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Thread: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

  1. #21

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    WOTCs new FIRE development philosophy which started with War of the Spark may have contributed to this. They have also been a lot looser in their design, 2020 isnt even over and there have been more bannings in the 4 major constructed formats ever in a calendar year I think.

    That picture is really useful for putting things into perspective, but I disagree with the claim that we can blame anything that started with War of the Spark. War of the Spark was released in 2019, and we can see that the notable increase in bans started in 2017. It is true that 2019/2020 had more than 2017/2018, but at that point it's a matter of degrees.

    At this point, I feel these constant bannings are just the new normal, especially in Standard. In 2017 you could've written it off as them just majorly goofing up in set design temporarily, and 2018 as them still working on fixing the problems that were present since 2017. Happened in Urza's Saga and Mirrodin where they just majorly goofed up, but after the bans were finished things went back to normal afterwards. But it continuing in 2019 and 2020? We're in the situation I've repeatedly heard Yu-Gi-Oh is in, where bannings are a constant fact of life. I suppose the difference is that in Yu-Gi-Oh players know that's the case, but in Magic we're still continually thinking again our better judgment "maybe Wizards of the Coast finally fixed things this time, and we won't have bannings this frequent in the future."

    The Pokemon TCG seems to be the only one of the big three now that doesn't seem to be constantly suffering from bannings in their main format... well, maybe. I looked it up and it seems they literally last week announced two cards were going to be banned in their Standard format... but it's also the first Standard bannings in 5 years, so this could just be a case like Jace and Stoneforge where they went years without a ban, banned a few cards in one go, then the ban-less status quo resumed. We'll see.

    The craziest thing about these bans, though, is how much of it is Simic. It's one thing to look at Oko and mistakenly think "this card is okay." It's another thing to think that Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Growth Spiral, and Uro all in the same format is somehow acceptable.

  2. #22

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    That picture is really useful for putting things into perspective, but I disagree with the claim that we can blame anything that started with War of the Spark. War of the Spark was released in 2019, and we can see that the notable increase in bans started in 2017. It is true that 2019/2020 had more than 2017/2018, but at that point it's a matter of degrees.

    At this point, I feel these constant bannings are just the new normal, especially in Standard. In 2017 you could've written it off as them just majorly goofing up in set design temporarily, and 2018 as them still working on fixing the problems that were present since 2017. Happened in Urza's Saga and Mirrodin where they just majorly goofed up, but after the bans were finished things went back to normal afterwards. But it continuing in 2019 and 2020? We're in the situation I've repeatedly heard Yu-Gi-Oh is in, where bannings are a constant fact of life. I suppose the difference is that in Yu-Gi-Oh players know that's the case, but in Magic we're still continually thinking again our better judgment "maybe Wizards of the Coast finally fixed things this time, and we won't have bannings this frequent in the future."

    The Pokemon TCG seems to be the only one of the big three now that doesn't seem to be constantly suffering from bannings in their main format... well, maybe. I looked it up and it seems they literally last week announced two cards were going to be banned in their Standard format... but it's also the first Standard bannings in 5 years, so this could just be a case like Jace and Stoneforge where they went years without a ban, banned a few cards in one go, then the ban-less status quo resumed. We'll see.

    The craziest thing about these bans, though, is how much of it is Simic. It's one thing to look at Oko and mistakenly think "this card is okay." It's another thing to think that Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Growth Spiral, and Uro all in the same format is somehow acceptable.
    I didnt mean to imply that it was only because of the new philosophy, only that it might be contributing to it, specifically the anomaly of 2020. There is a general increasing trend, but it looks like previously they created pushed sets/ cards at certain intervals (maybe for meta considerations), as every other year appears to have similar trends before the 2020 uptick. Considering the ~2 year development cycle of sets, it may be a little while longer of similar design choices before any reaction to the recent sets is seen in the game.

    I think the reason simic is getting banned is for some reason it is the 'new blue' in that I assume the major design challenge over the past decade was how to make other colors better. They initially tried just printing better cards, but blue card selection/draw always made it better for them to splash the better cards then just playing those other colors most of the time. So they started to give things that make blue good to other colors (mainly green), like card selection/ advantage, Uro, UOAT, Veil, Growth Spiral, basically all do this, even stuff from earlier like stirrings and oath of nissa as well. Simultaneously the things other colors get are either too strong in the relevant formats (lurrus, wrenn, fires of invention, some combo cards) or are very strong and also played in combo like strategies (all the graveyard and artifact stuff that was banned in modern, breach, field of the dead etc) which are next up on the 'this stops me from attacking with creatures, i hate this play style' chopping block, after counters and land destruction got neutered years ago. Just look at the greatest hits this development team has brought since Kaladesh, they can claim they only develop for standard to disregard everything that has happened to the eternal formats, but when standard is as abhorrent as it has been that excuse doesn't work anymore.

  3. #23

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    That picture is really useful for putting things into perspective, but I disagree with the claim that we can blame anything that started with War of the Spark. War of the Spark was released in 2019, and we can see that the notable increase in bans started in 2017. It is true that 2019/2020 had more than 2017/2018, but at that point it's a matter of degrees.
    ...
    The picture also does makes clear a growing issue with interaction between new card design and old formats. Not that this is any news...

  4. #24
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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Well, I did play a little Historic Ranked yesterday and it was aggro decks galore. Seems like mission accomplished, I guess. Just that my deck was good against Combo, haha.

    But I am saving all my wildcards for Amonkhet and Pioneer Masters, so just going to slog it out.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  5. #25

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I did play a little Historic Ranked yesterday and it was aggro decks galore. Seems like mission accomplished, I guess. Just that my deck was good against Combo, haha.

    But I am saving all my wildcards for Amonkhet and Pioneer Masters, so just going to slog it out.
    Yeah, in historic, before you get above gold aggro is the (only?) way to go. After that different avenues open.

  6. #26
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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by jmlima View Post
    Yeah, in historic, before you get above gold aggro is the (only?) way to go. After that different avenues open.
    Yeah, since the season ended, I got bumped to high Silver and it is almost all Goblins so far. I've got a fairly large stockpile of wildcards though, so I need to look at where I want to go for a different deck post Amonkhet Remastered. I really want to try to build toward something like BUG Delerium, but that is not really on the radar for Historic until Pioneer Masters though, since AKH won't really add anything for that.

    I think I will just hold the line with what I have and keep on stockpiling wildcards for the time being. Maybe only burn a few to fill out the shocklands I am missing to open up a few more options.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Yeah, since the season ended, I got bumped to high Silver and it is almost all Goblins so far. I've got a fairly large stockpile of wildcards though, so I need to look at where I want to go for a different deck post Amonkhet Remastered. I really want to try to build toward something like BUG Delerium, but that is not really on the radar for Historic until Pioneer Masters though, since AKH won't really add anything for that.

    I think I will just hold the line with what I have and keep on stockpiling wildcards for the time being. Maybe only burn a few to fill out the shocklands I am missing to open up a few more options.
    I got to Mythic with this:

    It's pretty fun and you stomp on Goblins in Bo3. BUG so you can build towards the Pioneer deck.

  8. #28
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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    It's pretty fun and you stomp on Goblins in Bo3. BUG so you can build towards the Pioneer deck.
    Yeah, I had my eye on something like that. I generally only play BO1, because I generally don't have much time to play. Going to see how the meta shapes up in the next week or two, then see what I want to do exactly. Not to mention, my only Standard deck had Cauldron Familiar in it, so I have to think if I even want to bother making anything for that (probably not).
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  9. #29
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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I got to Mythic with this:
    play mythics -> get mythic
    -rob

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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    play mythics -> get mythic
    Magic has never not been pay 2 win.

    Although I've never purchased anything in MTGA, it's pretty easy to go semi-infinite with just the daily rewards.

  11. #31

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Magic has never not been pay 2 win.

    Although I've never purchased anything in MTGA, it's pretty easy to go semi-infinite with just the daily rewards.
    Well you could argue, that in recent years the percentage of rares/mythics in top deck has significantly increased.

    This is partially due to a shift in design (little threads and lots of utility -> more threads because they are too good) but also in upshifting everything.
    Now even removal (Rider) or utility (Borrower) are rare/mythic.
    Also they increased the frequency of land cycles which are also almost always rare.
    Which is why you can have 4c goodstuff.dec piles in standard due to fetches + temples + triomes (check lands before rotation).
    The only reason to play basics is for ramping and Fabled Passage.
    Nonbasic hate above Tectonic Edge/Field of Ruin is too much to ask for apparently.

  12. #32

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I didnt mean to imply that it was only because of the new philosophy, only that it might be contributing to it, specifically the anomaly of 2020. There is a general increasing trend, but it looks like previously they created pushed sets/ cards at certain intervals (maybe for meta considerations), as every other year appears to have similar trends before the 2020 uptick. Considering the ~2 year development cycle of sets, it may be a little while longer of similar design choices before any reaction to the recent sets is seen in the game.

    I think the reason simic is getting banned is for some reason it is the 'new blue' in that I assume the major design challenge over the past decade was how to make other colors better. They initially tried just printing better cards, but blue card selection/draw always made it better for them to splash the better cards then just playing those other colors most of the time. So they started to give things that make blue good to other colors (mainly green), like card selection/ advantage, Uro, UOAT, Veil, Growth Spiral, basically all do this, even stuff from earlier like stirrings and oath of nissa as well. Simultaneously the things other colors get are either too strong in the relevant formats (lurrus, wrenn, fires of invention, some combo cards) or are very strong and also played in combo like strategies (all the graveyard and artifact stuff that was banned in modern, breach, field of the dead etc) which are next up on the 'this stops me from attacking with creatures, i hate this play style' chopping block, after counters and land destruction got neutered years ago. Just look at the greatest hits this development team has brought since Kaladesh, they can claim they only develop for standard to disregard everything that has happened to the eternal formats, but when standard is as abhorrent as it has been that excuse doesn't work anymore.
    You know, looking back and thinking further on it, I don't think it's wrong to pinpoint 2019 as a shift.

    Sure, prior to that, cards were being banned at Standard at a very surprising rate. But look at the cards that were being banned in 2017 and 2018. Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage, Emrakul the Promised End, Felidar Guardian, Aetherworks Marvel, Attune with Aether, Rogue Refiner, Ramunap Ruins, Rampaging Ferocidon (the last of which was unbanned). These cards are mostly jokes in formats like Legacy or Modern. In fact, the only of these cards that see real play in Modern are Reflector Mage (in Humans) and Emrakul the Promised End (sideboard card in Tron), and they're far from the best cards in their respective decks.

    Why? Because the problem with Standard then was they forgot to print decent answers to cards. Except for maybe Felidar Guardian, basically everything could have easily been handled without bannings had you just added a few answers to the card pool.

    Now let's go into 2019, when the FIRE philosophy you mentioned started. Here are the cards banned in 2019 and 2020 in Standard: Field of the Dead, Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Fires of Invention, Cauldron Familiar, Growth Spiral, Teferi Time Raveler, and Wilderness Reclamation.

    You see a noticeable boost in the power level of these cards. Sure, some of them are still cards that are basically nonentities in Modern or Legacy, but then you have cards like Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, and Teferi--cards that saw strong play in formats like Modern or Legacy, some of them even getting bans. These things reshaped the older formats. These cards aren't getting banned in Standard because they were just dropped into a Standard environment that didn't have proper answers; they're getting banned because they're crazy powerful irrespective of answers. (though it's possible that if they had included any kind of nonbasic land hate in Standard, Field of the Dead might have skated by)

    So even if the number of bans haven't changed much (they've gone up, though), the cards being banned are markedly different. It's no longer a matter of "whoops, we should've maybe included a Pithing Needle effect to handle this!" anymore, it's "whoops, maybe we should have not ever printed this card in any way whatsoever."

  13. #33

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    ...

    It's pretty fun and you stomp on Goblins in Bo3. BUG so you can build towards the Pioneer deck.
    It's a leak, so take it with a pinch of salt, but Thoughtseize, RiP and collected Company, amongst others, are about to debut in Historic:

    Wrath of God (R)
    Thoughtseize (R)
    Pact of Negation (R)
    Shatterstorm (R)
    Demonic Pact (M)
    Hornet Queen (M)
    Rest in Peace (R)
    Anger of the Gods (R)
    Collected Company (R)
    Jace, Unraveler of Secrets (M)
    Chandra, Pyromaster (M)
    Sphinx’s Revelation (M)
    Source: https://mtgazone.com/amonkhet-remast...ena-pre-patch/

  14. #34
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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    You know, looking back and thinking further on it, I don't think it's wrong to pinpoint 2019 as a shift.

    Sure, prior to that, cards were being banned at Standard at a very surprising rate. But look at the cards that were being banned in 2017 and 2018. Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage, Emrakul the Promised End, Felidar Guardian, Aetherworks Marvel, Attune with Aether, Rogue Refiner, Ramunap Ruins, Rampaging Ferocidon (the last of which was unbanned). These cards are mostly jokes in formats like Legacy or Modern. In fact, the only of these cards that see real play in Modern are Reflector Mage (in Humans) and Emrakul the Promised End (sideboard card in Tron), and they're far from the best cards in their respective decks.

    Why? Because the problem with Standard then was they forgot to print decent answers to cards. Except for maybe Felidar Guardian, basically everything could have easily been handled without bannings had you just added a few answers to the card pool.

    Now let's go into 2019, when the FIRE philosophy you mentioned started. Here are the cards banned in 2019 and 2020 in Standard: Field of the Dead, Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Fires of Invention, Cauldron Familiar, Growth Spiral, Teferi Time Raveler, and Wilderness Reclamation.

    You see a noticeable boost in the power level of these cards. Sure, some of them are still cards that are basically nonentities in Modern or Legacy, but then you have cards like Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, and Teferi--cards that saw strong play in formats like Modern or Legacy, some of them even getting bans. These things reshaped the older formats. These cards aren't getting banned in Standard because they were just dropped into a Standard environment that didn't have proper answers; they're getting banned because they're crazy powerful irrespective of answers. (though it's possible that if they had included any kind of nonbasic land hate in Standard, Field of the Dead might have skated by)

    So even if the number of bans haven't changed much (they've gone up, though), the cards being banned are markedly different. It's no longer a matter of "whoops, we should've maybe included a Pithing Needle effect to handle this!" anymore, it's "whoops, maybe we should have not ever printed this card in any way whatsoever."
    The shift came when Chris Cocks became the new president.

  15. #35
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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by jmlima View Post
    It's a leak, so take it with a pinch of salt, but Thoughtseize, RiP and collected Company, amongst others, are about to debut in Historic:



    Source: https://mtgazone.com/amonkhet-remast...ena-pre-patch/
    Interesting! Thoughtseize should only be good for the format, same with access to RiP. Anger of the Gods will help a lot, I am only worried about Coco warping the format here.

  16. #36

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    You know, looking back and thinking further on it, I don't think it's wrong to pinpoint 2019 as a shift.

    Sure, prior to that, cards were being banned at Standard at a very surprising rate. But look at the cards that were being banned in 2017 and 2018. Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage, Emrakul the Promised End, Felidar Guardian, Aetherworks Marvel, Attune with Aether, Rogue Refiner, Ramunap Ruins, Rampaging Ferocidon (the last of which was unbanned). These cards are mostly jokes in formats like Legacy or Modern. In fact, the only of these cards that see real play in Modern are Reflector Mage (in Humans) and Emrakul the Promised End (sideboard card in Tron), and they're far from the best cards in their respective decks.

    Why? Because the problem with Standard then was they forgot to print decent answers to cards. Except for maybe Felidar Guardian, basically everything could have easily been handled without bannings had you just added a few answers to the card pool.

    Now let's go into 2019, when the FIRE philosophy you mentioned started. Here are the cards banned in 2019 and 2020 in Standard: Field of the Dead, Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Fires of Invention, Cauldron Familiar, Growth Spiral, Teferi Time Raveler, and Wilderness Reclamation.

    You see a noticeable boost in the power level of these cards. Sure, some of them are still cards that are basically nonentities in Modern or Legacy, but then you have cards like Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, and Teferi--cards that saw strong play in formats like Modern or Legacy, some of them even getting bans. These things reshaped the older formats. These cards aren't getting banned in Standard because they were just dropped into a Standard environment that didn't have proper answers; they're getting banned because they're crazy powerful irrespective of answers. (though it's possible that if they had included any kind of nonbasic land hate in Standard, Field of the Dead might have skated by)

    So even if the number of bans haven't changed much (they've gone up, though), the cards being banned are markedly different. It's no longer a matter of "whoops, we should've maybe included a Pithing Needle effect to handle this!" anymore, it's "whoops, maybe we should have not ever printed this card in any way whatsoever."
    I agree with almost everything.
    The only thing I disagree on is the "forgetting to print answers".

    To me it's completely obvious that was by choice since certain groups were always complaining about removal/counters being too good.
    As result, answers were either way too expensive or to narrow to do anything to achieve anything.
    IMO this especially noticeable from ~Kaladesh to Dominaria.

    Afterwards they started to give players a few more tools - one could argue in some cases too many - to handle things.
    However, in turn they raised the power level of threads to compensate.
    Especially green has been completely warped in recent years.
    Since it took them more than 2 decades to give a color tools to handle anything that isn't an artifact or enchantment, green cards have been pushed quite hard.
    This also affected UG cards which has been basically the worst 2 color combo since it could only bounce since counters got massively shafted.

    Other cards I'm pretty sure are deliberately powerful/overpowered.
    Some are advertisements or strategies they just want to see played, so they make sure they are competitively viable.
    While this is understandably from a design standpoint - who would want to design a mechanic/theme just to have it be played in casual at most - they still haven't figured out how to do that right, since they tend to also omit answers to these.
    In the case of Companions, Underworld Breach, and Fires, I would claim they just print those to test the waters.
    These cards help them to find out how far they can push stuff, both in terms of actual brokenness as well as community acceptance.
    If it turns out these cards are too much, they just say just ban them and go on.
    I expect Winota to be one of the next cards this will happen to.

    I appreciate that they try to print better cards to not have only grizzly bears in the meta, but in recent years they have basically thrown away all restraint.
    Any player with a bit experience will tell you immediately that 3feri or Underworld Breach are broken.
    Companions being boring should be obvious at the latest after a few play tests.
    Not to mention that deck restrictions are a terrible design space.
    After 27 years they should know what they should know better.
    Magic isn't a video game which can be shipped broken and then patched after the community beta tested it.
    But if they want to become Hearthstone, then who knows, maybe they will "patch" cards in the future.

  17. #37
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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    One quick thing on UG; I think it‘s more accurate to say that it never really quite came together. There is little that is more powerful than a color concept of “I can untap, you can‘t.“ This is a pretty dangerous concept to entertain, and it would have been far easier to overshoot than to get just right. Wilderness Rec is a patently bad card (by legacy standards), but the fact that they had to ban it shows how careful you need to be with tap/untap asymmetry.

    In terms of the worst color combo, I think UR and its near-complete inability to deal with a Goyf is arguably a bigger hole than green missing a 1-mana removal spell.

  18. #38

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    I think this is the first time I've ever seen a thread get five straight comments mod-erased and not end with the thread getting locked.

  19. #39

    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    The moderators saw a challenge in the thread title, and I would say they lived up to expectations.

  20. #40
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    Re: Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

    Don't think we won't destroy everything! Just kidding, it was centered around 1 user in particular, so we made a clean sweep of the nonsense.

    The biggest issue is it's just *another* ban discussion thread. The main thread is rough enough, we don't need another drama-fest. This one has mostly been courteous so it's allowed to live (for now.)
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