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Thread: WotC bans cards for racism

  1. #201

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Sure I can. I just feel more and more disenfranchised with Magic, like many other lifetime players. And yes they'll gladly replace me for some young 15 year old kid on MTGA. That's the way the world works.

    Guess I'll spend my money on something else
    Oh I see, you’re “disenfranchised” but those other people were being “overly sensitive.”

  2. #202
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Oh I see, you’re *disenfranchised* but those other people were being *overly sensitive.*
    If only we had some way to consider the disenfranchised, like people who were labeled criminals based on perceived race, denied home or business loans, or lynched for crimes never committed and so on.

    Oh, wait, we are talking about not wanting to play a card game any more because uppity "liberals" are ruining it. For a second, I thought we were considering things of real importance, like people being able to actually live their lives, .
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  3. #203
    bruizar
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, you haven't really made a coherent point, just thrown some curse words, called people "overly-senstative" but also that the ban was legitimate. So, who knows what you are actually trying to say.

    Even so, you fail to realize the irony in applying what you said there to your own perspective. Can't this be an "escapist game" where I don't have to see my opponent deploy literal stylized KKK cards while I am trying to enjoy the game? I guess not, said the pot to the kettle.
    Off the top of my head, these cards should also go:

    Black Ward
    White Ward
    Circle of Protection: White
    Circle of Protection: Black
    Unholy Strength
    Demonic Tutor
    Army of Allah (Can't use Allah's name)
    Terror (Apparently, black people are terrorists)
    Hellfire (Black people cause hellfire)

    Once we're done with racism and we can expand the definition of culturally insensitive to include Cultural appropriation, which is also part of certain BLM activisits. That means we can basically ban almost every culturally themed block, including Amonkhet, Visions, Ixalan, etc etc.

    Once you start, there's no end to it.

  4. #204
    bruizar
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    If only we had some way to consider the disenfranchised, like people who were labeled criminals based on perceived race, denied home or business loans, or lynched for crimes never committed and so on.

    Oh, wait, we are talking about not wanting to play a card game any more because uppity "liberals" are ruining it. For a second, I thought we were considering things of real importance, like people being able to actually live their lives, .
    You don't help black people by banning old collectible cards. You help them by redesigning the social contract in such a way that big tech doesn't become a gigantic money sink that sucks out all the available capital from circulation. For each billionaire, how many black people could be lifted out of poverty? America isn't racist, it's ill-designed. Victimizing groups never helped anyone survive on their own. BLM shouldn't be about black lives, it should be about black livelihoods. 300k black abortions per year no one cares about, but people care about the individual case. It's the same as with the thousands of Syrian refugees no one cared about, and then there's this one photo of a Syrian baby washed up on the shores of Greece and everybody takes their little moment on social meedia to signal virtue and showcase their empathy, then move on with their lives.

  5. #205

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    And yet, somehow, I don’t see WotC banning all of that. So are you thinking of quitting because you can no longer play Invoke Prejudice at sanctioned events? Or because you can no longer play Cleanse at sanctioned events? Or because WotC was inconsistent about something highly subjective?

    If you don’t like Magic anymore, that’s cool. A lot has changed since the 1990s.

    Edit: Nobody’s saying that banning Invoke Prejudice is going to lift a generation out of poverty. But then, it’s not gonna ruin Magic either, except seemingly for you. (?)

  6. #206
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Off the top of my head, these cards should also go:

    Black Ward
    White Ward
    Circle of Protection: White
    Circle of Protection: Black
    Why? What do color words have to do with Racism? Why connect them? You've made no case.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Unholy Strength
    Demonic Tutor
    Again, go on with the case. Why are these an issue? You aren't going to convince anyone of anything by just pointing at it forcefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Army of Allah (Can't use Allah's name)
    Here you actually have made an actual case and I'd be likely to support it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Terror (Apparently, black people are terrorists)
    Hellfire (Black people cause hellfire)
    I see no coherent logic in either of those. The Color black (in Magic terms, generically) is not in either of these cases denoting, as far as I can tell, the notion of Race.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Once we're done with racism and we can expand the definition of culturally insensitive to include Cultural appropriation, which is also part of certain BLM activisits. That means we can basically ban almost every culturally themed block, including Amonkhet, Visions, Ixalan, etc etc.

    Once you start, there's no end to it.
    Well, go on then. What is cultural appropriation, why is it an issue and why are those examples problems with it?

    Oh, wait, you are just evoking the position as a sort of boogeyman position that somewhere, someone might hold, then use on us? Who is doing that? Please point them out and we can have an actual rational conversation about their position. Until there is actually a stance and a point made, who could possibly denote it's merit or refute it?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  7. #207
    bruizar
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    And yet, somehow, I don’t see WotC banning all of that. So are you thinking of quitting because you can no longer play Invoke Prejudice at sanctioned events? Or because you can no longer play Cleanse at sanctioned events? Or because WotC was inconsistent about something highly subjective?

    If you don’t like Magic anymore, that’s cool. A lot has changed since the 1990s. But this is the breaking point?
    I don't even have those cards. I already had a similar moment when my playset of Shahrazad was banned which I actually did take to tournaments. Anytime an old card gets axed, it's a bad moment for people that love the original game.

    And yes, I like 90ies magic a lot better than the powercreep, frequency of new set releases, overly aggressive reprint policy and overcrowded product roadmap mixed in with identity politics. You're lying if you don't agree with me, otherwise I honestly don't know WTH you're doing on a legacy forum.

  8. #208
    bruizar
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, go on then. What is cultural appropriation, why is it an issue and why are those examples problems with it?
    https://thepostmillennial.com/pelosi...ation-photo-op

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    You don't help black people by banning old collectible cards. You help them by redesigning the social contract in such a way that big tech doesn't become a gigantic money sink that sucks out all the available capital from circulation. For each billionaire, how many black people could be lifted out of poverty? America isn't racist, it's ill-designed. Victimizing groups never helped anyone survive on their own. BLM shouldn't be about black lives, it should be about black livelihoods. 300k black abortions per year no one cares about, but people care about the individual case. It's the same as with the thousands of Syrian refugees no one cared about, and then there's this one photo of a Syrian baby washed up on the shores of Greece and everybody takes their little moment on social meedia to signal virtue and showcase their empathy, then move on with their lives.
    Umm, yeah, you missed the whole part of the thread where we already went over how this is Marketing 101. Hasbro does not save the world in this movie.

    Once again though, you are just making some list of grievances that signal your social and political stances and tell us nothing about this case, really.
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  10. #210
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    America isn't racist, it's ill-designed.
    It's well designed in a racist way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    And what am I supposed to draw from that? Yeah, if you are posing for a photo-op, in the guise of "helping people" but you've never really helped them, since redlining and many other policies are still on the books, you are likely opening yourself to criticism. What is the problem here? What is not reasonable about that?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  12. #212

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Sure I can. I just feel more and more disenfranchised with Magic, like many other lifetime players. And yes they'll gladly replace me for some young 15 year old kid on MTGA. That's the way the world works.

    Guess I'll spend my money on something else
    Aren't you the "whale" who threw a tantrum like last month saying you were done anyways?

  13. #213
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    I'm still waiting for anyone that is really bothered by this to actually describe this awful dystopian future of magic. Does it really boil down to not wanting magic to turn more juvenile in appeal, like Pokemon? I remember when PokemonGo was first released, that stuff was the shit.
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  14. #214
    bruizar
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Aren't you the "whale" who threw a tantrum like last month saying you were done anyways?
    Couple of months ago, and yes I correctly predicted the direction WOTC is taking this game. You can bash me all you want, but the legacy community is dwindling fast. So don't focus your energy on me please.

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    You can replace cards with confederate statues and flags and magic with U.S. and you can see what argument you're making and who else is making it and why you shouldn't
    What about context?

    I see nothing wrong with confederate statues in a museum or even in someone's backyard. Are you insinuating that mtg cards with racist overtones are being displayed in public spaces despite anyone's consent?

    Magic has over 25 years of history... You should be able to play any card you want in your deck the same way you should be able to wear any shirt you want on your body. If someone gets offended by your confederate flag shirt then they are free to walk away. No one is being harmed by a shirt and to pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

    It amazes me that we have a 9 page thread in 2 days about people conflicting racism and comfort. "Feeling uncomfortable" about something is an extremely weak argument and somehow it gets the same attention as actual acts of discrimination. A card depicting what looks like clans men may be offensive to some just the same as a swastika but it isn't racist. A robe and a pointy hat can represent many things and a swastika has been used to symbolize many different cultures over the years. Actually depriving someone of an opportunity based on their skin color is discrimination, and I fail to see where Wizards is doing such a thing.

    Racism is just very specific discrimination. There is only one race (human race) in our case and the classifications of racism are based on skin pigmentation. Stop for a second and think about how stupid this concept is. The more you talk about it and act upon it, the more you validate it. There is no such as as social justice, reparations or amends for the sins of others, and equality of outcome. There is only what is just (AKA: justice, period.), apologies from those who wronged you, and equality of opportunity.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  16. #216
    bruizar
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    And what am I supposed to draw from that? Yeah, if you are posing for a photo-op, in the guise of "helping people" but you've never really helped them, since redlining and many other policies are still on the books, you are likely opening yourself to criticism. What is the problem here? What is not reasonable about that?
    Using specific patterns, fabrics, symbols of specific cultures and applying them to another culture, either for recreational, commercial or activist goals. People take offense from cultural appropriation. (Like they do with everything, including supposed 'racism').

    That means that the entire Visions set should be banned, since it's based on Africa.

  17. #217

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    You’re being overly sensitive. Is it part of the history of Magic? Yes. Does it matter? No. Are some cards racist? Yes.

    If WotC wants to be PC, a tough non-whiner like you should be able to handle it, right? After all, it’s now part of the history of Magic that you cannot play with those cards. Only a whiner would prioritize their personal sense of what’s appropriate over the history of Magic. Right?
    lmao an advocate of blasphemy rules does not get to try to feebly turn it around on someone who doesn't want to adhere to the blasphemy rule and say, "no u iz whiner too."

  18. #218
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Using specific patterns, fabrics, symbols of specific cultures and applying them to another culture, either for recreational, commercial or activist goals. People take offense from cultural appropriation. (Like they do with everything, including supposed 'racism').

    That means that the entire Visions set should be banned, since it's based on Africa.
    That isn't a sustainable position, really. You can say it. People can say it, but it doesn't make it a justifiable position. What the question is, when using something of a given culture, is it placed in proper context, with due respect and reverence to it's origin. So yeah, if you, for example, pillage an African village then use it's cultural artifacts for profit, that is questionable at best.

    Just saying "you can't use anything African" in anything creative ever is an absurd position that almost no one would take seriously, outside whatever Twitter feed you want to imagine constitutes the actual world of intellectual thought. Anyone can say anything, it doesn't make it a justifiable position that would be taken seriosuly.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  19. #219

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    And yes, I like 90ies magic a lot better than the powercreep, frequency of new set releases, overly aggressive reprint policy and overcrowded product roadmap mixed in with identity politics. You're lying if you don't agree with me, otherwise I honestly don't know WTH you're doing on a legacy forum.
    I like Legacy for most of the same reasons as you, and I enjoy telling the samey, new digital artwork style to get off my lawn as much as the next guy. Make watercolors great again.

    But I’m totally unperturbed by what you call identity politics. Banning Invoke Prejudice? Good riddance? Banning Cleanse? Ehh, it’s less of an obvious case given the whole Priests-and-Paladins trope in fantasy gaming, but nobody played it anyway, and if you want to there’s always the kitchen table. Teferi is black? Whether or not that’s identity politics, I see no problem with it. Chandra is lesbian? Again, a non-problem.

    I don’t like old Magic cards because of their lack of identity politics, whatever that is. I like them because their best-case artwork was terrific and creative, because old cards did crazy things and weren’t designed for Standard or Limited, and because I owned them when I was a kid.

  20. #220
    bruizar
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    That isn't a sustainable position, really. You can say it. People can say it, but it doesn't make it a justifiable position. What the question is, when using something of a given culture, is it placed in proper context, with due respect and reverence to it's origin. So yeah, if you, for example, pillage an African village then use it's cultural artifacts for profit, that is questionable at best.

    Just saying "you can't use anything African" in anything creative ever is an absurd position that almost no one would take seriously, outside whatever Twitter feed you want to imagine constitutes the actual world of intellectual thought. Anyone can say anything, it doesn't make it a justifiable position that would be taken seriosuly.
    I have yet to see a sustainable position on racism in America. If black lives matter, why don't they protest for the black child soldiers in Africa? The slaves sold by black people in Libya? The 50% Haratine population of Mauritania that are born in slavery today? Instead of protesting for these black lives, they protest for George Floyd who put a gun to a pregnant woman's belly and has a criminal career of over 10 years.

    Black people in the west have food from all corners of the world available to them, more than Caesar did in his time, more information at their disposal through the power of internet than the Library of Alexandria and the opportunity to become the president of the greatest military power in the history of the world.

    Caesar would call them privileged.

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