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Thread: WotC bans cards for racism

  1. #121

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by BKclassic View Post
    No one seems to have pointed out that the reasons these cards were banned was because Zaiem Beg wrote a blog post calling Wizards for discriminatory hiring practices. Rather than address those hiring practices, Wizards is making a show of wokeness by banning a bunch cards. I wouldn't expect Wizards to address their hiring practices.
    People are too busy defending the principals behind why Racial Slur, the Card should never be banned ever.
    Real talk tho: Some people did bring it up but I think everyone agrees that this banning even if correct (and it is) is wholey performative.

  2. #122

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I could easily argue that the world isn't 'shittier overall' than it used to be. You're using a vague 'remember the good old days' kind of argument, something likely didn't really exist. I would say:

    1) The fact that slavery and segregation are gone in America, thereby making the world a lot less shitty. Racial profiling still happens, black Americans are incarcerated at a much higher rate, and black Americans are targeted by police. All of that was happening before, so we have a net loss in 'shitty' stuff because we at least don't have the slavery and segregation anymore.
    2) You keep saying 'psychotic'. What do you mean by that? I would really appreciate a clear example of how making progress (less racism) is making the world more psychotic, therefore contradictory.
    Uff, sorry mate, I'm too old to be any active keyboard warrior, would love to have this discussion over a beer, but it would take too much time and energy to type it all out. I'll just say that with "psychotic" I was referring to a whole slew of problems our society has these days, racism being just one of them.

    And to conclude this, in wise words of Mr. Mackey: Racism is bad, mkay.

    Nuff said.

    edit: had to edit this post, will be my last posting here as even moderators have turned ill:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Are you bothered you can't throw around derogatory language and have your buddies in the locker room snicker?
    That is very ill and very low of you, you lost all my respect and your credibility.

  3. #123
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    The thing is that context is something the viewer constructs. It's up to you.
    I'm going to go ahead and call this wrong. Viewers don't construct context, they construct interpretation. The context is the framework, the boundaries defining a situation. Interpretation is deciding what those boundaries actually mean.

    Context: a person pulls out their wallet at a store and drops $20

    Interpretation 1: money isn't very important to them, they drop it and don't even notice!
    Interpretation 2: that person isn't aware of their surroundings, maybe they are impaired?
    Interpretation 3: hey, they dropped $20, I should return it to them
    Interpretation 4: hey, they dropped $20, it's my lucky day! Hope they don't see me picking it up before they realize its gone.

    The context won't change: someone dropped $20 at a store. The rest is interpretation unless investigated, opening a line of communication to discover the real answer.

    Rant over.
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  4. #124
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    2) Context is incredibly important. Someone owning the only white car in a parking garage could be a racial statement, especially if they did it on purpose with the intent of creating division. If someone just likes white cars, it isn't. Context is incredibly important. If it clearly isn't intended, well, then it is clearly unintended and reasonable people won't put any weight to it.
    That's actually a good example to show how things can go horribly wrong if context is applied wrong:

    1. Person A really likes white cars.
    2. Person A buys white car.
    3. Person B now calls Person A a bigoted racist piece of shit for owning a white car.
    4. Person A doesn't know what they did wrong and the divide between people increases.

    Not racist, but still a good example for Magic things taken out of context: Triumph of Ferocity. The fight where Garruk wanted Liliana to lift the Veil curse from him was completely taken out of context with social media echo chambers screaming "RAPE!", resulting in Garruk being shifted out for years. That this wasn't the flavor of the card and that Liliana won the fight as depicted in Triumph of Cruelty was completely ignored.

  5. #125
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I don't buy that for a second. You can't tell me with a straight face that the weight of someone's opinion in the decision-making process of this doesn't have final say or influence over the decision to move forward with eliminating a card from virtual existence because they're overly sensitive. "Wizards" here is being used as a general term, because the people that are "weeding" through this is likely small. Good-intentioned or not, some decisions are ludicrous. And I don't want the game and its players to be punished because someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
    It isn't "overly sensitive" at all. It is just sensative. The "overly" rejoinder is your commentary, not a fact of their response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I think we can all agree their decision-making has been deeply flawed in all areas - especially the disaster of last year into this year.
    That is so out of context is is hard to reply. Sure, their new marketing and design methodology is likely (in the long-term) flawed in my opinion, but they are not in the business of catering to me, they are in the business of selling cards. Been working swimmingly for them in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I'm not saying they wouldn't. But if you look at the cards they've initially banned, a majority of those children have likely never seen or even heard of those cards, so it really has no impact on them because they haven't been playing with them for 30 years like we have.
    You focus on the wrong part. The fact is that this game is aimed at being inclusive. These cards are not deemed to fit that ideal. You can disagree freely. But there is rational and justified belief on this front, even if you don't see it that way. The thing is, these card, if they ever saw play, likely would in EDH. At the store I go to, there are numerous sub-teen kids that play. So no, I don't agree that none would ever see these cards. And the precedence of them having existed so long tells us nothing but that Wizards was blasé from the get go and ongoingly, not that action now is unjustified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    And that's what this boils down to: opinion. That's been my point. They aren't asking you or me for your opinion on this - they're telling you once they make a decision and try to rationalize it why they made the decision. This is where it gets political. Since this is unprecedented, who's to say they won't ridiculously ban cards that aren't racist in context but could be perceived as racist because six or seven people think so - and now they've impaired your ability at choice to use those cards if you really liked or played with them?

    Is that a sacrifice your willing to adhere to and accept since Wizards is saying that's how it's going to be?
    You really are aimed at this "conspiracy" angle. I honestly don't think I can help you. Who's to say indeed. Probably best to just sell out now.
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  6. #126
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Miagi View Post
    That is very ill and very low of you, you lost all my respect and your credibility.
    Cheers and have a great day!
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  7. #127

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    That's actually a good example to show how things can go horribly wrong if context is applied wrong:

    1. Person A really likes white cars.
    2. Person A buys white car.
    3. Person B now calls Person A a bigoted racist piece of shit for owning a white car.
    4. Person A doesn't know what they did wrong and the divide between people increases.

    Not racist, but still a good example for Magic things taken out of context: Triumph of Ferocity. The fight where Garruk wanted Liliana to lift the Veil curse from him was completely taken out of context with social media echo chambers screaming "RAPE!", resulting in Garruk being shifted out for years. That this wasn't the flavor of the card and that Liliana won the fight as depicted in Triumph of Cruelty was completely ignored.
    Exactly. Because believe it or not, white and black can actually coexist in a smaller world where they have nothing to do with human color. It's astounding.

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    That's actually a good example to show how things can go horribly wrong if context is applied wrong:

    1. Person A really likes white cars.
    2. Person A buys white car.
    3. Person B now calls Person A a bigoted racist piece of shit for owning a white car.
    4. Person A doesn't know what they did wrong and the divide between people increases.
    5. They discuss it together, solving both context and intent. This is how change happens. Now you don't have increased divide but rather 2 people who overcame a misunderstanding.

    Not racist, but still a good example for Magic things taken out of context: Triumph of Ferocity. The fight where Garruk wanted Liliana to lift the Veil curse from him was completely taken out of context with social media echo chambers screaming "RAPE!", resulting in Garruk being shifted out for years. That this wasn't the flavor of the card and that Liliana won the fight as depicted in Triumph of Cruelty was completely ignored.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Not racist, but still a good example for Magic things taken out of context: Triumph of Ferocity. The fight where Garruk wanted Liliana to lift the Veil curse from him was completely taken out of context with social media echo chambers screaming "RAPE!", resulting in Garruk being shifted out for years. That this wasn't the flavor of the card and that Liliana won the fight as depicted in Triumph of Cruelty was completely ignored.
    See my earlier post. What is the likely-hood that everyone who sees ToF will then immediately see ToC to get the "full context."

    The game does not facilitate such card-spanning context in any way. The idea was flawed from the start.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    See my earlier post. What is the likely-hood that everyone who sees ToF will then immediately see ToC to get the "full context."

    The game does not facilitate such card-spanning context in any way. The idea was flawed from the start.
    They could have RTFC for one.

  11. #131

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    3) The best goal of all this isn't to pander to 'hurt feelings' or 'overly sensitive people'. The best goal is to prevent, as much as possible, offensive material to the public as a whole.
    I find this to be most disagreeable sentence in this entire thread. People are not children or babies. They do not need to be shielded from "offensive" material, particularly when that term is ever-changing, has no agreed upon meaning, and is inherently subjective.

    In fact, I would go as far as to say you are doing the whole world a disservice by engaging in this type of paternalism. For example, in high school (at least when I was there decades ago and during essentially the pre-internet era) we were exposed to quite a number of books with racist themes that I'm sure were highly offensive to some of the teenagers reading them. This was a good thing.

    Why you might ask? It sparks conversation. It sparks introspection. It sparks growth in individuals.

    In today's climate, I don't think we could have had those important conversations. Someone would get offended. Their parents would complain. And the teacher may get in trouble or fired. This is a step in the wrong direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    but ignoring even small bits of avoidable offensive material is a shit approach to rooting it all out.
    The wrong approach is to "root it out" which really just means ignore it or pretend it never existed which is what we're really talking about in the context of this conversation. By that logic, they should just stop teaching slavery in school and pretend it never existed. As you say, too offensive. Just root it out.

    The right approach is to face ourselves as imperfect human beings head on. That is the only way for growth and real change as opposed to pandering and virtue signalling.

  12. #132

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    I think they've been doing this for years, they are just tightening the standards. How many cards got made/proposed/named/art submitted for and they said, "woah, no way!" and never saw the light of day? I have no idea, none of us do (unless there are secret Wizards employees lurking here).

    They've done this before on a smaller scale with the pentagram/satanic artwork and depictions/use of demons. Maybe they will eventually ban some cards that actually see large amounts of play and people will have to make workarounds. That's it. But ultimately if people are less hesitant to approach the game because designers are (at least now) more actively approaching problem cards and acknowledging them and doing something about it, then is that not ultimately good for the game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
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  13. #133

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It wasn't 'a lot more chill' for everyone. What you're describing, finding different ways of communicating so people aren't offended, is called progress.
    I think the point is if you compare polls from minority groups from the 90s compared to the last 10 years, the one's from the 90s said racism is less of a problem and that race-relations were better. Now, do we actually believe racism is more prevalent today than the 90s? No. So why do the polls from minority groups suggest that? Could outrage culture (i.e. people seemingly spending every waking moment of their day actively looking to interpret things in a manner in which offends them) have anything to do with it?

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    In fact, I would go as far as to say you are doing the whole world a disservice by engaging in this type of paternalism. For example, in high school (at least when I was there decades ago and during essentially the pre-internet era) we were exposed to quite a number of books with racist themes that I'm sure were highly offensive to some of the teenagers reading them. This was a good thing.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    See my earlier post. What is the likely-hood that everyone who sees ToF will then immediately see ToC to get the "full context."
    You don't even need the full context of the story to get the gist of what's going on.

    Picture: Some dude pinning down a woman and threatening her with a weapon.
    Flavor text: "Rid me of this curse, witch, or die with me."

    So dude wants the evil witch to lift her curse from him or otherwise he's willing to kill her and then himself.

    But hey, he chokes her, therefore it's sexual innuendo.

  16. #136

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    MTG is not Huckleberry Finn
    Except the exact same logic and the exact same groupthink is actually being applied in both situations. You're fooling yourself if you think you can neatly separate these things. Hasbro's approach to this is due to the new societal norms we are seeing crop up and if you think that has/will be confined to just this card game you are fooling yourself.

    This isn't about the card game. This is about way way way more than that. This is just one ugly manifestation of a broader societal shift.

    Magic actually perfectly and ironically embodies this. In the past, it was religious fundamentalists calling for censorship of this game. Now the woke people are the new censors. I disagreed it with then. I disagree with it now.

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    They could have RTFC for one.
    Well, I have read it, how does it clarify that it is not violence against women again? The only context the card gives is a man threatening a woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    I find this to be most disagreeable sentence in this entire thread. People are not children or babies. They do not need to be shielded from "offensive" material, particularly when that term is ever-changing, has no agreed upon meaning, and is inherently subjective.

    In fact, I would go as far as to say you are doing the whole world a disservice by engaging in this type of paternalism. For example, in high school (at least when I was there decades ago and during essentially the pre-internet era) we were exposed to quite a number of books with racist themes that I'm sure were highly offensive to some of the teenagers reading them. This was a good thing.

    Why you might ask? It sparks conversation. It sparks introspection. It sparks growth in individuals.

    In today's climate, I don't think we could have had those important conversations. Someone would get offended. Their parents would complain. And the teacher may get in trouble or fired. This is a step in the wrong direction.
    Yeah, because in school there is the context of discussion. This is a game which does not facilitate that at all. Again, see my earlier post.

    The issue is not really safetyism or protectionism, but rather, making the game friendly, inviting and inclusive. You want to talk about topics such as racism, sexism and the like? Do that within a facilitating context, not a card game. Not everyone wants to have that discussion in a leisure activity. To expect Wizards to facilitate such discussions through Magic cards themselves is not a burden they could ever fulfill to anyone's satisfaction.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    I think the point is if you compare polls from minority groups from the 90s compared to the last 10 years, the one's from the 90s said racism is less of a problem and that race-relations were better. Now, do we actually believe racism is more prevalent today than the 90s? No. So why do the polls from minority groups suggest that? Could outrage culture (i.e. people seemingly spending every waking moment of their day actively looking to interpret things in a manner in which offends them) have anything to do with it?
    Or could it be (even if these mention statistical analysis are robust and meaningful) people now just realize what is really going on and are more contingent of it?

    You might want to look up what statistics were used from from the 1890's Census here in the US to see how statistics were used to present a broad and overtly racist ideas, leading up to and fueling many of the Jim Crow laws that were then put in place. Statistics are only meaningful when you can really isolate all the factors going into them. I hardly imagine we can do that here.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I have read it, how does it clarify that it is not violence against women again? The only context the card gives is a man threatening a woman.
    See:
    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    You don't even need the full context of the story to get the gist of what's going on.

    Picture: Some dude pinning down a woman and threatening her with a weapon.
    Flavor text: "Rid me of this curse, witch, or die with me."

    So dude wants the evil witch to lift her curse from him or otherwise he's willing to kill her and then himself.
    :
    Murder and rape are different things. The man demanding the woman remove the curse implies that she placed it on him. He wants healing, but will accept revenge. She is making a fireball as they speak.

  20. #140

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Yeah, because in school there is the context of discussion. This is a game which does not facilitate that at all. Again, see my earlier post.

    The issue is not really safetyism or protectionism, but rather, making the game friendly, inviting and inclusive. You want to talk about topics such as racism, sexism and the like? Do that within a facilitating context, not a card game. Not everyone wants to have that discussion in a leisure activity. To expect Wizards to facilitate such discussions through Magic cards themselves is not a burden they could ever fulfill to anyone's satisfaction.
    I disagree that you can neatly separate areas of society/life that can be censored from areas that cannot be censored. Once you have a society that accepts censorship, it will permeate the entire society likely in a rapid and insidious fashion. If you don't make a stand early on this issue, it will spiral out of control until we are literally banning books in school, which oh by the way is already happening for the very same reason and why people are justifying these bans.

    My disagreement with the banning of these cards is purely based on principle so if you are going to say "well this doesn't have a big effect so it's worth sacrificing it on the altar of not being offensive" I will say I disagree fundamentally with that notion. There is no degree of censorship that should be allowed in any aspect of society purely for some subjective notion of being offended.

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