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Thread: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

  1. #1

    Welcome to the new mill: Holy Crab / Eight Crab

    ☆゜・。。・゜゜・。。・゜☆゜・。。・゜゜・。。・゜☆゜・。。・゜゜・。。・゜☆゜・。。・゜゜・。。・゜☆


    With the release of the new crab (Ruin Crab) from Zendikar Rising, is this the final pice we needed to lift Legacy Mill to top tier?


    (Source: mtggoldfish.com + wizards.com)

    I. Introduction
    II. History
    III. Card Choices
    IV. Decklist
    V. Sideboarding Guide
    VI. Matchup & Videos
    VII. Links & other Resources
    VIII. Contributors

    I. Introduction

    This is a currently work in progress.
    This thread is reserved for the mill deck: Holy Crab / Eight Crab (Ruin Crab & Hedron Crab). There are several deck builds out there taking advantage of graveyards and "milling-effects", and then doing damage and life loss with spells and creatures. This deck primer is dedicated to building a PURE milling deck, with primary focus on winning the game by milling your opponent to 0-zero cards. We are a dedicated team of MTG enthusiast working on this deck. Please join us in this thread and contribute to the final product. All types of suggestions are appreciated: Tips and thought will be credited in this primer

    The termonilogy.
    Milling is a Magic slang to describe the act of putting cards from a deck into another zone to deplete the card in the opponents library. Cards that mill the opponents deck normally put those cards into the graveyard, but exiling them or putting them into any other zone in the game can be counted as milling aswell. Milling can be a successful strategy due to the fact that a player who can not draw a card from his library when he is required to, due to the library not containing any cards any more, loses the game. The graveyard is a public zone, allow the mill player to see what he got rid of and making it easier to calculate what options the defending player still has available. (Source: fandom.com)

    From the Comprehensive Rules (August 7, 2020 - Double Masters)
    • 104.3c If a player is required to draw more cards than are left in their library, they draw the remaining cards and then lose the game the next time a player would receive priority. (This is a state-based action. See rule 704.)
    • 10/1/2009 The landfall ability triggers whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control for any reason. It triggers whenever you play a land, as well as whenever a spell or ability (such as Rampant Growth) causes you to put a land onto the battlefield under your control. It will even trigger when a spell or ability causes another player to put a land onto the battlefield under your control (as can happen with Yavimaya Dryad’s ability, for example).
    • 10/1/2009 When a land enters the battlefield under your control, each landfall ability of the permanents you control will trigger. You can put them on the stack in any order. The last ability you put on the stack will be the first one that resolves.
    Types of mill.
    To avoid misunderstanding while discussing this thread, we have chosen to divide the "mill-effect" into two main categories. Please try to use these two terminologies:
    ☆ Landfall-mill: making the opponent mill cards by activating the landfall trigger off our Crabs.
    ☆ Spell-mill: making the opponent mill cards by casting spells or other activated and triggered abilities.

    II. History

    Why is it called milling?
    Well, now we get to peek behind the scenes of Magic slang and see how it gets created. Most Magic slang comes about because a card gets released that does something that no other card had previously done in Magic. People wanting to talk about that ability tend to use the card name as a shorthand for the effect as it's the most obvious thing that connects to it. If there is a keyword or an ability word or even a word used in the title of multiple cards using this ability, then Wizards have done the job to help name this ability. Often, though, the cool thing starts on a single card. The card was named Millstone. In the beginning, you "millstoned" another player, but with time "millstone" became "mill" as "mill" is actually a word, and a verb at that, so it sounded better. Now, what does a millstone - either of a pair of stone wheels used to grind or crush things - have to do with putting cards from your library into your graveyard? The answer, I believe, is this. The library represents the mental capacity of the planeswaker. The hand is what they are currently focusing on mentally. If a spell is in your library, it is something you know and eventually you'll be able to recall it (a.k.a. draw it). Milling is a mental attack where you are going after knowledge inside the planeswalker's head. Ref the wording on Millstone: "More than one mage was driven insane by the sound of the Millstone relentlessly grinding away." Discard spells, by the way, are spells that attack the player's current thoughts: "Oops, did this blow to the head make you forget what you were about to do?". The word millstone can also mean a mental or emotional burden. The Antiquities designers Skaff Elias, Jim Lin, Dave Petty and Chris Page, and yes, back then much of the naming was done by the design teams, were being clever with wordplay. The name was both a real thing and a description of an emotional upheaval.

    Early days.
    The history of milling actually starts before Millstone was printed. Even in the beta testing of Magic, there were decks that won by running the opponent out of cards. In the deck that Charlie Catino played where he kept using Timetwisters to keep shuffling graveyards back into libraries. He would deck you by playing Swords to Plowshares to remove all your creatures from the game, thus shrinking your library so that he would eventually deck you. And yes, the original playtesters did truly playtest the game.

    No more cards in library?
    This brings up the first question about milling. Why did Richard Garfield make you lose the game when you ran out of cards in your library, known in Magic slang as "decking"? Any guesses? As with any good design, the reason is quite simple. It was the easiest answer to the question "What happens if I run out of cards?" Remember, barring Charlie's deck, most games back then that came to decking dod so because they ran long. The decking rule helped keep the long games from running any longer. Once an alternate way to win existed, players were soon attracted to it as a means of winning because well, that's what gamers do. In the early days, decking was a win condition for decks that prevented anything from happening. It was a way to win without having to devote a card to actually winning the game. All this changed though when Millstone came out in Antiquities. Instead of milling being a passive win condition, it became an active one. All of a sudden, a deck could aggressively mill the opponent. The Antiquities designers were nice enough to also give deck builders a tool to make sure that they weren't decked, a little artifact called Feldon's Cane. (Source: wizards.com + Mark Rosewater)

    III. Card Choices

    These are mentionable cards that are undergoing furious play testing:

    Artifact
    Helm of Obedience
    - Semi-conditional: needs Leyline for win con.
    - Averages 4-6 cards every time, as a non combo.
    - Alternative SB win con when SB in Leyline/RiP?
    Profane Memento
    Ensnaring Bridge
    Mesmeric Orb
    - Non-conditional, works every time.
    - Brutal against Elves and other stompy decks.
    Keening Stone

    Creature
    Hedron Crab
    - Our hero.
    Ruin Crab
    - Our hero.
    - Dodges hexproof by generalising targets "each opponent": Leyline/Veil etc.
    Vantress Gargoyle
    Jace's Phantasm
    Hedron Crab
    Thieves' Guild Enforcer
    Snapcaster Mage
    Phenax, God of Deception
    Walking Atlas

    Enchantment
    Instant
    Unexpectedly Absent
    Cling to Dust
    Crypt Incursion
    Into the Story
    Thwart
    Chain of Vapor
    Thought Scour
    Fatal Push
    Murderous Cut
    Brain Freeze
    Mission Briefing
    - Conditional: needs cards in GY.
    - Can become a 5th Glimpse the Unthinkable.
    - Makes Archive Trap and Surgical to be cast for "0".
    Brainstorm
    Counterspell
    Daze
    Archive Trap
    - Conditional: Opponent may avoid to search and you need to have it in hand when they search.
    - Potential a free 13-mill card. Lots of fetch and tutors in legacy.
    - You might mill away all fetch lands
    - Late game ist a 5CMC/1 CARD/13 card mill card.
    Drown in the Loch
    - Conditional: need cards in opponents graveyard to work.
    - The best of both worlds: counter and removal.
    - Synergi with the mill-concept. Can easily destroy high CMC creatures by turn 4-5.
    Visions of Beyond
    - Semi-conditional: needs 20 cards in ANY graveyard, but can still be used as a EOT card draw.
    - Card advantage.
    - This deck needs food (cards) in order to beat faster combo/tempo decks.
    - Synergi with the mill-concept. Its basically a "Ancestral Recall".
    Trapmaker's Snare
    Crypt Incursion
    Dream Twist
    - Non-conditional: works every time.
    - Card advantage
    - 6 mill for 3 mana.
    - Possible storm counter?
    Surgical Extraction
    - Conditional: combo cads need to be in GY.
    - With a fast-turning opponents GY, this is a good hate card against combo decks and opponents StP, AD and other creature removal.
    - Works great with big GY.
    - Great agaist Dredge/reanimator/loam decks. They are a bad mathc up for us, lets make it to our advantage.
    Path to Exile
    - Conditional: opponent may choose not to search.
    - Triggers Archive Trap.
    - Diss-synergi with surgical.

    Land
    Field of Ruin
    - Non-conditional: forces opponent to search.
    - Activation cost: 1 mana. You do need 2 lands to activate it, but considered that you get 1 land back untapped.
    - Targets: non-basic land.
    - Triggers Archive Trap.
    - Triggers our Crabs, landfall.
    - Side note: Replaces itself.
    Shelldock Isle
    Cavern of Souls
    Nephalia Drownyard
    Cephalid Coliseum
    Ipnu Rivulet
    Drownyard Temple
    Ghost Town
    Undiscovered Paradise
    Polluted Delta
    Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
    - Non-conditional: works every time.
    - Landfall trigger.
    - The non-tap activated ability makes this card dodges Wasteland/Bloodmoon/B2B etc. even if the card is tapped.
    - Landfall-mill synergi: Bounce, repeat for landfall trigger.
    Island
    Swamp
    Prismatic Vista
    - Non-conditional: works every time.
    - Fetch lands
    - Landfall trigger.
    Duskmantle, House of Shadow
    Ghost Quarter
    - Conditional: opponent may choose not to search.
    - Activation cost: 0 mana.
    - Triggers Archive Trap.
    - Target: all lands.
    - Triggers our Crabs, landfal, if you target your own land.

    Sorcery
    Council's Judgment
    Damnation
    Pilfered Plans
    Tome Scour
    Mind Funeral
    Scheming Symmetry
    - Non-conditional: works every time.
    - Triggers Archive Trap.
    - Synergi with Ashiok, Dream Render.
    - Opponent are forced to search.
    Glimpse the Unthinkable
    - Non-conditional, works every time.
    - Slow speed, sorcery.
    Haunting Echoes
    Bitter Ordeal
    Maddening Cacophony
    Supreme Verdict

    Planeswalker
    Ashiok, Dream Render
    - Non-conditional: works every time.
    - Stalls a lof of decks due to fetch lands and tutors in legacy. But again this keep opponent's do draw(mill) extra cards.
    - Dis-synergy with Archive Trap, Visions of Beyond ++ (?)
    - Gives us "extra-life" since the opponent most likely attacks Ashiok, instead for our life total.
    - Most cases we get 4-8 mill for 3 mana and stops opponents fetches for 1-2 turns, due to opponent attacking Ashiok.
    - Exile opponents library: good against Dredge, Reanimator, ANT, Goyf etc.
    - Note: only stops search effects controlled by the opponent. So Scheming Symmetry, PathE, Quarter works.
    Jace, Memory Adept
    - Non-conditional, works every time.
    - 5 CMC is heavy in Legacy.

    IV. Decklist

    The ORIGINAL Millstone deck, Michael Loconto, #1 prize Pro Tour in 1996.V. Sideboarding Guide

    Hexproof
    If your local meta has a lot of POX, Mill type decks there is a chance your opponent's SB in Leyline of Sanctity. Having 1 Tropical Island or Tundra main deck gives you access to Reverent Silence, Light of Hope, Allay, Feed the Swarm, Krosan Grip and Ratchet Bomb. These are all good SB enchantment removals.

    VI. Matchup & Videos

    More info coming soon.

    VII. Links & other Resources


    VIII. Contributors

    More info coming soon.
    Last edited by t000; 09-21-2020 at 03:30 AM.
    Regards

  2. #2

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    2nd post reserved for updates:

    • 17 September 2020, reserved the thread on MTS.
    • 18 September 2020, updated the II. History section and added the the original millstone deck to IV. Decklist section.
    Last edited by t000; 09-19-2020 at 03:16 PM.
    Regards

  3. #3
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    We were already working on UB mill in a different thread. 8x Crab makes it even better.

    Archive Trap is by far the most mana-efficient mill effect, at 13 cards for 0 mana. Instant 4x of.
    - Best mill-to-mana ratio in Legacy
    - enabled by fetchlands and tutors
    - Pitches to FoW and FoN.
    - Can be tutored with Trapmaker's Snare (questionable card, but surprisingly versatile due to Mindbreak Trap vs Storm and Ravenous Trap vs GY decks)
    - Can be recast for 0 mana via Mission Briefing (also works on FoW and FoN)

    The biggest drawback of Archive Trap is that the opponent can avoid searches to play around it. But the card is still too powerful not to play in mill. Luckily there is an amazing enabler that forces library search: Scheming Symmetry.

    Symmetry both forces the opponent to search (enabling Trap) and finds you the next mill effect, or any other situational answer you might need. The downside of Symmetry is mitigated by mill: you just mill the card they tutored for. 8x Crab has high synergy with Scheming Symmetry, because you can crack a fetch to mill them at instant speed if they try to cantrip into the card in response to other mill. Crab makes the Archive-Symmetry engine even stronger!

    Ghost Quarter also enables Trap and answers problems like Dark Depths and nonbasic-heavy combo decks, which would otherwise race mill. They can choose not to search, but then you get away with running 4x Strip Mine which isn't exactly bad either.


    After Trap and Crabs, the quality of mill effects drops off significantly. Some possible options are:
    Glimpse the Unthinkable (UB for 10 cards)
    Mind Funeral (1UB for 4-20 cards, gets better if you extract a land first)
    Memory Sluice (1 mana for 8 cards if you have Conspire from 2x Crab)
    Ashiok, Dream Render (3 mana for 4-20 cards, but stops fetchlands from turning on Trap)
    Jace, Memory Adept (5 mana for 1-card mill wincon, but expensive)
    Surgical Extraction (0 mana for 3 cards, plus permanently eliminating a card from their deck and fighting GY engines)

    Most of those effects aren't that great value for the mana and card spent, or are too conditional to get consistent payoff.

    Often you just get better value spending 2 mana on additional Archive Traps (2 mana for 13 cards):
    1U: Trapmaker's Snare at instant speed to find Trap
    UU: Mission Briefing to flashback Trap
    UU: Twincast or Narset's Reversal on a Trap on the stack (timing restrictions make this the least reliable)
    UB: Scheming Symmetry for Trap + blue cantrip to draw it

    With that in mind, we had a rough shell like this earlier


    //Creatures: 8
    8 Hedron Crab

    //Mill Spells: 10
    4 Archive Trap
    2 Trapmaker's Snare
    2 Mission Briefing
    2 Glimpse the Unthinkable

    //Other Spells: 24
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Scheming Symmetry
    3 Ponder
    3 Visions of Beyond
    2 Force of Negation

    //Lands: 18
    4 Ghost Quarter
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Prismatic Vista
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp

    //Rough Sideboard:
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render
    1 Ravenous Trap
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Glimpse the Unthinkable
    3 Eliminate
    2 Plague Engineer
    1 Spell Pierce


    There's an argument to have 1 Ravenous Trap main, or to run a couple Surgical Extraction main, just so you don't accidentally walk into Legacy's many GY engines in G1.

    You might also want to go up to a higher land count with 10 fetchlands to make Crabs better, though Crab will eat all of their removal 100% of the time.

  4. #4

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    We were already working on UB mill in a different thread. 8x Crab makes it even better.

    Archive Trap is by far the most mana-efficient mill effect, at 13 cards for 0 mana. Instant 4x of.
    - Best mill-to-mana ratio in Legacy
    - enabled by fetchlands and tutors
    - Pitches to FoW and FoN.
    - Can be tutored with Trapmaker's Snare (questionable card, but surprisingly versatile due to Mindbreak Trap vs Storm and Ravenous Trap vs GY decks)
    - Can be recast for 0 mana via Mission Briefing (also works on FoW and FoN)

    The biggest drawback of Archive Trap is that the opponent can avoid searches to play around it. But the card is still too powerful not to play in mill. Luckily there is an amazing enabler that forces library search: Scheming Symmetry.

    Symmetry both forces the opponent to search (enabling Trap) and finds you the next mill effect, or any other situational answer you might need. The downside of Symmetry is mitigated by mill: you just mill the card they tutored for. 8x Crab has high synergy with Scheming Symmetry, because you can crack a fetch to mill them at instant speed if they try to cantrip into the card in response to other mill. Crab makes the Archive-Symmetry engine even stronger!

    Ghost Quarter also enables Trap and answers problems like Dark Depths and nonbasic-heavy combo decks, which would otherwise race mill. They can choose not to search, but then you get away with running 4x Strip Mine which isn't exactly bad either.


    After Trap and Crabs, the quality of mill effects drops off significantly. Some possible options are:
    Glimpse the Unthinkable (UB for 10 cards)
    Mind Funeral (1UB for 4-20 cards, gets better if you extract a land first)
    Memory Sluice (1 mana for 8 cards if you have Conspire from 2x Crab)
    Ashiok, Dream Render (3 mana for 4-20 cards, but stops fetchlands from turning on Trap)
    Jace, Memory Adept (5 mana for 1-card mill wincon, but expensive)
    Surgical Extraction (0 mana for 3 cards, plus permanently eliminating a card from their deck and fighting GY engines)

    Most of those effects aren't that great value for the mana and card spent, or are too conditional to get consistent payoff.

    Often you just get better value spending 2 mana on additional Archive Traps (2 mana for 13 cards):
    1U: Trapmaker's Snare at instant speed to find Trap
    UU: Mission Briefing to flashback Trap
    UU: Twincast or Narset's Reversal on a Trap on the stack (timing restrictions make this the least reliable)
    UB: Scheming Symmetry for Trap + blue cantrip to draw it

    With that in mind, we had a rough shell like this earlier


    //Creatures: 8
    8 Hedron Crab

    //Mill Spells: 10
    4 Archive Trap
    2 Trapmaker's Snare
    2 Mission Briefing
    2 Glimpse the Unthinkable

    //Other Spells: 24
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Scheming Symmetry
    3 Ponder
    3 Visions of Beyond
    2 Force of Negation

    //Lands: 18
    4 Ghost Quarter
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Prismatic Vista
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp

    //Rough Sideboard:
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render
    1 Ravenous Trap
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Glimpse the Unthinkable
    3 Eliminate
    2 Plague Engineer
    1 Spell Pierce


    There's an argument to have 1 Ravenous Trap main, or to run a couple Surgical Extraction main, just so you don't accidentally walk into Legacy's many GY engines in G1.

    You might also want to go up to a higher land count with 10 fetchlands to make Crabs better, though Crab will eat all of their removal 100% of the time.

    I player UB mill for a while in modern so I can share a bit of my experience, since the deck looked similar.

    You should play at least some removal because you auto lose to a resolved creature + counters.
    Crabs main are kind of bad since they give your opponents targets for their removal.
    I think they are better in the sideboard once the opponent has taken their removal out.

    Some individual cards:

    Glimpse the Unthinkable is the bread an butter card of this deck since it always works.
    Mesmeric Orb - surprisingly good if you can't close it out early.
    Surgical Extraction / Extirpate - would run at least a few to not lose G1 to spaghetti monsters. Can also buy a lot of time.
    Oboro, Palace in the Clouds can be good to if you run out of lands.
    Fraying Sanity looks good on paper but is not so good in practice unless you can get it out earlier with petal or something.
    Ashiok, Dream Render sometimes actually cockblocks you depending on what you do so you have to be careful.
    Mind Funeral is crazy good since land counts in legacy are low and you should have milled already enough cards to make it really painful.
    Bonus: Devastation Tide is fun with Symmetry if you're in trouble.

  5. #5
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I player UB mill for a while in modern so I can share a bit of my experience, since the deck looked similar.

    You should play at least some removal because you auto lose to a resolved creature + counters.
    Crabs main are kind of bad since they give your opponents targets for their removal.
    I think they are better in the sideboard once the opponent has taken their removal out.

    Some individual cards:

    Glimpse the Unthinkable is the bread an butter card of this deck since it always works.
    Mesmeric Orb - surprisingly good if you can't close it out early.
    Surgical Extraction / Extirpate - would run at least a few to not lose G1 to spaghetti monsters. Can also buy a lot of time.
    Oboro, Palace in the Clouds can be good to if you run out of lands.
    Fraying Sanity looks good on paper but is not so good in practice unless you can get it out earlier with petal or something.
    Ashiok, Dream Render sometimes actually cockblocks you depending on what you do so you have to be careful.
    Mind Funeral is crazy good since land counts in legacy are low and you should have milled already enough cards to make it really painful.
    Bonus: Devastation Tide is fun with Symmetry if you're in trouble.
    Good points.

    When I tried testing UB mill in Legacy (moderate success, but never got that far), I ran 0 Crabs main and boarded in 4 Crabs postboard when their removal comes out. Otherwise like you said, maindeck Crab just soaks up their otherwise dead removal. The problem is with 8Crab that is not easy to do. You lose too much SB space. To play 8Crab at all, I think you need Crab main.

    Maybe with 8 Crabs main it will be harder to answer all? Even if they have an immediate answer, the failcase is "U: Mill 6" with a fetchland, which is better than most other mill effects still.

    4x Glimpse is probably correct. With Crabs main I moved the other 2 Glimpse to the SB (extra mill once they start playing around Archive Trap), but main may be better.

    I don't like Mind Funeral in Legacy. It has potential, but this is also a faster format with combo decks that win before you hit 3 mana and tempo decks with Wasteland, Daze, Spell Pierce, FoW, Veil, Thalia, Port... It is just too easy to have that card blown out to invest 3 mana in one effect.

    Devastation Tide looks like good silver bullet tech. Sadly you can't Miracle it off a cantrip that same turn, which means the opponent gets to draw their card first (if you didn't have a Crab to mill it) and that could just lose you the game. It seems like another card that would be much better in Modern, with less explosive opponents and without Legacy's cantrips to draw the symmetry card this turn. 95% of the time I cast Symmetry I draw the card the same turn. That's why I have 10 1-mana cantrips plus Mission Briefing.

    What creature removal would you run maindeck? Fatal Push? Eliminate? Maybe it's just correct to splash green for Oko, Thief of Crowns...

    EDIT: If you go to BUG, you get
    Abrupt Decay for removal that beats removal + counters and also hate pieces like Chalice
    Oko, Thief of Crowns for cheese that beats fair.dec and turn Crabs into Rogue Elephants
    Crop Rotation which enables dumb stuff with Crab landfall as well as 1-of Bojuka Bog main
    Veil of Summer to protect Archive Trap from counters and Crab from removal and your hand from discard
    It may even be correct to board in Uro as an alt win condition against control, using Crab to mill yourself for fuel.
    Green is too broken until Wizards fixes things with bans

  6. #6

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Good points.

    When I tried testing UB mill in Legacy (moderate success, but never got that far), I ran 0 Crabs main and boarded in 4 Crabs postboard when their removal comes out. Otherwise like you said, maindeck Crab just soaks up their otherwise dead removal. The problem is with 8Crab that is not easy to do. You lose too much SB space. To play 8Crab at all, I think you need Crab main.

    Maybe with 8 Crabs main it will be harder to answer all? Even if they have an immediate answer, the failcase is "U: Mill 6" with a fetchland, which is better than most other mill effects still.

    4x Glimpse is probably correct. With Crabs main I moved the other 2 Glimpse to the SB (extra mill once they start playing around Archive Trap), but main may be better.

    I don't like Mind Funeral in Legacy. It has potential, but this is also a faster format with combo decks that win before you hit 3 mana and tempo decks with Wasteland, Daze, Spell Pierce, FoW, Thalia, Port... It is just too easy to have that card blown out to invest 3 mana in one effect.

    Devastation Tide looks like good silver bullet tech. Sadly you can't Miracle it off a cantrip that same turn, which means the opponent gets to draw their card first (if you didn't have a Crab to mill it) and that could just lose you the game. It seems like another card that would be much better in Modern, with less explosive opponents and without Legacy's cantrips to draw the symmetry card this turn. 95% of the time I cast Symmetry I draw the card the same turn. That's why I have 10 1-mana cantrips plus Mission Briefing.

    What creature removal would you run maindeck? Fatal Push? Eliminate? Maybe it's just correct to splash green for Oko, Thief of Crowns...

    EDIT: If you go to BUG, you get
    Abrupt Decay for removal that beats removal + counters and also hate pieces like Chalice
    Oko, Thief of Crowns for cheese that beats fair.dec and turn Crabs into Rogue Elephants
    Crop Rotation which enables dumb stuff with Crab landfall as well as 1-of Bojuka Bog main
    Veil of Summer to protect Archive Trap from counters and Crab from removal and your hand from discard
    Green is too broken until Wizards fixes things with bans
    Mind Funeral is good against xerox type decks which most likely slow you down significantly.
    Your deck just sucks against storm in general since you don't do anything to stop them and fuel Cabal Rituals and PiF.
    Main deck the best chance is to disrupt them with Surgicals if you don't mill their 1 wincon by accident.

    Scheming Symmetry in general allows for a few silver bullets which I find appealing.
    Obviously given that you don't die next turn.
    Allows for more diversity in the SB.
    Unless you're desperate, you only Scheme if you have Traps or other mill.
    Also motivates at least a 1-off Funeral as Scheme target.

    For removal, probably a split between Push and Eliminate, depending on the meta.
    I liked Ensnaring Bridge but that may be too slow.
    Also Oko, but then again, Oko is ok.

    That leads me to the point that once you start splashing green your deck just becomes just a worse BUG pile.
    But that's the format I guess.
    One appeal of UB is that you can actually run a lot of basics and maybe 1 USea.
    If you go full crab.dec 1-2 more lands might be ok.

  7. #7

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Brain Freeze is another 2cc card that can do some milling.

    I wonder how far a deck can get by really leaning into the landfall end of things with ramp spells for extra triggers and lands like Ipnu Rivulet, Cephalid Coliseum or Nephalia Drownyard.

  8. #8
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Mind Funeral is good against xerox type decks which most likely slow you down significantly.
    Actually good in practice, or do you just mean due to their low land count it has the potential to mill a lot of cards IF RESOLVED?

    The last part seems hard. With Force of Will, Force of Negation, Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and Veil of Summer what are the chances of resolving a 3-mana mill spell against Xerox? With 0-2 mana mill spells you aren't blown out as badly by a cheap answer or mana denial.

    Because of that, I'd expect Mind Funeral to perform much better against Maverick or Chalice decks than Xerox decks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Scheming Symmetry in general allows for a few silver bullets which I find appealing.
    Obviously given that you don't die next turn.
    Allows for more diversity in the SB.
    Unless you're desperate, you only Scheme if you have Traps or other mill.
    Also motivates at least a 1-off Funeral as Scheme target.
    Yeah, the silver bullet angle is appealing. Before 8 Crabs was possible, the maindeck had more room without sacrificing card selection or disruption. In the UB mill thread I tried out 1-ofs main like Toxic Deluge, Ravenous Trap, Ashiok, Dream Render. Force of Despair might be good.

    Scheme + cantrip is much more consistent because then you get your card before they get theirs. You can Scheme into Trap and cast it immediately, also removing the card they got.

    Passing the turn with Scheme is riskier in Legacy than Modern because:
    -waiting a turn to get the card could be too slow vs what they already have on board and in hand
    -they can Brainstorm into the card in response to your mill. Crab+fetch fights that, but you also lose your card unless you already drew it
    -they can counter your non-Crab mill with FoW, FoN, Veil, Pierce. Crab+fetch also helps fight that

    Basically I think 8Crab + fetchlands gives the Scheming Symmetry engine more resilience to be more Legacy viable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I liked Ensnaring Bridge but that may be too slow.
    Also Oko, but then again, Oko is ok.
    Bridge is slower in Legacy (for non-Sol Land decks). It also has anti-synergy with holding Trap and counters in hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Brain Freeze is another 2cc card that can do some milling.
    Brain Freeze seems good to build around, especially because Archive Trap "builds storm" as a 0-mana spell.

    The mill lands seem too slow, not milling enough cards fast enough for the card it costs.

  9. #9
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Too bad the Wall that mills 4 isn't good enough...

    What about Drown in the Loch for removal?
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  10. #10

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Actually good in practice, or do you just mean due to their low land count it has the potential to mill a lot of cards IF RESOLVED?

    The last part seems hard. With Force of Will, Force of Negation, Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and Veil of Summer what are the chances of resolving a 3-mana mill spell against Xerox? With 0-2 mana mill spells you aren't blown out as badly by a cheap answer or mana denial.

    Because of that, I'd expect Mind Funeral to perform much better against Maverick or Chalice decks than Xerox decks.

    Yeah, the silver bullet angle is appealing. Before 8 Crabs was possible, the maindeck had more room without sacrificing card selection or disruption. In the UB mill thread I tried out 1-ofs main like Toxic Deluge, Ravenous Trap, Ashiok, Dream Render. Force of Despair might be good.

    Scheme + cantrip is much more consistent because then you get your card before they get theirs. You can Scheme into Trap and cast it immediately, also removing the card they got.

    Passing the turn with Scheme is riskier in Legacy than Modern because:
    -waiting a turn to get the card could be too slow vs what they already have on board and in hand
    -they can Brainstorm into the card in response to your mill. Crab+fetch fights that, but you also lose your card unless you already drew it
    -they can counter your non-Crab mill with FoW, FoN, Veil, Pierce. Crab+fetch also helps fight that

    Basically I think 8Crab + fetchlands gives the Scheming Symmetry engine more resilience to be more Legacy viable.

    Bridge is slower in Legacy (for non-Sol Land decks). It also has anti-synergy with holding Trap and counters in hand.
    Well, your arguments concerning xerox pretty much apply to anything.
    One of the problems of the archetype is that it can easily run out of steam.
    That's btw also why I would play 4 Visions.

    I also remembered why Ashiok sucks most of the time:
    She blocks Archive Trap.
    While it's nice that the opponent can't search with Symmetry, blanking the best card in the deck seems unwise.

    As I tried to say before, I would never play Symmetry if I couldn't get rid of the card he searched.
    Since you don't have good cantrips in modern the draw angle doesn't exist there.
    However you should keep in mind that the deck might not have enough lands in play to support UB + whatever in 1 turn.
    Most of the time I want to go for Trap anyway since that's your plan.
    Having effectively 8 Forces is also nice even though the deck really doesn't want to pitch anything.

    I just mentioned Bridge because it fit better in the modern deck and is an option depending on the meta.
    You also shouldn't underestimate how quickly you hand runs empty if you can't create any card advantage ever.

    A thing to not about Symmetry is also that it's super good against idiots.
    A lot of my opponents took way too long to catch on to the plan and not put any of their good cards on top.
    It might be difficult against Brainstorm decks however if you can not back it up with another mill to make sure he doesn't get the card.

  11. #11
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    I feel like there is a SpongeBob pun somewhere in the works to name this deck...Krabby Patty? Mr. Krabs? Krusty Krab?
    Brainstorm Realist

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  12. #12

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I feel like there is a SpongeBob pun somewhere in the works to name this deck...Krabby Patty? Mr. Krabs? Krusty Krab?
    I like your thoughts Mr. Safety :)
    Regards

  13. #13

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I also remembered why Ashiok sucks most of the time:
    She blocks Archive Trap.
    While it's nice that the opponent can't search with Symmetry, blanking the best card in the deck seems unwise.
    Kind of a nitpick, but it doesn't blank Symmetry, the opponent still must search (since it wasn't their ability that caused it). This keeps trap live for those instances, but yes, in others without symmetry it does prevent them from searching on their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Look at the bright side, if Legacy becomes like Vintage all of us old dudes can get together, drink whiskey, and smoke cigars while we play the gentleman's format. Like an MtG speak-easy.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Brazen Borrower might help with other problems, maybe SB. A lot of the creatures we worry about racing are 20/20 or 15/15 or weenie flyers that get ambushed by a 3/1 flash. Crabs already block ground dorks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    Well, your arguments concerning xerox pretty much apply to anything.
    Well, anything that costs 3+ mana. With 0-2 mana spells you only invested 0-2 mana. I don't run other 3-mana mill spells either.

    It hurts more to have an expensive spell countered than a cheaper spell countered. The expensive spell is also more likely to be stopped by Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Thalia etc., while you might be able to dodge the tax with the cheap spell. If a cheap spell gets countered, you may still have resources to play disruption or cantrip into more gas, while the expensive spell probably tapped you out and Time Walked you.

    It's the reason Legacy Burn doesn't play 3-mana burn like Ball Lightning. Great damage output for 1 card, but if it gets disrupted you get blown out too badly. High variance. Tempo matters much more in Legacy than Modern.

    Basically Mind Funeral is just a very high variance card, both because of its own ability and because it's a 3 mana sorcery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    One of the problems of the archetype is that it can easily run out of steam.
    That's btw also why I would play 4 Visions.
    I ran 4 Visions in some of my builds. It's great sometimes but weak early, and it's arguably not better than the 4th Ponder. Brainstorm and Ponder are better than anything in Modern and already help a bit with the gas problem compared to Modern. Modern has terribad cantrips so of course 4 Visions would come in first. Visions is also garbage postboard when bringing in gravehate, so I board it out a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    I also remembered why Ashiok sucks most of the time:
    She blocks Archive Trap.
    While it's nice that the opponent can't search with Symmetry, blanking the best card in the deck seems unwise.
    Ashiok, Dream Render only blocks their own effects (fetchlands, GSZ). It doesn't block forced searches from your own effects like Symmetry and Ghost Quarter and Path to Exile, meaning you can still force through Trap with Symmetry. Still, losing the free Traps from fetches is a relevant drawback.

    Edit: ronco Ninjitsu'd me with Ninja of the Deep Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    As I tried to say before, I would never play Symmetry if I couldn't get rid of the card he searched.
    Since you don't have good cantrips in modern the draw angle doesn't exist there.
    However you should keep in mind that the deck might not have enough lands in play to support UB + whatever in 1 turn.
    Most of the time I want to go for Trap anyway since that's your plan.
    Most of the time I played it I would search for Trap. Trap costs 0, so you just need UB+0, which is pretty easy. FoW/FoN/Surgical are also free, and Surgical also shuffles away their top card.

    Anyway I was talking about the cases where you need a silver bullet answer like Devastation Tide. Those are game states where you're way behind. In those states, you may not always be able to resolve a mill effect through their disruption and potential draw effects. So if you're running 1-of slots like that, it's relevant if they're still good even when you can't mill the opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post
    It might be difficult against Brainstorm decks however if you can not back it up with another mill to make sure he doesn't get the card.
    Brainstorm is 50% of Legacy... We need a plan for that. Brainstorm was one of the biggest issues we had in earlier UB Mill tests. 8Crab could be a clean answer to that.

    Edit: OP, nice beginnings of a primer
    For Landfall-mill you might want to look at some green land enabling cards too like
    Crop Rotation
    Summer Bloom
    Life from the Loam
    Knight of the Reliquary
    Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    Ramunap Excavator
    Mystic Sanctuary

  15. #15

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Yeah the Ashiok comment is a fail on my side.

    Anyway, after a bit more thinking, I suppose that there are 2 decks here which do slightly different things.
    One is a spell based turbo mill, while the other is a grindier crab deck.

    This is the crab thread so let's go maximum sideways scuttle.



    Since your plan is now sea food based, you have to identify the natural predators.


    (Interesting what you can find if you put some work into your shitposts.)

    These include:
    • Any removal
    • Counters
    • Chalice 1
    • Losing in general


    So how to prevent this?
    The package 4x (FoW, BS, Ponder, Daze) seems to be set since crabs are also blue.
    Daze can also be used to recur lands.
    You can either focus on more counters (Spell Pierce or maybe Disrupt) or protection (e.g. Dive Down).
    A 1-off Volrath's Stronghold could maybe be used to recycle crabs.
    Shapers' Sanctuary can help you find protection or more crabs in case you don't have a counter.
    One might want to consider Cavern of Souls to not autolose to Chalice.
    This has the upside (???) of also enabling Iceberg Cancrix (maybe with snow basics and astrolabe) and giant enemy crabs (Charix, the Raging Isle).

    The next topic is the ecosystem.
    As our crabs flourish from landslides we have to work on that.
    Fetchlands are an obvious choice.
    Exploration could be cute to also accelerate.
    Crop Rotation allows for utility that can also prevent you from dying like Glacial Chasm and Life from the Loam can recur the fetches.
    On that note, Ipnu Rivulet might be playable.
    1 Oboro, Palace in the Clounds seems always useful in case you have spare land drops available.
    Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath might be a bit expensive but he also assists in not perishing while providing a backup plan in case your crustaceans go extinct.
    Mystic Sanctuary is fetchable and reuse some mill spells.
    The problem is to balance the deck so that it synergizes with the crabs but is not crap without crabs.

    That also leads into the question of how much we want our crabs to settle in more muddy habitats.
    Scheming Symmetry seems too good to not play as it enables Archive Trap and searches for more mill cards.
    Glimpse the Unthinkable is the 2nd best mill spell which probably want to run as well.
    Mind Funeral can have a lot of variance but if you go for lands you could probably afford to cast it. Depending on the matchup and the previous milling efforts it might be lethal.
    Extirpate seems more like a sideboard card but could be handy against decks with low threat diversity.
    Surgical Extraction doesn't require black and I would heavily encourage a non-zero number in the main deck to not lose to mom's spaghetti monster.
    Black in general provides removal which you probably need for your crabs to reach maturity.
    Abrupt Decay also helps with party poopers like Chalice.

    If you don't want to run black you probably should look into Field of Ruin since it forces a search to activate your trap card and excites your crabs as well.
    Not running black comes with the bonus of allowing for a more robust mana base with more utility slots.

    At this point, most of the available side dishes have been already discussed.
    We have probably run of slot halfway through this pile of crab.
    I'm also low on ideas and contextual maymays.
    Last edited by Zoid; 09-18-2020 at 04:32 PM.

  16. #16

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Zoid out


  17. #17

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoid View Post

    Since your plan is now sea food based, you have to identify the natural predators.


    (Interesting what you can find if you put some work into your shitposts.)
    Oh wow Zoid! You just lifted this tread up to a whole other level Glad you, FTW and the rest of the guys joined us!

    Our current results shows us that runnning 8 crabs and protection, might be more efficiant than running Arcum's Astrolabe and Iceberg Cancrix. As these cards are some what conditional. Iceberg Cancrix has a 2 CMC and only works with Snow Lands and Astrolabe. Phantasmal Image is also an option. Its main goal is a Crab, so it might then be a "dead" card in hand for a couple of rounds, but can as a last resort target opponents creatures. Thus its brutal against S&T and Reanimator decks.

    We have been play-testing with different types of "Crab Protection", either hexproof or bounce. If we dont have any Crabs on the beach, the Hexproof cards might be a "dead" card in hand for a couple of rounds. Bounce cards can always be used as a last resort on opponent´s combo pieces or big creatures. Chain of Vapor beegin our current favourite: we can sac our own lands to bounce more Crabs. If we bounce opponents non-land permanent they can sacs lands, getting our Crabs bounced, which is no big deal. Only dangerous against Cascade and ETB abilities.

    Maby we can find some ETB cards to abuse?

    Any thoughts on this?


    // Hexproof/Shroud (protection)
    Robe of Mirrors
    Diplomatic Immunity
    Lightning Greaves
    Lazotep Plating
    Dive Down

    //Bounce (protection)
    Chain of Vapor
    Curfew
    Rescue
    Saving Grasp
    Vapor Snag
    Boomerang
    Call to Heel
    Echoing Truth
    Winds of Rebuke


    PS: Bounce cards can also handle our worst nightmare the Crab Pot (Leyline of Sanctity).


    (Source: howstuffworks.com)
    Regards

  18. #18

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by t000 View Post
    Oh wow Zoid! You just lifted this tread up to a whole other level Glad you, FTW and the rest of the guys joined us!

    Our current results shows us that runnning 8 crabs and protection, might be more efficiant than running Arcum's Astrolabe and Iceberg Cancrix. As these cards are some what conditional. Iceberg Cancrix has a 2 CMC and only works with Snow Lands and Astrolabe. Phantasmal Image is also an option. Its main goal is a Crab, so it might then be a "dead" card in hand for a couple of rounds, but can as a last resort target opponents creatures. Thus its brutal against S&T and Reanimator decks.

    We have been play-testing with different types of "Crab Protection", either hexproof or bounce. If we dont have any Crabs on the beach, the Hexproof cards might be a "dead" card in hand for a couple of rounds. Bounce cards can always be used as a last resort on opponent´s combo pieces or big creatures. Chain of Vapor beegin our current favourite: we can sac our own lands to bounce more Crabs. If we bounce opponents non-land permanent they can sacs lands, getting our Crabs bounced, which is no big deal. Only dangerous against Cascade and ETB abilities.

    Maby we can find some ETB cards to abuse?

    Any thoughts on this?


    // Hexproof/Shroud (protection)
    Robe of Mirrors
    Diplomatic Immunity
    Lightning Greaves
    Lazotep Plating
    Dive Down

    //Bounce (protection)
    Chain of Vapor
    Curfew
    Rescue
    Saving Grasp
    Vapor Snag
    Boomerang
    Call to Heel
    Echoing Truth
    Winds of Rebuke


    PS: Bounce cards can also handle our worst nightmare the Crab Pot (Leyline of Sanctity).


    (Source: howstuffworks.com)
    It's good to see that my quality post has been appreciated.
    Feel free to reuse anything if you want to.

    Cancrix was mainly for the meme because I also think it's not good enough.

    Phantasmal Image has the large downsides of not doing anything on it's own and dying to removal, regardless of what you do.

    In my opinion counters are more flexible than protection since they can also do things if you're currently crabless.
    Bounce however can be really good situational to bounce certain avatars or angler fishes.

    Lazotep Plating costs 2 but at least also shields from combo and discard so it might be worth a shot.

    Bonus: Leyline only works against the older, crustier crab, the new one mills each opponent.

  19. #19

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.



    - So where does the Crabs want to go? To the Forest, Swamp, Plains, Mountains or just keep dancing on the Island? *ref Zoid post.

    We are pretty convinced that mono-u-crab will miss out on a lot of good cards, therefore we have started testing both UB and UW packages. The UB package didn't have room for Ashiok, but we have been testing 2 of him in UW as he can be cast for 1UU. Yes missing out on Glimpse the Unthinkable by going UW seems non-responsible, but has shown to actually be pretty good. The Path to Exile and Disenchant has proven to be verry good in legacy. Path to Exile combos superb with Archive Trap and Disenchant has until now been a awsome MB protection against Crab Pot (Leyline of Sanctity) Chalice of the Void and other pesticides. So in other words, what you loose in "mill-cards" from B will save you from dying T2 S&T/Reanimator/Eldrazi and keeping the deck pretty consistent in both sustainability and the mill efficiency (due to Trap synergic). Rest in Peace can also give us a SB Helm-combo, but we have not seen the need.

    package:
    //MB
    Fatal Push
    Drown in the Loch
    Scheming Symmetry
    Glimpse the Unthinkable
    // SB
    Leyline of the Void

    package:
    //MB
    Path to Exile
    Disenchant
    Ashiok, Dream Render
    + some more U cards
    // SB
    Rest in Peace
    Swords to Plowshares

    This will need more testing. You guys have any thouhgts? Any cards you can think off?
    Regards

  20. #20

    Re: Eight Crab - The new Mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by t000 View Post


    - So where does the Crabs want to go? To the Forest, Swamp, Plains, Mountains or just keep dancing on the Island? *ref Zoid post.

    We are pretty convinced that mono-u-crab will miss out on a lot of good cards, therefore we have started testing both UB and UW packages. The UB package didn't have room for Ashiok, but we have been testing 2 of him in UW as he can be cast for 1UU. Yes missing out on Glimpse the Unthinkable by going UW seems non-responsible, but has shown to actually be pretty good. The Path to Exile and Disenchant has proven to be verry good in legacy. Path to Exile combos superb with Archive Trap and Disenchant has until now been a awsome MB protection against Crab Pot (Leyline of Sanctity) Chalice of the Void and other pesticides. So in other words, what you loose in "mill-cards" from B will save you from dying T2 S&T/Reanimator/Eldrazi and keeping the deck pretty consistent in both sustainability and the mill efficiency (due to Trap synergic). Rest in Peace can also give us a SB Helm-combo, but we have not seen the need.

    package:
    //MB
    Fatal Push
    Drown in the Loch
    Scheming Symmetry
    Glimpse the Unthinkable
    // SB
    Leyline of the Void

    package:
    //MB
    Path to Exile
    Disenchant
    Ashiok, Dream Render
    + some more U cards
    // SB
    Rest in Peace
    Swords to Plowshares

    This will need more testing. You guys have any thouhgts? Any cards you can think off?
    White seems super bad.
    Path not only requires your opponents to play creatures but is also an optional search.
    The only way I can see Path to be ok if you have already assembled a team of crabvengers and one is about to be boiled.

    Ashiok not only costs 3, but she/it (?) also doesn't defend neither itself or you.
    She may crab you opponent by the balls and block his searches but then you really need a Symmetry or Field of Ruin.
    The mill is also slow and stops both Surgical like effects as well as Visions.

    I would maybe start of with something like this:

    Crab Rotation.dec

    4 Hedron Crab
    4 Ruin Crab
    2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    3 Exploration
    4 Crop Rotation
    4 Archive Trap
    2 Surgical Extraction
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    3 Force of Will
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Glacial Chasm
    1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
    4 Ghost Quarter
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Ipnu Rivulet
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Island
    1 Forest
    1 Swamp
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Field of Ruin
    2 Life from the Loam
    2 Scheming Symmetry

    Can't be bothered with tags.
    Might be a bit slow and can't deal well with things it can't counter but might be more resilient.

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