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Thread: WotC bans cards for racism

  1. #181
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    I don't know how old you are, but compared to when I was a kid, we HAVE made massive, incredibly progress at eradicating racism.

    To give some numbers for context, in 1920, 61 people were lynched in the US - mostly black, some whites who tried to help them were also lynched - (numbers from NAACP) out of a population of 106 million. In 2019, 10 unarmed black people were shot by the police, and from a quick scan of the reports, it looks like 5 were bad kills (numbers from Washington Post) out of a population of over 330 million.

    In 1920, Woodrow Wilson's purge of blacks from the federal civil service was complete, and there was little popular outcry over the injustices facing black Americans. In 2020, there were massive worldwide protests against the racial injustices facing black Americans and other disadvantaged communities.

    Like, it's just not even close to what it once was.

    If not Farenheit 451, have you seen Equilibrium (Sean Bean, Christian Bale)? It's about a society that seeks to eliminate the sins of the old world by regulating emotion (weak philosophy, truly groundbreaking action sequences).
    Turning 41 this year, and I agree! I haven't seen Equilibrium though, sorry. Sounds dystopian, to say the least.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    I don't know how old you are, but compared to when I was a kid, we HAVE made massive, incredibly progress at eradicating racism.

    To give some numbers for context, in 1920, 61 people were lynched in the US - mostly black, some whites who tried to help them were also lynched - (numbers from NAACP) out of a population of 106 million. In 2019, 10 unarmed black people were shot by the police, and from a quick scan of the reports, it looks like 5 were bad kills (numbers from Washington Post) out of a population of over 330 million.

    In 1920, Woodrow Wilson's purge of blacks from the federal civil service was complete, and there was little popular outcry over the injustices facing black Americans. In 2020, there were massive worldwide protests against the racial injustices facing black Americans and other disadvantaged communities.

    Like, it's just not even close to what it once was.
    Well, I think it is hardly debatable that we can say that in many ways, things are much, much better than in 1890, or 1910, or 1920 and so on.


    But in other ways, like they way that Redlining policies devised in those times continue to have massive effects on only certain people, means that yes, physical violence is lower, but systemic, institutional and casual racism are still here and still have effects to this day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I would argue, norms are being challenged right now.
    The outcome is yet to be seen.
    That's why we are all posting in this thread.

    In my opinion, hiding these cards in the gatherer is hiding/erasing history.


    I also never argued for consensus.
    I argue they should ask the community and react based on their feedback.
    That doesn't need to be a majority or consensus.
    All I want to see is people speaking out, that stuff is offensive to them and why.
    Then WOTC has to make a decision.
    It doesn't matter if it's not offensive to someone as long as it's offensive to someone else who is affected by it.
    That doesn't include people that are offended by everything and always on someone else's behalf.
    Wizards has a "right" to branding. That is, they can say what they want to be on their website and what they want to be part of the game or not. They don't want things in it that depict what they consider to be racist connotations. They are not erasing history. They are not sending cease and desist orders to Scryfall. Wizards has every right to remove parts of the game that do not fit the games ideals. See Chaos Orb as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    The thing is, I dont even think this is an issue of being "anti-racist", it is primarily a performative and low effort response to them being part of the BLM witch hunt. I think the result of this just makes the topic of racism more of a taboo subject, which is different from 'anti-racism'. Making it a taboo doesn't make it go away, it just polarizes the beliefs even more through segregation, making them more dogmatic. This isnt to say I dont understand why they are doing it, there is a market demographic that they are catering to as a business, virtues have little to do with it and so I dont think this is something that should be celebrated as anything more than "corporate diversity".

    I think there is a distinction to be made between depicting racism and actually being racist, a distinction that has been continuously ground down to the point where it basically no longer exists in common discourse nowadays. I don't think that just because a card can be interpreted as depicting racism, it is therefore an endorsement for racism, I dont even consider Invoke Prejudice to be an explicitly racist card, despite it representing a function of being racist.
    So, even if it is low-effort, then it should not be done? Of course you snag the low-hanging fruit before you scale the tree, right?

    I am not celebrating Wizards. I am simply making the point that their move is justifiable, as far as I am concerned.

    Again, context clarifies the distinction between depiction and endorsement. Again, I don't know how many times I can say this, but the game does not facilitate contextual analysis. And so, it is likely best to just not have questionable stuff in it, as far as I can tell. Or, at least, as little as possible.
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  3. #183
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    This is literally the reasoning behind Mao's Cultural Revolution, and it's the same stuff that the Nazi's and Communist's did to their own history. In a more modern American context it's very similar to the reasoning Bush used to get us into Iraq with "pre-emptive war" - a war I fought in by the way, that is and was incredibly more messed up than any of you who weren't there realize. History is messy and violent and full of terribleness, much like the present, every time some ideological movement comes along and tries to "purify" the past it ALWAYS ends really, really badly. Great art, like Jackson's music, is often made by awful human beings, that diminishes the person who made it, not the art itself.

    Schools of thought like what you're advocating are what lead someone protesting police brutality - like say, Colin Kaepernick - to wear a t-shirt of Fidel Castro (noted abuser of human beings via secret police and torture) at a press conference about why it's bad when government police forces hurt citizens.
    You’re missing a key piece of what I’m saying: this is a children’s game, and children aren’t taught real history. They get the simple version, because high-level assessment is an adult skill (even then you have to hunt down classes at university level to learn real history). If you want to market a children’s game with pictures of Klansmen, you need to stop marketing this as a game parents don’t need to monitor.

    These cards aren’t being rounded up and burned, nor are they made illegal to own. If you want to have them and admire them, you can do that all on your own. If you would like to discuss them in a group of people who truly understand the darker side (or at the very least put up disclaimers), fine. Some public behaviours are not acceptable however; leave the racist cards at home, play the Michael Jackson music behind closed doors, don’t run Leni Riefenstahl films in front of uninformed audiences, etc.

    One easy way for any board game store to follow suit here would be to take games like Archipelago off the shelves, or put them in sections marked as challenging/adult content and not sell them to minors. Game stores [hopefully] don’t run borderline racist game nights, and there’s no reason Magic events should walk into “oops, looks like racism” moments when there is no need to, nor benefit.

  4. #184

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You’re missing a key piece of what I’m saying: this is a children’s game, and children aren’t taught real history. They get the simple version, because high-level assessment is an adult skill (even then you have to hunt down classes at university level to learn real history). If you want to market a children’s game with pictures of Klansmen, you need to stop marketing this as a game parents don’t need to monitor.

    These cards aren’t being rounded up and burned, nor are they made illegal to own. If you want to have them and admire them, you can do that all on your own. If you would like to discuss them in a group of people who truly understand the darker side (or at the very least put up disclaimers), fine. Some public behaviours are not acceptable however; leave the racist cards at home, play the Michael Jackson music behind closed doors, don’t run Leni Riefenstahl films in front of uninformed audiences, etc.

    One easy way for any board game store to follow suit here would be to take games like Archipelago off the shelves, or put them in sections marked as challenging/adult content and not sell them to minors. Game stores [hopefully] don’t run borderline racist game nights, and there’s no reason Magic events should walk into “oops, looks like racism” moments when there is no need to, nor benefit.
    Are we really sure this is a children's game, though?

  5. #185

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    So, even if it is low-effort, then it should not be done? Of course you snag the low-hanging fruit before you scale the tree, right?

    I am not celebrating Wizards. I am simply making the point that their move is justifiable, as far as I am concerned.

    Again, context clarifies the distinction between depiction and endorsement. Again, I don't know how many times I can say this, but the game does not facilitate contextual analysis. And so, it is likely best to just not have questionable stuff in it, as far as I can tell. Or, at least, as little as possible.
    Sure it is a low hanging fruit, but is it the right tree to be scaling is the question that is being asked. I have already expressed my doubts as to why these certain types of actions end up being more harmful despite their intentions. You and I are both in agreement that they are justified in their actions, but while they may have good intentions I believe actions like these aren't that beneficial at all.

    I would say that intent clarifies the distinction more than context, saying it is purely contextual can and has ended up with cases of 'putting words in peoples mouths' over things that others believe to be racist when that wasn't the intent. I would also argue the opposite on whether or not these things should be in the game, but I understand that this is not a popular opinion at all. These concepts in fiction provide environments where people can approach difficult subjects with less consequence/ social cost, while being further removed from the biases and group pressures that exist in society. It can provide a valuable stepping stone for these issues that have often become too polarized to discuss fruitfully in contemporary society. If we aren't capable of looking at this issues in fictional environments, what does that say about our ability to discuss them in real life? If the endgame is to reduce racism, developing an understanding as to why racism exists, rather than making it taboo, will prove to be more successful, WOTC themselves practice this when they deal with issues of inclusivity and diversity. That is why I actually think that the virtuous position here would be not to perform these banning/ censorship.

  6. #186

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You’re missing a key piece of what I’m saying: this is a children’s game, and children aren’t taught real history. They get the simple version, because high-level assessment is an adult skill (even then you have to hunt down classes at university level to learn real history). If you want to market a children’s game with pictures of Klansmen, you need to stop marketing this as a game parents don’t need to monitor.

    These cards aren’t being rounded up and burned, nor are they made illegal to own. If you want to have them and admire them, you can do that all on your own. If you would like to discuss them in a group of people who truly understand the darker side (or at the very least put up disclaimers), fine. Some public behaviours are not acceptable however; leave the racist cards at home, play the Michael Jackson music behind closed doors, don’t run Leni Riefenstahl films in front of uninformed audiences, etc.

    One easy way for any board game store to follow suit here would be to take games like Archipelago off the shelves, or put them in sections marked as challenging/adult content and not sell them to minors. Game stores [hopefully] don’t run borderline racist game nights, and there’s no reason Magic events should walk into “oops, looks like racism” moments when there is no need to, nor benefit.
    MTG is as much of a children's game as video games are. The average gamer in America is 36. Standard decks cost upwards of $1000. You're not getting that scratch on a paper route. Some kids play MTG, sure, absolutely, but they're not even close to the majority of the crowd.

  7. #187
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I would say that intent clarifies the distinction more than context, saying it is purely contextual can and has ended up with cases of 'putting words in peoples mouths' over things that others believe to be racist when that wasn't the intent. I would also argue the opposite on whether or not these things should be in the game, but I understand that this is not a popular opinion at all. These concepts in fiction provide environments where people can approach difficult subjects with less consequence/ social cost, while being further removed from the biases and group pressures that exist in society. It can provide a valuable stepping stone for these issues that have often become too polarized to discuss fruitfully in contemporary society. If we aren't capable of looking at this issues in fictional environments, what does that say about our ability to discuss them in real life? If the endgame is to reduce racism, developing an understanding as to why racism exists, rather than making it taboo, will prove to be more successful, WOTC themselves practice this when they deal with issues of inclusivity and diversity. That is why I actually think that the virtuous position here would be not to perform these banning/ censorship.
    Well, I am going to disagree with you there. Sure, intent can be considered, but you can hurt people even with the best intent. So, I don't think intent simply clears it all up.

    Still, Wizards is not qualified or in position to really foster the sort of deep discussion that is necessary. I think Wizards is wise to not get themselves into the depiction vs endorsement debate at all, which is what removing all these should help to do. It's simply not a good place to try to do business from for them.

    Being sensitive is not being overly-sensitive. I think all those cards were fairly clear examples of cringe-worthy connotations and the game is better off to not have them. Was anyone really offended? Who cares? You take out the trash even if it isn't actively stinking up the house, pretty much.

    But if you start from an a priori notion that all of this is bad, of course you can reason yourself there in any number of ways.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    MTG is as much of a children's game as video games are. The average gamer in America is 36. Standard decks cost upwards of $1000. You're not getting that scratch on a paper route. Some kids play MTG, sure, absolutely, but they're not even close to the majority of the crowd.

    ^it’s really poor form to post 13+ age and introduce children to adult content. Really poor optics on that one.

  9. #189

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Can anyone point me in the direction of a resource that breaks down options for selling an entire card collection? Thanks in advance.

  10. #190
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Lava Snacks View Post
    Can anyone point me in the direction of a resource that breaks down options for selling an entire card collection? Thanks in advance.
    How to Sell Magic Cards

    Sell YourMTG Collection

    Selling a Collection

    Also you can just go to TCGPlayer, make a collection list then use that to show people on Facebook groups what you have for sale.
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  11. #191

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    How to Sell Magic Cards

    Sell YourMTG Collection

    Selling a Collection

    Also you can just go to TCGPlayer, make a collection list then use that to show people on Facebook groups what you have for sale.
    Perfect; thanks a lot.

  12. #192

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I am going to disagree with you there. Sure, intent can be considered, but you can hurt people even with the best intent. So, I don't think intent simply clears it all up.

    Still, Wizards is not qualified or in position to really foster the sort of deep discussion that is necessary. I think Wizards is wise to not get themselves into the depiction vs endorsement debate at all, which is what removing all these should help to do. It's simply not a good place to try to do business from for them.

    Being sensitive is not being overly-sensitive. I think all those cards were fairly clear examples of cringe-worthy connotations and the game is better off to not have them. Was anyone really offended? Who cares? You take out the trash even if it isn't actively stinking up the house, pretty much.

    But if you start from an a priori notion that all of this is bad, of course you can reason yourself there in any number of ways.
    I didn't say intent explicitly matters, only that intent is more important, or at least more important than what most think. In terms of ethics I don't think use of outcome to judge character is as effective as intent since outcome involves variables outside of ones control, and while there may be cases where people have inadvertently offended due to poor outcome, I would like to think that under normal circumstances a rational actor would be able to make the distinction. Sure I can concede that in many cases actors aren't acting rationally, but under that presumption there is no real definition of what is racist outside of mob rule. Being hurt is a reaction, understanding that reaction rather than succumbing to it creates a better outcomes than simply wanting vengeance of some sort, just because someone (or many people) get angry or offended, it doesn't mean they are just or correct.

    I don't think one needs to be qualified to have any discussion on this matter, but regardless they certainly feel qualified to use their platform to promote discussion about other social issues that are prominent in today's society, the difference is that the issues they promote bear relatively low social cost while currying favor with demographics they wish to market to, while at the same time those groups have made racism a taboo subject to discuss. Again, I am not dismissing the fact that what they are doing is prudent under current conditions, I am saying that these are clearly business decisions and being virtuous has little to no influence.

    I don't actually think any of the cards were especially egregious or cringe worthy or whatever. Clearly Invoke Prejudice can allude to racism (which the card is a functional representation of), and stone throwing devils is apparently a slur (though I have yet to find any resources on this), but up until a week ago nobody really cared about any of these cards at all, to use your analogy they weren't even stinking up the house, they were largely forgotten in the back of a closet somewhere and basically nobody knew they existed, now they are just a scapegoat.

    To be clear, I am not even saying the action itself is bad, just a symbol of our times and probably just blatantly disingenuous, but I guess they really don't have choice. It is a case of a company's knee jerk attempt to virtue signal in order to protect their business interests, and kowtow to a witch hunt that showed up at their door who are now a little more happy that cards they didn't know existed until a week ago are back to not existing. So what is worth celebrating from this whole debacle, the company that pretends to be virtuous but is spineless, or the angry mob that forgoes rational discussion in favor of token reparations?

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Being hurt is a reaction, understanding that reaction rather than succumbing to it creates a better outcomes than simply wanting vengeance of some sort, just because someone (or many people) get angry or offended, it doesn't mean they are just or correct.
    By the same logic, just not being offended or hurt does not mean that something is not offensive or hurtful. Again, you make the a priori assumption that these cards are benign and non-offensive. People have pointed out that notion as questionable at best, as far as I can tell, yet to you it is still foundational fact. Hard to get anywhere from there with that baggage.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    So what is worth celebrating from this whole debacle, the company that pretends to be virtuous but is spineless, or the angry mob that forgoes rational discussion in favor of token reparations?
    Who says anything here is worth celebrating? Who says the only options are virtuousness or spinelessness? Why do you assume an "angry mob that forgoes rational discussion?" What are we doing here right now? And "token reparations?" Really, that is the word you want to use here? First, not only is it not the applicable word, since nothing is be repaid in any sense, but I think it likely reveals (along with other likely hints in your posts) your further commitments. If not, still, you throwing around buzzwords hardly makes any case.
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  14. #194
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    You guys are overly sensitive. Are some cards racial? Yes. Does it matter ? No. It's part of the history of magic. It's cardboard anthropology. Make better designs in the future and just leave oldschool the way it is. We were supposed to ban cards only for rules vioolations (shahrazad, ante, draft) or power level. No one is gonna play Stone Throwing Devils, and the whole POINT of invoke prejudice is to be racist towards a color. Yes, the subject matter of the art is nasty and the card's ban is legitimate.

    What's next? We're gonna dredge up the debate on Demonic Tutor and Unholy Strength?

    F*ck this sh*t

    I get really tired of this liberal identity politics crap wizards pulls with LGBTQ Elf storyline. Can the game just be the game??? What's the point of playing a game in an escapist universe when you're confronted with the same political shit that you're trying to get away from?

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    You guys are overly sensitive. Are some cards racial? Yes. Does it matter ? No. It's part of the history of magic.
    You can replace cards with confederate statues and flags and magic with U.S. and you can see what argument you're making and who else is making it and why you shouldn't
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  16. #196

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    You guys are overly sensitive. Are some cards racial? Yes. Does it matter ? No. It's part of the history of magic.
    (Snip)
    F*ck this sh*t
    You’re being overly sensitive. Is it part of the history of Magic? Yes. Does it matter? No. Are some cards racist? Yes.

    If WotC wants to be PC, a tough non-whiner like you should be able to handle it, right? After all, it’s now part of the history of Magic that you cannot play with those cards. Only a whiner would prioritize their personal sense of what’s appropriate over the history of Magic. Right?

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    You can replace cards with confederate statues and flags and magic with U.S. and you can see what argument you're making and who else is making it and why you shouldn't
    Without going into the actual politics of the matter, I will never ever support an activism group that defaces a statue of the president that freed the slaves in the first place and stirs up racial division to the point of a new civil war.


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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I get really tired of this liberal identity politics crap wizards pulls with LGBTQ Elf storyline. Can the game just be the game??? What's the point of playing a game in an escapist universe when you're confronted with the same political shit that you're trying to get away from?
    Well, you haven't really made a coherent point, just thrown some curse words, called people "overly-senstative" but also that the ban was legitimate. So, who knows what you are actually trying to say.

    Even so, you fail to realize the irony in applying what you said there to your own perspective. Can't this be an "escapist game" where I don't have to see my opponent deploy literal stylized KKK cards while I am trying to enjoy the game? I guess not, said the pot to the kettle.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    You’re being overly sensitive. Is it part of the history of Magic? Yes. Does it matter? No. Are some cards racist? Yes.

    If WotC wants to be PC, a tough non-whiner like you should be able to handle it, right? After all, it’s now part of the history of Magic that you cannot play with those cards.
    Sure I can. I just feel more and more disenfranchised with Magic, like many other lifetime players. And yes they'll gladly replace me for some young 15 year old kid on MTGA. That's the way the world works.

    Guess I'll spend my money on something else

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    @bruizar this isn’t leftist identity politics. Protests are going on all over the US, and every corporation in this country is looking for something [largely symbolic, meaningless, and long overdue] to point to that says they recognized the problem and have implemented [insert hollow gesture] as their process improvement.

    This is how corporations work - problems are not fixed as long as you can hide behind an ever-growing pile of shallow process improvements. If you don’t like this, you have an issue with leadership, business, and masters programs on these topics which created and sustain this behaviour.

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