...09723747082240

    Edit: Look, red Polymorph:


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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Edit: Too slow. Missed that Snoop lets you make Kiki copy itself to go infinite. Much simpler.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Too bad Recruiter is still banned:
    Goblins Commander just got hilarious

    Goblin Recruiter becomes a 1-card combo.

    [Edit: You only need to stack Conspicuous Snoop -> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to make infinite tapped tokens for RR.
    Then copy Recruiter to find Sling-Gang Lieutenant/Mogg Fanatic (win-con) or Skirk Prospector (infinite mana) into other plays]


    Stacking the following cards:

    Conspicuous Snoop
    Skirk Prospector
    Goblin Warchief
    Mogg War Marshal
    Wily Goblin
    Frogtosser Banneret
    Pashalik Mons
    Goblin Instigator
    Beetleback Chief
    Siege-Gang Commander
    Goblin Marshal
    Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    Lightning Crafter
    //already enough to win

    Goblin Trashmaster
    Goblin Sharpshooter
    Goblin Chieftain
    Reckless Bushwhacker
    Goblin Bushwhacker
    Goblin Piledriver
    Legion Loyalist


    Needs 1RRRRR to go off next turn (or Goblins in play to convert to mana).

    Draw & cast Snoop for RR. (1RRR left)
    Prospector for R -> Sac Recruiter for R (1RRR left)
    Warchief for 1RR. (R left)
    War Marshal for R -> sac for RRR (RRR floating)
    Wily Goblin for RR -> sac for RB (RRB floating)
    Frogtosser for B (RR floating)
    Pashalik Mons for R (R floating)
    Goblin Instigator for R -> sac for RR (RR floating, +2 dmg)
    Beetleback Chief for RR -> sac for RRR (RRR floating, +3 dmg)
    Siege-Gang Commander for RRR -> sac for RRRR (RRRR floating, +4 dmg)
    Goblin Marshal for RRRR -> sac for for RRRRR (RRRRR floating, +5 dmg)
    Kiki-Jiki for RRR (RR floating)
    Lightning Crafter for RR -> Champion something (Warchief or Frogtosser probably)
    Kiki + Crafter + Prospector for infinite pings & infinite red mana

    You can follow that up with infinite tokens from Pashalik Mons, Trashmaster to blow up artifacts, and grow them into a big attack.

  15. #175

    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    ...

    Edit: Look, red Polymorph:

    Is it my impression or is this actually better than polymorph since it exiles which means it can be used with indestructible creatures and also with creatures that can be cast from exile?

    Anyway, never understood WotC's concept of colour pie. It seems to be used to justify some things and then willingly ignored when convenient.

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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by jmlima View Post
    Is it my impression or is this actually better than polymorph since it exiles which means it can be used with indestructible creatures and also with creatures that can be cast from exile?

    Anyway, never understood WotC's concept of colour pie. It seems to be used to justify some things and they willingly ignored when convenient.
    The color pie is a joke - just look at the color blue.

    They make up shit on the fly if it's convenient for them. E.g. turning suddenly turning black from a color with aggressive creatures to one with general higher toughness than power.

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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021



    Sometimes Furnace of Rath just isn't enough?



    I don't think this really cuts it, but it is an interesting use of Prowess.
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  18. #178
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Would the Snoopy Goblin would even be good in the context of Legacy Goblins alone? It’s card advantage, not that they need it.

    Maybe it’s what they need in Modern or Pioneer to be good? (I still think those format needs a Goblin Lackey)
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    Would the Snoopy Goblin would even be good in the context of Legacy Goblins alone? It’s card advantage, not that they need it.

    Maybe it’s what they need in Modern or Pioneer to be good? (I still think those format needs a Goblin Lackey)
    I don't know that it is necessarily that good, but consider the following line:



    That isn't terrible or unreasonable. But it does mean your deck is a bit more combo, but besides Harbinger, they can just be 1-ofs.
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    Re: The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I don't know that it is necessarily that good, but consider the following line:



    That isn't terrible or unreasonable. But it does mean your deck is a bit more combo, but besides Harbinger, they can just be 1-ofs.
    In Legacy it leads to a very different Vial Goblins build. But you can boost the consistency with:
    4x Snoop
    4x Harbinger
    4x Matron
    4x Ringleader

    Then you just need 1x Kiki and 1x Mogg Fanatic, which many Goblin decks run anyway, and you can run a mix of other toolbox targets.

    Kiki and all those tutors fit better into a WInstigator build, with Chrome Mox. Mox also means you can T1 Snoop -> T2 Harbinger into T2 win.

    Edit:

    //Artifacts: 7
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Aether Vial

    //Goblins: 33
    4 Goblin Lackey
    1 Mogg Fanatic
    4 Warren Instigator
    4 Conspicuous Snoop
    3 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Boggart Harbinger
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
    1 Goblin Trashmaster
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

    //Lands: 20
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    5 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    2 Badlands


    Toolbox SB is also well-supported (Goblin Chainwhirler, Earwig Squad, Warren Weirding).

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