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Thread: WotC bans cards for racism

  1. #41

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Can anyone explain what's wrong with Stone-Throwing Devils to me? I'm confused.

    EDIT: And I made the mistake of looking at the twitter thread linked in the OP. Mark Rosewater apologized for playing "Hangman" as racist. I honestly can't tell if that's real or a parody account.

  2. #42

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Wizards found it racist. The people who made their Indian themed citadel a literal 7/11.
    Yeah, I don't think I'm going to hold Wizard's opinion with any real regard on this one, or in general.

  3. #43

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Can anyone explain what's wrong with Stone-Throwing Devils to me? I'm confused.

    EDIT: And I made the mistake of looking at the twitter thread linked in the OP. Mark Rosewater apologized for playing "Hangman" as racist. I honestly can't tell if that's real or a parody account.
    It's a slur against Quakers and comes from an episode of violence in America against them.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithobolia

  4. #44

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    It's a slur against Quakers and comes from an episode of violence in America against them.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithobolia
    I feel like 90% of the things I've learned that I was doing that were supposedly "racist" over the last decade have been kind of mostly forgotten by everyone but a couple of hard core racists and a couple of hard core activists, and now thanks to twitter we all have to pretend like it's a real thing that means that in everyday life.

    I'm going to guess, that like me, 99% of people had never heard of that deal with the Quakers. Or the "OK" symbol, or the original American Flag designed by Betsy Ross. At some point we have to be like, "no, it doesn't actually mean that, that's just seven crazy people yelling on the internet, ignore them and continue with your lives".

  5. #45

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    As long time lurker this finally made me register.

    I really hate how WOTC is dealing with this issue. It is painfully obvious that they only want to collect their woke points instead of actually caring about the issue.
    Racism is a topic and should be discussed. However they chose to self-censor instead of having a real discussion.
    They could have added a disclaimer that those cards and artworks don't represent their companies views and be done with it instead of swiping some of their history under the carped and publicly announce doing so. Just like some 30s and 40s cartoon that are super racist now but were "acceptable" back then.

    (I could only find the ones with replies in high res. The one without was very pixelated.)



    While I don't dispute that some of these cards have artworks/connotations that can be rightfully be considered offensive by some people, racism has been a theme and should be a theme in fantasy. A lot of fantasy is about more or less thinly veiled morality tales. Only in that case the other "race" is literally another species like orcs or goblins. It's fine to have that theme if you make clear that you don't support such notions and use it for a purpose. I'm not a PoC but in my opinion, cards like Tivadar's Crusade are intrinsically far more racist than Jihad or Crusade.

    The whole thing just opens up a huge can of worms since you'll always find someone offended by anything.
    I suspect a lot of people would be offended by the depiction of "satanic" rituals or gods that have no know blood ties with Jesus.
    But those are not the target audience so nobody cares.

    Bottom line:
    Censorship doesn't make racism go away and you shouldn't try to get internet points for it.

  6. #46

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but not entirely sure why you had to also post a photo of positive responses to that WB disclaimer you showed. If it was as great as you make it out to be it'd speak for itself, no?

  7. #47
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    i gotta try...
    Brainstorm is racist because only blue mages can cast it...

  8. #48
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but not entirely sure why you had to also post a photo of positive responses to that WB disclaimer you showed. If it was as great as you make it out to be it'd speak for itself, no?
    Its the same picture.
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  9. #49

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but not entirely sure why you had to also post a photo of positive responses to that WB disclaimer you showed. If it was as great as you make it out to be it'd speak for itself, no?
    I could only find the ones with replies in high res. The one without was very pixelated.
    Will add that as an edit.

  10. #50
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    I've seen a similar message for classic tv shows like All in the Family. Bugs Bunny has nothin' on Archie Bunker.
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Just look up Disney's Song of the South. Some things deserved to banned on these grounds.

  12. #52
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Yes, all of those cards can be considered racist (some just ARE racist), but banning them doesn't erase them from MTG history, acknowledging them is one thing, but this feels like a knee-jerk reaction with little thought put into it. There's a LOT more cards that fall under the loose criteria they've set, that if this is their path, they are going to have a long banned list for sensitivity coming up. They've basically opened themselves up for a lot more criticism and nitpicking over cards, as we're already seeing and rightfully so, but the proper way to address this (IMO) is to address it in the REAL world with how they're making their company more diverse and inclusive to never have scars like this happen within their games going into the future.

    TL;DR: It's a reactive adjustment to their historical racism (which is fine), instead of a proactive adjustment to ensure the company doesn't repeat its mistakes going forward.
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  13. #53

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I could only find the ones with replies in high res. The one without was very pixelated.
    Will add that as an edit.
    Fair enough haha. Just sort of reminded me of those posts you see on Facebook of "epic" Tumblr threads that always include the replies about how great and funny the post was, its a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

    So while it certainly isn't your fault, I will continue to judge whoever originally made that image!

  14. #54
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Censorship doesn't make racism go away and you shouldn't try to get internet points for it.
    Agreed

    Censorship can easily go into stupid directions. Ironically, WB has just announced this week that Elmer Fudd isn't hunting Bugs Bunny with a gun anymore - instead, he's using a fucking scythe.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jander78 View Post
    Yes, all of those cards can be considered racist (some just ARE racist), but banning them doesn't erase them from MTG history, acknowledging them is one thing, but this feels like a knee-jerk reaction with little thought put into it. There's a LOT more cards that fall under the loose criteria they've set, that if this is their path, they are going to have a long banned list for sensitivity coming up. They've basically opened themselves up for a lot more criticism and nitpicking over cards, as we're already seeing and rightfully so, but the proper way to address this (IMO) is to address it in the REAL world with how they're making their company more diverse and inclusive to never have scars like this happen within their games going into the future.

    TL;DR: It's a reactive adjustment to their historical racism (which is fine), instead of a proactive adjustment to ensure the company doesn't repeat its mistakes going forward.
    Thing is, WotC doesn't learn from their mistakes. We've seen that time and time again.

    Watch them hire some token black person, promoting the fuck out of them in a "Look how inclusive we are!"-way, then wait 2-3 years to fire them while not hiring any other people of color.

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Thing is, WotC doesn't learn from their mistakes. We've seen that time and time again.

    Watch them hire some token black person, promoting the fuck out of them in a "Look how inclusive we are!"-way, then wait 2-3 years to fire them while not hiring any other people of color.
    I fully agree, that's why they need to actually address the systemic issues within their company instead of offering these minimal effort patches.
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  16. #56
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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    I feel like 90% of the things I've learned that I was doing that were supposedly "racist" over the last decade have been kind of mostly forgotten by everyone but a couple of hard core racists and a couple of hard core activists, and now thanks to twitter we all have to pretend like it's a real thing that means that in everyday life.

    I'm going to guess, that like me, 99% of people had never heard of that deal with the Quakers. Or the "OK" symbol, or the original American Flag designed by Betsy Ross. At some point we have to be like, "no, it doesn't actually mean that, that's just seven crazy people yelling on the internet, ignore them and continue with your lives".
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  17. #57

    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Props to them for getting rid of Invoke Prejudice. There are a lot of MtG themes and artworks that require some indulgence, but that one is over the line. Honestly I’d just make the Tempest version of COP: Black off-limits, too. Players bringing that version of the card to a tournament can be instructed to put a slip of paper into a sleeve with a basic land.

    It’s a learning moment just realizing that the Tempest COP:Black has Klansmen looming in it.

    In general the artwork issue is quite subjective. I agree that Tivadar’s Crusade is super messed up.

    Is there something specific people refer to when they talk about racism in WotC? I’m not aware of the context there.

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Just look up Disney's Song of the South. Some things deserved to banned on these grounds.
    I can't agree with this. Bad art is still art and deserves the same protections, even iif it was in poor taste at the time of creation.

    On topic, something about this just doesn't sit well with me. This is a game about superpowered asshole wizards trying to kill each other. Acts of violence and hate are depicted on many cards and genocide is something that can actually be carried out in game (shout out to Plague Engineer, Extinction, goofy stuff like Zombie Apocalypse etc.). Shit how is Crusade giving white creatures +1/+1 less offensive than Honor of the Pure song the same thing?

    This whole situation is ass.

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Shit how is Crusade giving white creatures +1/+1 less offensive than Honor of the Pure song the same thing?

    This whole situation is ass.
    That's part of the problem - aside from Invoke Prejudice, about which they wrote two entire paragraphs, they just dropped a bunch of other cards, going "That's racist!", giving no reason whatsoever, leaving people scratching their heads about certain cards. A short reasoning for each card would have helped alot.

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    Re: WotC bans cards for racism

    @morgan_coke they need to start teaching the real history of countries. Thomas Jefferson was a slaveowner who raped on the side, Christopher Columbus committed genocide and definitely shouldn’t have a day celebrating his life, etc...

    The problem is when you have educational institutions which fail to teach the bad stuff. Those who want to have the simple viewpoint of “we’re the good guys” need to stop being surprised when there is more to the story, and others are upset when it’s ignored.

    These bannings happening today are lip service to the BLM protests going on all over the US (specifically). This isn’t some slippery slope down to what some small amount of ultra-leftists in some dark corner of the internet think. Hasbro sent out a memo to all their managers and they instituted a hollow reform to say they did something, welcome to how corporations work. This system of meaningless process improvements (instead of ever going to an employee who screwed up and saying “that was dumb, don’t do that again”) is what you should be reacting to if all the changes irk you. It’s not worth trying to play whack-a-mole against barely meaningful groups trying to take your words; focus on leadership, business, and all those business administration masters programs pushing process improvement over actually dealing with a problem head-on.

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