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Thread: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

  1. #21

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Archive Trap land-enabelers, which one is best? Field of Ruin or Ghost Quarter?

    Field of Ruin
    - Non-conditional: forces opponent to search.
    - Activation cost: 1 mana. You do need 2 lands to activate it, but considered that you get 1 land back untapped.
    - Targets: non-basic land.
    - Triggers our Crabs, landfall.
    - Side note: Replaces itself.

    Ghost Quarter
    - Conditional: opponent may choose not to search.
    - Activation cost: 0 mana.
    - Triggers our Crabs, landfal, if you target your own land.
    - Target: all lands.

    Let's discuss!



    //
    Note on FoR added later: Triggers our Crabs, landfall.
    Last edited by t000; 09-20-2020 at 07:42 AM.
    Regards

  2. #22

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by t000 View Post
    Archive Trap land-enabelers, which one is best? Field of Ruin or Ghost Quarter?

    Field of Ruin
    - Non-conditional: forces opponent to search.
    - Activation cost: 1 mana. You do need 2 lands to activate it, but considered that you get 1 land back untapped.
    - Targets: non-basic land.
    - Side note: Replaces itself.

    Ghost Quarter
    - Conditional: opponent may choose not to search.
    - Activation cost: 0 mana.
    - Target: all lands.

    Let's discuss!
    IMO Ghost Quarter is strictly better since it doesn't cost anything.
    Field doesn't come online until round 3 which might be a little late.
    If you're desperate for crab triggers you can also QC your own land for an additional landfall.
    Even if they don't search you got a Strip Mine which is fine.
    If you're lucky, they don't run any basics or you have already milled them.

    I would just run a 1-off FoR with Crop Rotation in case you need to force a search.

  3. #23

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    IMO Ghost Quarter is strictly better since it doesn't cost anything.
    Field doesn't come online until round 3 which might be a little late.
    If you're desperate for crab triggers you can also QC your own land for an additional landfall.
    Even if they don't search you got a Strip Mine which is fine.
    If you're lucky, they don't run any basics or you have already milled them.

    I would just run a 1-off FoR with Crop Rotation in case you need to force a search.
    I play UB Mill (also played UW Mill) in Legacy for years now (just a few times a year for fun) in local tournaments.
    Here are my thoughts of the archetype and cards.



    * Ghost Quarter Vs Field of Ruin:

    Ghost Quarter seems better but it is not (is only good if you are facing some land that you must destroy as soon as possible, for example Depths).

    1) If you start in hand with archive you don't need it, and you want to start with U or B on the table.
    2) If you fire archive track at the beginning of the game, your opponents will search the next 2/3 turns because you already trapped them.
    3) If the game takes more than 4 turns, the opponent won't search anymore, even preferring that you strip mine them, because even with small pressure should be enough for them

    So you need the Field of Ruin for "late game" to force them search and usually the fact that you need to tap 2 lands isn't a problem.



    * 8 Crab:

    Despite that Crabs are definitely our best mill card, i think that the deck to proper work cant support them, i would say between 5/6 Crabs.



    * Turbo Mill Vs Control Mill:

    Turbo mill seems to be superior, but it is not.
    Legacy over the years changed from a format that had "unfair graveyard decks" to "unfair graveyard decks" + "value graveyard decks", and now exists Hogaak, Reanimator, Dredge, Snapcaster Mage, Arcanist, Uru, Cling to Dust... so just filling opponent grave fast and blindly and not killing them in the next turn we are offering a lot of value to their gameplan, and surgical extraction is not enough to stop everything. So a more "Control" version of the deck is superior.



    * Burn Vs Mill (Bad Burn):

    Fair Mill is compared with burn being "bad burn", and the comparison is right but not how people think, usually saying Mill is bad because it has to do "60 damage", but if that comparison was true, all decks where bad, because infect only needs 10 damage to Win. The real comparison here that is needed to be made is, almost all cards of Burn do damage to Players, Planeswalkers and Creatures (affecting the board state), and the other cards support the archetype, but in mill, all our "BIG" mill cards (Glimpse the Unthinkable / Archive Trap) only do damage to players not affecting the board state, and worse maybe giving resources to our opponents.
    As everyone also knows, our best mill card is the Crab and that is why everyone is happy with the print of another crab, but why he is our better mill card???
    1) Recursive source of damage
    2) Can slow down creatures/ and chump lethal
    3) To do damage, we don't need to play spells only lands
    So if we understand how Crab is the best, we only need more sources of damage that can at least do 2 of the 3 things above, and 2 of the best cards that do that are "Sphinx's Tutelage" and "Ashiok, Dream Render", those 2 fill 2 roles (Recursive source of damage , and "we don't need to play spells for them work") , but they also have a 3rd role, "Ashiok, Dream Render" (disallowing opponent search, negating grave value, and fighting our worst nightmare "emrakul the aeons torn" and similar effects), and "Sphinx's Tutelage" can give us loot effect, and insane turns of milling (if you play a Visions of Beyond and after a Brainstorm, they will mill 12 Cards (or even more) and will have a full and filtered grip).

    All of this to say, we should stop thinking as "Burn players" and think as control players.



    * Not Good enough cards:

    Glimpse the Unthinkable, Archive Trap, Mesmeric Orb, Fraying Sanity, aren't cards for legacy play style, and Brain Freeze definitely not for fair mill. It feels powerful effects (and they are) but when your opponent cast a "Veil of Summer", or a Daze, or a Snapcaster Mage to a Spell pierce .....ouch.... and having to deal with even a small pressure, milling 20 cards won't give us the victory.



    * Visions of Beyond (To be or not To be):

    I have mixed feelings about it.
    I LOVE ANCESTRAL RECALL AND I WANT TO PLAY 4, and when it is a ancestral recall it's so good, but, having a cantrip worst than Thought Scour is so badddddd. And all of my gameplay with mill, i tried several numbers and to me they should be only 1 or 2 main deck, giving us room for Brainstorms and Ponders that are more impactful early game.



    I don't know exactly how the deck should be, to be at least respected, but definitely the deck should go a route of more controlling, and card advantage.
    I haven't tried out yet a version more focused in Control, but i'm thinking on running something like this:


    11 CREATURES
    4 Ruin Crab
    1 Hedron Crab
    3 Baleful Strix
    2 Brazen Borrower
    1 Snapcaster Mage

    25 INST. AND SORC.
    4 Fatal Push
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    1 Drown in the Loch
    2 Collective Brutality
    1 Visions of Beyond
    1 Cling to Dust
    1 Set Adrift

    5 OTHERS
    3 Ashiok, Dream Render
    2 Sphinx's Tutelage

    19 LANDS
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Wasteland
    1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
    1 Cephalid Coliseum
    1 Nephalia Drownyard


    * Weird card choices:
    - Nephalia Drownyard: Bad card, Costs 3 to activate, but playing a more control deck we will be reactive, so.... end of opponent turn we can recursively mill 3. Who knows!!!!
    - Cephalid Coliseum: I played "Sphinx's Tutelage" before in Legacy UB Mill, and at Turn 5 i milled 42 Cards against a 3 color deck (Brainstorm + Ponder + Visions of Beyond + Gitaxian Probe), and Cephalid Coliseum allows us in moments of despair to find a new hand, or mill 6 or more with Tutelage, or even kill the opponent without passing the turn, may be important against Burn?!?! Who knows!!!!
    - Wasteland: I prefer to cut opponent land than give him a basic, and since i'm not playing Traps i don't care of the opponent searching
    - Set Adrift: Not a good card, but the fact that we can mill a permanent that was in play may be relevant.
    - Cling to Dust: A catch all (Life, Draw, Grave hate) good effect, maybe a very support card for the archetype
    - Drown in the Loch: There are times in the game that we need a counter and have removal or we have removal and need counter. Already tried it, and it wasn't that bad, but i think that shouldn't be more than 1/2.

  4. #24
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Hey nice thread !

    I've been playing "Tempo Mill" since a few years now with good results.
    I've been posting quite a few things (runs, list, feelings, experience) on another forum below:

    http://www.legacy-france.org/index.p...pic=14508&st=0

    For non native french speaker, google translate is your friend. The list is also in my signature.

    Eventually, when they unleashed another crab I was thrilled.


    Here is my latest build:

    4 Island
    2 Swamp
    2 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Field of Ruin

    4 Hedron Crab
    4 Ruin Crab
    3 Baleful Strix

    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Visions of Beyond
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Fatal Push
    4 Archive Trap
    1 Drown in the Loch

    4 Ponder
    1 Dead Drop

    SB: 3 Thoughtseize
    SB: 3 Extirpate
    SB: 3/4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
    SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
    SB: 2 Flusterstorm
    SB: 1/2 Reanimate
    SB: 1/2 Spot/Mass removal

    In the past, reward came from the fact that I was playing 2 potential kills (Mill and Jace's phantasm).
    I believe with the current meta, playing the intial "Esper" build might not be a bad decision but it's a long time since I tweaked it...

    I still think "Tempo" is the way to play mill decks (I've been trying to make Turbo/Control Mill work for decades without real success)

    You have almost everything needed to make a good tempo deck with the tools in it:

    4 BS
    4 Ponder
    4 FOW
    4 Daze

    I traded wasteland away for Ruins to help triggering Traps (it does make a world of difference against brown/mono colored decks). Eventually Ruins are no Wasteland and their activation cost is sometimes "so so" but the ability to screw one color should not be scorn at all because when milling your oppo, you can definitely screw one entire color from his deck and having the ability to nuke their last land producing that particular color is bonker (won a quarter final by screwing one color of Miracle).

    Daze is also not so bad midgame unlike usual tempo decks because at least you can use it for crab food.

    Traps is the most powerful and useless card in the pack. The ability to rip your oppo of half of his library without losing any cards in hand is...wow (2 trap +1 vision).
    Did I lose games starting with 3 traps in hands ? Yes
    Did I win a game with 4 traps in hands ? Yes
    Did I win games with hard casting Trap for lethal ? Many, so many.

    Playing 12 do nothing cards (Traps & crabs) demand to play 4 visions. Do not try less. Will you waste sometimes 1 or 2 visions just to draw 1 card ?-> yes...(shit happens and it is not chrismas land all day everyday)


    Few golden rules:
    - Playing "draw go" is playing your game (1/52 or 53 to go).
    - You don't protect the queen (crabs) at all cost. If it has to die, it dies. You counter what kills you.
    - Don't play your crabs unless you can profit right away.
    - Don't play all lands you have in hand, it can be used later to trigger crabs (like a Tempo deck should anyway)
    - This new build is a loss against any Emrakul deck MD. 1 game on 100, you might be able to kill him with strix but I would usually recommend to go G2 right away.

    Speaking of SB strategies, I have been here and there and I can guarantee that 90 % of the time people will pack more removal against your deck -> just go the opposite and pack more mill effect (Glimpse). Eventually, you transform into a turbo mill kind of deck. Playing 3 or 4 has to be assessed (I don't have enough data sample to choose and I like having more SB options).

    Any questions, feel free to shoot, I'll try my best to share my experience.

    Have fun and "mill" your way out !

    Ralf

  5. #25

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    stuff
    Traps & Crabs is good candidate for the deck name.

    On topic:

    If I would play mill, my list would probably look similar.
    There are some things I'm curious about.

    Is Strix really good?
    I know it cantrips and can be a removal but I'm not sure if it's worth it to give opposing removal targets.

    Your version is also super reliant on making crabs stick since you only mill with trap otherwise which seems wrong to me.
    Especially if you run 4 Visions I would play at least some Glimpses.

    You don't play symmetry so you also can't make them search besides the Ruins which take some time to come online.

    If you lose as you said against spaghetti monsters, wouldn't it make sense to pack some Surgicals main?
    At that point you probably want Symmetry to find them.

    I agree with the post board plan of adding more mill but at that point I would side out the crabs.
    Which again leads me to the point of the Strixes which seem even worse in that context.

  6. #26
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    If you do build around Crabs instead of "spell-based" Turbo mill (Archive Trap), 3-4x Cavern of Souls @ Crab seems good. You want your Crabs to resolve and you don't want to crack fetches before casting them, so leading off Cavern seems good. The only downside is you can't Daze but the matches you want Daze more are the ones where you won't need Cavern protection as much anyway, so it just boils down to sequencing.

    If you play Traps, then Scheming Symmetry is the best Archive Trap enabler and also helps you chain into more Archive Traps or Visions so you hit critical threat density to win. I think if you play Archive Trap at all, you want some Scheming Symmetry. Otherwise Archive Trap is too conditional and too easy for them to play around. Field of Ruin is an enabler but extremely slow in Legacy. It's a slow mana-hungry enabler for Trap (can't do other stuff that turn), and it's too slow to police the lands you want to police like Dark Depths, Ancient Tomb, Cavern of Souls, Gaea's Cradle, or even just color-screwing the opponent early. Strip Mine is a good card guys. This is the only deck in any format where you can play 4x Strip Mine. Why not?

    To avoid the opponents getting value from your milling, you could run something like Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace. But at that point, every mill spell becomes worse than Helm of Obedience + lands. I think the biggest problem with mill is Brain Freeze, Grindstone and Helm of Obedience just do it better, with the latter 2 taking up much fewer card slots for the mill plan. Even with the UB control mill strategy, you could be playing UW RipHelm Counterbalance control and have more control game because your deck needs fewer mill slots to win.

  7. #27
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Traps & Crabs is good candidate for the deck name.

    On topic:

    If I would play mill, my list would probably look similar.
    There are some things I'm curious about.

    Is Strix really good?
    I know it cantrips and can be a removal but I'm not sure if it's worth it to give opposing removal targets.

    Your version is also super reliant on making crabs stick since you only mill with trap otherwise which seems wrong to me.
    Especially if you run 4 Visions I would play at least some Glimpses.

    You don't play symmetry so you also can't make them search besides the Ruins which take some time to come online.

    If you lose as you said against spaghetti monsters, wouldn't it make sense to pack some Surgicals main?
    At that point you probably want Symmetry to find them.

    I agree with the post board plan of adding more mill but at that point I would side out the crabs.
    Which again leads me to the point of the Strixes which seem even worse in that context.
    Density, balance and smart plays are the key.
    I used to play 4 crabs & 4 traps and half of my wins came from "Mill" which was even less than what this list has to offer.
    Even if a crab or two dies, ALWAYS make sure you made profit out of it (one fetch is 6 milled cards) -> playing a land a turn doesn't go on the stack. So if you resolve a crab with a land in hand, you should mill at least 3 cards.
    Don't forget that you can "pack" fetch on the board waiting for more crabs. This also tricks a lot your oppo if he has a spot removal in hand. Because you are likely to play many other lands before he decides to kill the say crab which you'll respond to, by fetching when the removal is on the stack. 1 crab, 2 crabs ...etc + a fetch is very very scary (my best was 3 crabs + 2 fetchs. I won that game :p).
    Sometimes, of course, you will crack the fetch ASAP to get rid of cards left by your oppo after his ponder (no shuffle) for example.
    But if you pack too much mill cards (glimpse), you'll endup losing more than winning because you can mill 45 cards and still die to an uncheck tarmogoyf...
    Why ?
    Apart from 4 Traps, you don't mill a deck with an opening of 7 cards in hand. A good player will likely let you mill his deck and only counter the real threat; be it the last mill card or a vision.

    So what you want is: make your oppo protect his threats with counters so that you can overrun him afterwards.

    This is a "threshold" race somehow:
    The first thresh is 20 cards to activate the ancestral mode. Once it is activated and you resolve a vision, even if 3 crabs died, you should be in a good shape.
    In my Esper list, the first thresh was 10 cards.

    Strix is here because, as I said, you are the ultimate control deck even as a tempo one (the one that kills with the library). "Draw-go" in this deck kills. Period.
    You could compared it to a Pox deck if you like because no matter what, you'll make your opponent play with limited ressources (card left in his library).
    That means that alike Tempo, the board matters a lot. Eventually your oppo will run short of threats. Strix is there to force your opponent to dispose of him:
    - spot removal (but if he used it on crabs...)
    - forcing the way with multiple threats and losing one in the process
    - cantrip (hard to find a CMC 2 spot removal that cantrip)
    Also, it is a small insurance against huge flying demon (and I didn't want to play more spot removal that doesn't cantrip).
    All you want is buying "turns".

    I tested extensively "Scheming" and even if the card enable christmas land; it does have a few drawbacks:
    - You need a mill effect to profit
    - If your mill card is countered after playing Scheming, you may concede...
    - It is pure CDA ( and I already consider the 8 crabs + 4 traps as CDA) -> definitely too much
    - 90 % of the time, scheming was for a vision. 10 % -> removal / trap.
    - Worst topdeck ever when hellbent. Mark my word.
    You don't always need to be agressive with your traps. And if you were, most oppo will be on guard (no longer fetching after reaching enough mana to cast his spells).
    A midgame "ruins" followed by 'x' Trap is working very well because you'll have time to analyse his graveyard and choose the color you want to try ripping of him.
    Also "Scheming" doesn't trigger "crabs". Ruins does. Like a fetch and like a boss; Crabs need lands, not too many but enough to abuse (Daze also participates to the war effort). Hard to find a good balance between crabs and enough lands to activate their effect on a constant basis while not letting you draw land, land, land when your oppo goes by runner, runner, runner...

    Forget about surgical MD. The card is crap (CDA and very sketchy). It does come in post G1 against relevant MUs.
    Don't get me wrong, I accept losing G1 to Emrakul if my chances are 60%+ or above G2 & G3. Be competitive and concede fast as soon as you see Emmy.
    You should have plenty time to try winning G2 & G3.

    Anyway take everything I said as "personal experience". I played/play this archetype a lot but I'm not here to convince anyone that my list is the way to go.

    Take the list (which is clearly not final but more of "a good start with"), playtest at least 10/20 games with it, get a good grip and share your feedbacks.
    Practise magic > mental magic (by far).

    Ralf.

  8. #28

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    @Zoid: I totally agree with Ralf about the Strix, they are good "enough" to be in the deck

    @Ralf: Before when i was talking about control i really was talking about Tempo , usually i put both on the same bag (my bad). And i am agreeing also with your deck choice, it's seems solid and despite of some differences between mine (above) and yours i agree that an approach like yours is the most viable.

    Today went to my LGS and tried the version i posted above (with some changes), and despite the results weren't good (0-3) after analyzing individual match ups and game choices, the more i am convinced that a more Tempo version is an actual good route.

    Game results

    Round 1 Vs Dark Depths (Lost 1-2)
    - Game 1: i should have mull but didn't, and the deck slapped me. Gave me lands (all blue and no color early game) despite doing ponders and in desperation mode a lock brainstorm (then milled myself with Ashiok to break the lock). Eventually lost to the 20/20 (Opponent won with 17 cards em library, eventually slam a Ashiok and did some Crab activation's)
    - Game 2: Plan worked as intended, mill him to "death" almost entirely with Ashioks, and Strix protected Ashiok perfectly!
    - Game 3: My opp goes mana ramp with Mox Diamond and turn 3 (When i'm tapped due to Strix value) he slams a "Choke" with one land untapped and i had a Daze on hand (did the Daze to have an untapped Underground). I lost the game with that "Choke", because my plays where Turn 1 Fetch + Underground + Fatal Push on Hexmage, 2nd Turn Island + Strix to find more protection against the combo. And my opp Wastelands killed me. Another problem was that i changed the list a bit and instead of taking Wastelands i took Ghost Quarters (BIG BAD MISTAKE). And doing Quarters on Depths and giving a land is card disadvantage. (He was left with 15 Cards in lybrary)


    Round 2 Vs UR Delver (Lost 0-2)
    - Game 1: He starts very very very slow, but he knows that i'm playing mill. He only played a threat at turn 5. In those turns he screwed me 2 lands, 1 with stifle and another with Wasteland. I lost the game (damn it felt so baddddd), with 1 Crab on the table, i was at 5 Life and my opponent had 6 1/1 Attackers killing me (He was at 0 cards on the library. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH)
    - Game 2: Mull to 6 and keep a "Sketchy hand" but could do wonders, Stifle + Wasteland + Daze at the beginning set me back that i couldn't never totally recover (Opp had 30 cards on Lybrary)


    Round 2 Vs Snowko (Lost 0-2)
    - Game 1: My opp card advantaged me, and i was totally greedy and i lost because of that big mistake at start of the game. (More that 30 cards in grave)
    - Game 2: I played better (again his card advantage was a little better than mine), but i did a great fight (my opp had 7 cards left in library)


    Conclusion

    About the Games:
    1) I'M A TERRIBLE CONTROL PLAYER! I did a bunch of mistakes that caused me troubles or even big set backs. If i understood better tempo/control decks (i will one day, maybe) it would had better results.
    2) Almost all the matches (those where i didn't make crucial mistakes) i was missing a "Oooooomph" to win the game (Archive Trap would have finished in my favor... hummmm).


    About the Card choices:
    1) 3 Ghost Quarter - Terrible card, having to give them a land and being a land behind was so bad. Definitely Field of Ruins are much better.
    2) 2 Brazen Borrower - Where Ok, did their job specially against Dark Depths.
    3) 1 Snapcaster Mage - He is definitely very good, having access to an replay card and has an ambush viper is very good.
    4) 3 Daze - They are good in this strategy, probably 4 are even better.
    5) 1 Drown in the Loch - A weird card with Ashiok, but when in need we call mill ourselves with Hedron Crab to put it online, Very versatile card, Ok.
    6) 2 Collective Brutality - Very versatile card, they did what i needed, solid card, but maybe will go to sideboard.
    7) 1 Visions of Beyond - It is very bad with Ashiok, and because of that did nothing all games (But it was the expected).
    8) 1 Cling to Dust - I'm happy with it, a good support card, for life or cantrip. Did OK, but no more than 1.
    9) 1 Set Adrift - Change it last minute for 1 Strix. It is a bad card and i didn't missed it all games, also it uses the same resources than cling to dust, and definitely cling to dust is much better.
    10 3 Ashiok, Dream Render - Oh my GOD they are monsters! This card is very powerfull and pretty good. They where my main milling condition ALL Games, Crabs only lived for 1 or 2 turns (if they weren't countered). But maybe should go to Sideboard to have "Visions of Beyond" full power on main to not loose the card advantage against control/tempo decks. VERY POWERFUL CARD and we can entirely use it.
    11 2 Sphinx's Tutelage - Never activated them, or where Countered or destroyed without any activation ... The "Oooooomph" that we missed all games, probably replacing them with Traps.
    12) 1 Cephalid Coliseum - Used it once in desperation mode (and against Choke was the Island that we could untap) , didn't did what i was looking for, but did it job, giving me one more shot! Ok.
    13) 1 Nephalia Drownyard . oh my GOD!!! The card is bad, i know. I played it 3 times, did no activation with it, BUT it took Wastelands instead of my Undergrounds like magnet. I'm trying it again.


    My Thoughts:

    Being Tempo/Control worked like a charm, milling almost Only with Ashioks and a few activation's with Crabs.... oh yeah i like it. But after analyzing what failed or could be better, a version more similar to @Ralph seems better.
    One big notice is that i suffered against UR Delver and those stupid Tokens.

  9. #29

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    I think it is really helpful to translate milling into damage. Given that our deck doesn't kill before turn 3 in most cases, our opponent has 50 cards or less that we have to get rid of. If we take 50, milling 1 card equals to 1/50*20 =0.4 damage per milled card.

    For our 3 best mill spell that means:
    Archive Trap deals 13*0.4=5.2 damage for 0 mana, easily the best Mill spell in the deck and better than any burn spell.
    Hedron Crab and Ruin Crab normally at least 6*0.4=2.4 damage for 1 mana. They are absolute must answer cards. Why wouldn't you play 8 of them? Just because they can be removed? Even when they get killed your opponent spent a card to get rid of them and still took at least 2.4 damage. In burn you also play Goblin Guide although it can be removed.
    4 x Brain Freeze normally deals between 9* 0.4=3.6 and 18* 0.4=7.2 damage for 2 mana.

    My starting point with the new crab would be:

    UBr Mill

    4 x Force of Will
    4 x Daze

    4 x Brainstorm
    4 x Ponder
    4 x Visions of Beyond

    4 x Archive Trap
    4 x Hedron Crab
    4 x Ruin Crab
    4 x Brain Freeze

    4 x Surgical Extraction

    3 x Scheming Symmetry

    3 x Ghost Quarter
    4 x Polluted Delta
    3 x Flooded Strand
    2 x Scalding Tarn
    4 x Island
    1 x Swamp



    SB:
    4 x Leyline of the Void
    2 x Flusterstorm
    1 x Toxic Deluge
    ...


    With 8 Crabs 4 Daze seems logical to make as many land drops as possible.
    Not sure about Surgical Extraction though...needs to be tested. Could be good in combination with Brain Freeze and as a pseudo Cabal Therapy but could also turn out to be too weak.
    With Scheming Symmetry you can also think about playing Terminus or Reforge the Soul as 1-ofs main deck. That would weaken the mana base though.

  10. #30
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum View Post
    I think it is really helpful to translate milling into damage. Given that our deck doesn't kill before turn 3 in most cases, our opponent has 50 cards or less that we have to get rid of. If we take 50, milling 1 card equals to 1/50*20 =0.4 damage per milled card.

    For our 3 best mill spell that means:
    Archive Trap deals 13*0.4=5.2 damage for 0 mana, easily the best Mill spell in the deck and better than any burn spell.
    Hedron Crab and Ruin Crab normally at least 6*0.4=2.4 damage for 1 mana. They are absolute must answer cards. Why wouldn't you play 8 of them? Just because they can be removed? Even when they get killed your opponent spent a card to get rid of them and still took at least 2.4 damage. In burn you also play Goblin Guide although it can be removed.
    4 x Brain Freeze normally deals between 9* 0.4=3.6 and 18* 0.4=7.2 damage for 2 mana.
    I like this direction best but it does not seem to be what others want.

    I think Mill-Control has structural flaws due to lack of resources to play either control or mill properly, but Mill-Tempo could be viable at racing. From the many games I've tested with UB mill vs tier 1 and tier 2 decks, what you are doing seems like a strong way to go.

    Archive Trap + Symmetry is just the most efficient way to mill.

    Daze + 8 crab seems strong. Daze also makes Ghost Quarter better, giving you value for running 4x Strip Mine. It puts the opponent in a risky position where taking the land will likely turn on Traps and Visions but not taking the land could mana screw them or make them weak to Daze.

    Brain Freeze is strong, especially with Surgical and Archive Traps. Although it can do worse than Glimpse, it can do a lot more and is also an instant (which means you can build storm from the opponent's turn). It's not unreasonable to get off a Brain Freeze for 9-18 at EOT, after the opponent has cast spells, a possible counter war, your own cantrips, and 0cc cards like Archive Trap and Surgical. I regularly cast natural Brain Freeze for 9-15 at EOT in Jeskai Breach and that didn't have 0cc spells (other than Force).

    Thoughtseize might be good in the SB, to have a proactive way to interact with combo decks' hands and then Surgical the piece away for good.

    Some creature removal needs to be in the 75, probably Eliminate due to the Oko meta. Maybe Bloodchief's Thirst for mana efficiency, which helps with overall tempo and building storm but can still kill walkers kicked.

    Edit: I had been recently testing this list below, which is very similar to yours. Main difference is Thoughtseize over Daze, and I hedged by running 2 copies of Glimpse. But I think your Daze is probably better synergy with the deck.


    //Crabs: 8 - duh
    4 Hedron Crab
    4 Ruin Crab

    //Mill: 12
    4 Archive Trap
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Brain Freeze
    2 Glimpse the Unthinkable

    //Support: 23
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Scheming Symmetry
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Visions of Beyond

    //Lands: 17
    3 Ghost Quarter
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Prismatic Vista
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    2 Underground Sea

  11. #31
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.


  12. #32
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Interesting.

    I'm a big fan of Mission Briefing for its interactions with Archive Trap, Force of Will and Daze, as well as just recurring cantrips.

    I also like 3 Visions over 4 copies, because it's terrible in the early game.

    So he doesn't play Symmetry or GQ, skips the Archive Trap enablers, and just hopes to catch them with luck or hedges with Glimpse?

    The one great thing about that list is it runs much less card disadvantage, so it should have an easier time playing a blue tempo game. Scheming Symmetry+ cantrip into Archive Trap is a great trick, but it does leave you at -2 cards and -2 mana without affecting the game state (just mill 13), while Glimpse is -2 mana and -1 cards for mill 10. Maybe it's just better to max out on Glimpse before using a topdeck tutor for Trap.

    Up to 12 gravehate effects postboard? Wow. I guess he really needs to beat their anti-hate.
    Last edited by FTW; 10-17-2020 at 09:04 PM.

  13. #33

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Interesting.

    I'm a big fan of Mission Briefing for its interactions with Archive Trap, Force of Will and Daze, as well as just recurring cantrips.

    I also like 3 Visions over 4 copies, because it's terrible in the early game.

    So he doesn't play Symmetry or GQ, skips the Archive Trap enablers, and just hopes to catch them with luck or hedges with Glimpse?

    The one great thing about that list is it runs much less card disadvantage, so it should have an easier time playing a blue tempo game. Scheming Symmetry+ cantrip into Archive Trap is a great trick, but it does leave you at -2 cards and -2 mana without affecting the game state (just mill 13), while Glimpse is -2 mana and -1 cards for mill 10. Maybe it's just better to max out on Glimpse before using a topdeck tutor for Trap.

    Up to 12 gravehate effects postboard? Wow. I guess he really needs to beat their anti-hate.
    Well, there are still 3 Symmetries to enable Traps.
    I guess it's a meta call.
    Nowadays the only decks that don't fetch are probably Chalice based.
    Most of the Chalice decks are probably slow enough to win with regular mill if you can counter Chalices and play through resistors.

    I find 1-off Burvac pretty random but I don't like 1-offs in general.

    Also note the complete lack of any removal besides red blasts.
    Probably do or die like Belcher is the way to go.

    I guess the graveyard hate is required if your game plan either is actively the same plan as your opponent's or they have main spaghetti monsters.
    Still not a fan of Ashiok though, she's just too expensive and cockblocks the traps (lol).

  14. #34
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Well, there are still 3 Symmetries to enable Traps.
    0 Symmetries. Check again. Surgical does not enable Traps.

    In my testing, once opponent knows what you're up to they avoid fetching as much as possible, or they will crack all fetches at once in one turn with FoW backup, or after they think you're out of Traps. They can sequence around Archive Trap since the deck has much less clock without it. It's not as reliable without some way to force them to search when you have 2 Traps ready.

    Lack of removal seems bad. Relying on only 8x counterspell as disruption turned out to be REALLY bad against Caverns-Vial decks in my testing. Mill can't even race Goblins anymore since Muxus and Snoop combo, so T1 Caverns is GG. I missed Ghost Quarter.

    It might have the same problem against Veil decks, or anyone just playing around Daze.


    Still not a fan of Ashiok though, she's just too expensive and cockblocks the traps (lol).
    Ashiok only blocks the opponent's effects not your forced searches (Symmetry, Ghost Quarter), though that list doesn't run any. I assume it gets boarded in when Traps get boarded out, e.g. against decks that don't fetch. In my testing that's a decent SB plan, giving you another grindy mill engine and GY hate when Traps are really bad.

  15. #35

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    0 Symmetries. Check again. Surgical does not enable Traps.

    In my testing, once opponent knows what you're up to they avoid fetching as much as possible, or they will crack all fetches at once in one turn with FoW backup, or after they think you're out of Traps. They can sequence around Archive Trap since the deck has much less clock without it. It's not as reliable without some way to force them to search when you have 2 Traps ready.

    Lack of removal seems bad. Relying on only 8x counterspell as disruption turned out to be REALLY bad against Caverns-Vial decks in my testing. Mill can't even race Goblins anymore since Muxus and Snoop combo, so T1 Caverns is GG. I missed Ghost Quarter.

    It might have the same problem against Veil decks, or anyone just playing around Daze.




    Ashiok only blocks the opponent's effects not your forced searches (Symmetry, Ghost Quarter), though that list doesn't run any. I assume it gets boarded in when Traps get boarded out, e.g. against decks that don't fetch. In my testing that's a decent SB plan, giving you another grindy mill engine and GY hate when Traps are really bad.
    I should really not post late at night when my bad reading comprehension is at its lowest.

    Anyway,
    If they don't fetch, isn't that also good since they're likely not doing much?
    I guess it then comes down to a counter war but I don't see any other way for this situation to resolve in an other way.
    Most deck don't win if too many of their key cards get countered, so I guess you just have to live with that.
    The issue with this deck is that the kill comes from amassing mill effects which have no or no positive impact on the board for you.

    Removal might be a meta call but I'm not sure if it's a good one.
    I would guess this deck is much better in a field of decks which rely on the combat step since you're likely helping every other deck by milling them.

    I'm aware that Ashiok only blocks opponent's searches but it still seems bad.
    If you have to take out your traps your much more reliant on crabs.
    Surgicals also don't work anymore.

    This deck concept just seems like a one trick pony like Belcher or Dredge while being more fragile and having less options.

  16. #36

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jofiel View Post
    I tried this list on paper last weekend and i was suprised. Unfortunatly i only could play 2 rounds.

    Lost 0-2 to 4cc snowko game 1 because i couldnt find one more mill card, game 2 i wasnt expecting my opponent had 15 counters, and i lost because of that.

    WIN 2-0 againts UR Delver, in race mode, racing against Arcanist and Delver and the deck performed like a charm. Had both games a bit of luck but being able to race them was amazing.

    It has potential.
    I will try it again.

    Edit: i had 1 Fraying Sanity instead of Bruvac, and won mr the second game against UR Delver, having 2 crabs + 2 fetch in play + 1 land in hand, milled 18+18 cards when he had 21 cards in library, i would lose the game if i didnt had it.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 9S using Tapatalk

  17. #37
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    I tried playing this and just went 0-5 against UR Delver. I got them down to 5 cards once, but usually lost with them at about 20 left.

    I even had explosive turns. Once I resolved double Archive Trap + double Surgical Extraction with FoW protection on their turn 2 fetch. The Surgicals even stripped 2 cards from their hand, but I still 6-for-3d myself and then lost to their remaining cards. This deck just has so much card disadvantage. Another game I cast double Glimpse and Archive Trap, but casting 2 Glimpses ate up my turn 2 and 3 so I couldn't do much else while opponent got far ahead on board and damage.

    I really needed Crab both for the extra mill and to block, but I couldn't stick a Crab long vs Bolts and Dazes. I got caught by Daze twice (e.g. T2 tap Island for Crab with fetchland in hand, get Dazed instead of mill 6).

    Not being able to interact with Dreadhorde Arcanist was a big problem. They could just flashback Bolts or Chain Lightnings for days. I think it's correct to use FoW aggressively on any dangerous early creature they try to resolve, which just seems like such a waste of resources in a deck already bleeding cards.

    There was another game where I could have used FoW pitching Visions or Glimpse to protect Crab, but I let Crab go thinking it would die to burn anyway and this way I don't 2-for-1 myself. Instead I tried to play out the mill spells and get card advantage from Visions, but that ate up so much tempo while I got raced. Maybe it was correct to protect Crab.

    I was having better results with the other build. I might need Fraying Sanity to have enough gas to race.

  18. #38

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.



    While the deck is certainly cute, I don't think it has a home in legacy.
    It's basically burn which doesn't have the ability to interact with the board by default if necessary nor can it have a board presence.
    To many effects are conditional or require setup.

    I think it can have a place in modern where it's not actively supporting the opponents game plan so often.
    Legacy seems to fast and disruptive.

    Maybe the bUG version I posted earlier might fare a bit better since it has access to Uro and Crop Rotation into Glacial Chasm in exchange for speed.
    Then again, you could just play either an actual control or lands deck which isn't based on crabs.

  19. #39

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I tried playing this and just went 0-5 against UR Delver. I got them down to 5 cards once, but usually lost with them at about 20 left.

    I even had explosive turns. Once I resolved double Archive Trap + double Surgical Extraction with FoW protection on their turn 2 fetch. The Surgicals even stripped 2 cards from their hand, but I still 6-for-3d myself and then lost to their remaining cards. This deck just has so much card disadvantage. Another game I cast double Glimpse and Archive Trap, but casting 2 Glimpses ate up my turn 2 and 3 so I couldn't do much else while opponent got far ahead on board and damage.

    I really needed Crab both for the extra mill and to block, but I couldn't stick a Crab long vs Bolts and Dazes. I got caught by Daze twice (e.g. T2 tap Island for Crab with fetchland in hand, get Dazed instead of mill 6).

    Not being able to interact with Dreadhorde Arcanist was a big problem. They could just flashback Bolts or Chain Lightnings for days. I think it's correct to use FoW aggressively on any dangerous early creature they try to resolve, which just seems like such a waste of resources in a deck already bleeding cards.

    There was another game where I could have used FoW pitching Visions or Glimpse to protect Crab, but I let Crab go thinking it would die to burn anyway and this way I don't 2-for-1 myself. Instead I tried to play out the mill spells and get card advantage from Visions, but that ate up so much tempo while I got raced. Maybe it was correct to protect Crab.

    I was having better results with the other build. I might need Fraying Sanity to have enough gas to race.
    Our strongest card here is definitly Crab, you need to maximize the crabs and protect them. If they turn 2 bolt our Crab is ok because they wont play an arcanist and we need turns against them.

    My gameplan was put as many crabs as i could find and maximize fetchs with them. I fight with Daze + Force of will (Pitching a Visions) to protect a Crab middle game, also played always brainstorm as fast as i could always in my opponents end turn to find more crabs and if i didnt find them, i would fetch, bit if i find a crab i wouldnt crack rhe fetch to have more mill. In game 1 i had 5 crabs on table, good brainstorms. Game 2 he spent all his burn on those crabs, so i stayed alive. Also always playing around daze for them to have dead cards is good, but we can always bring back a land for Crabs.

    It is a terrible matchup but with a bit of luck and enougth crabs winning is achieveble.

    Sent from my Redmi Note 9S using Tapatalk

  20. #40
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    As I said, imho, not playing any removal (aka Turbo Mill) isn't going to work on a large scale.
    Also not playing any wasteland/field effect while you are playing Daze isn't optimal.
    For me playing Turbo mill only tends to improve already good MUs, leaving you weaker to bad MUs (brown/mono colored decks, Dark depths deck, Delver decks)


    I went 3/1 last event with my list posted above.

    Lost 0/2 against Big Eldrazi (1 Emrakul). I thought extract effect would be good here, but I ended up fucked by Emrakul's trigger (not enough mill power to mill the entire deck twice).
    Won 2/1 against Dredge (I died G1 leaving him with 0 card left in his library)
    Won 2/1 against Grixis Delver (Strix and Fatal push bought enough time to kill him)
    Won 2/1 against Eldrazi aggro (Strix & Push saved the day again. Dead drop nailed the coffin)

    I was disappointed by "Drown in the Lock". I know playing 2 brown decks on 4 rounds isn't easy for the card but moving forward I think I want the 4th Strix in.
    I was also disappointed by "Extirpate". It doesn't deal with Emrakul's trigger. I'll be replacing those with Yixlid.
    Wasteland effect are too good to pass up. I'm also adjusting numbers (going to a 2/2 split with Field)

    Here is the new setup:

    3 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Field of Ruin
    2 Wasteland

    4 Hedron Crab
    4 Ruin Crab
    4 Baleful Strix

    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Visions of Beyond
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Fatal Push
    4 Archive Trap

    4 Ponder
    1 Dead Drop

    SB: 3 Thoughtseize
    SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer
    SB: 3 Glimpse the Unthinkable
    SB: 1 Flusterstorm
    SB: 1 Engineering Plague
    SB: 1 Massacre
    SB: 2 Brazen Borrower

    SB is not set in stone but at least the shape is taking form.
    Borrower is to better fight Chalice & Marit lage deck
    Yixlid should make Emrakul's deck sweat (and other GY based strategy). It doesn't deal with Reanimator though. Numbers might have to be tweaked going forward.


    Ralf

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