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Thread: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

  1. #1

    R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Been having pretty good results with an R/G Madness list, inspired from those Vintage Survival lists. Check it out:

    R/G Madness

    4 Hollow One
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Anje's Ravager
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Vengevine
    4 Flameblade Adept
    4 Street Wraith
    1 Ox of Agonas
    2 Anger
    4 Once Upon a Time
    2 Mountain
    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Taiga
    4 Wooded Foothills
    3 Firestorm
    2 Seasoned Pyromancer
    1 Mountain
    1 Forest

    SB: 3 Pyroblast
    SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
    SB: 1 Firestorm
    SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 2 Silent Gravestone
    SB: 4 Force of Vigor
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

    I could theorycraft for hours about how the list plays better than it looks (and let's be honest it looks like a shitpile) but you'd be better off testing it out imo. The powerlevel is there, t2 kills are not unheard of believe it or not. You can beat up most fair decks and race combo. On the other hand expect pretty tight games, it'll often come down to a couple life points. SB is of course a shitshow, tailor it to your meta, you know the drill... a mistake opponents would make is overboard on gravehate when the deck isn't that dependent on it. So when sideboarding shave the few GY components for specific hate, but don't go overboard either in case they refuse to respect your GY.

    I was overall satisfied but sometimes cards would get stuck in hand, Street Wraith was always awkward to play with (although it's necessary for that Hollow One cost reduction) and red is a terrible color for dealing with random nonsense permanents. So I traded OuaT for Careful Studies, Seasoned Pyromancers for Bazaar Trademages and jammed in 4x Daze for more interaction. Why Daze? Because it's free, both in mana and CA, and you can loot away the island you bounced in a pinch. Here's the list I'm currently playing:

    R/U/g Madness

    4 Hollow One
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Anje's Ravager
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Vengevine
    4 Flameblade Adept
    1 Ox of Agonas
    1 Anger
    2 Mountain
    3 Firestorm
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Careful Study
    2 Bazaar Trademage
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Island
    4 Daze
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Fiery Islet
    2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    1 Taiga

    SB: 3 Pyroblast
    SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
    SB: 1 Firestorm
    SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 3 Turbulent Dreams
    SB: 3 Force of Will

    Slightly less explosive but much more consistent. I know Anger, Squee and Ox look like jokes but they absolutely have a role. You need a critical density of cards you want to pitch and we're basically never hardcasting them, that's all. Again, SB is all over the place, also the manabase is still changing.

    After trying them, I don't play the "discard at random" cards. Burning Inquiry is just CDA and Goblin Lore/Control of the Court is just too slow. You also get burned more often than you'd like by the randomness. I'm still torn between Seasoned Pyromancer and Bazaar Trademage who play a very similar role; we'll see how it goes.

    The deck is incredibly fun and is filled with tricks. If you play Hogaak you'll be familiar with all the sequencing stuff to maximize your damage output. Sometimes you look like you're durdling for one or two turns and then you come out and spit 18 power out of nowhere. You can also grind if need be thanks to the Ox/Squee package.

    Anyway take the time to check out the list, I really think it's got potential.

  2. #2
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    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Very interesting list. A couple of us have been messing around with Vengevine in another thread if you're interested in seeing what we're cooking up. Its BGrw and forgoes some of the spell enablers for creature based enablers like Putrid Imp and Tireless tribe.
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    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    i think you may have posted this on reddit a few weeks ago. have you had any success since then?
    -rob

  4. #4

    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Very interesting list. A couple of us have been messing around with Vengevine in another thread if you're interested in seeing what we're cooking up. Its BGrw and forgoes some of the spell enablers for creature based enablers like Putrid Imp and Tireless tribe.
    I looked at that thread, it's nice to see other directions this could take. I guess the GB Vengevine lists are closer to the (streamlined) Hogaak archetype? For what it's worth, I tried to include Hogaak in the deck but there are too few green creatures, and if you manage to get Vengevines online you'd rather attack with them anyway.

    In this list I prefer to use "looters as cantrips" so that you aren't so reliant on your opening hands, and more importantly I really want to use LED which is just a broken card. You think the deck is a shitpile until you open LED Ravager Rootwalla Vengevine and suddenly you've put your opponent on a 2-turn clock. Thanks to the looting package this happens often enough to give you a bunch of free wins. In order to best leverage LED you need enough Madness cards, and Ravager fits the bill best after Rootwalla. He's also crucial to refill your hand after you've just put yourself hellbent, and LED lets you play him at instant speed, before untapping (or before declaring blockers).

    i think you may have posted this on reddit a few weeks ago. have you had any success since then?
    Yeah that was me lol. Over time I was frustrated that the deck had few ways of interacting so I turned to blue. I think a black-splashing list that's closer to the GB Vengevine thread could also exist, and it'd probably play a number of Big Game Hunter or Call the Netherworld.

  5. #5
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    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    What are your matchups like so far? How are your test results?

    I'm always skeptical of playing "fair" creatures (smaller than 7/7) without FoW, Chalice, or a lot of discard. Can you run any MD interaction other than Daze? The MD Firestorm does look useful.

    I built a RUG Madness Stompy deck in the Bazaar Trademage thread and have tested a lot of games with it this year. It's less explosive than the builds like yours with 1-mana looting but also runs more disruption for other fast decks, instead of just trying to race with luck. I like what the stompy shell adds. Resistors slow down other Legacy decks and protect your threats, while the Stompy lands make it easier to curve out cards like Anje's Ravager, Bazaar Trademage and Ox of Agonas for gas while even hardcasting Hollow One and Vengevine. Putting the looting on bodies makes it a bit easier to enable Vengevine, since the loot already counts as the 1st creature.

    RUG Madness Stompy


    //Resistors: 8
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Thorn of Amethyst

    //Creatures: 26
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Anje's Ravager
    4 Bazaar Trademage
    4 Champion of Wits
    4 Vengevine
    4 Hollow One
    2 Ox of Agonas

    //Spells: 4
    4 Once Upon A Time

    //Lands: 22
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga


    The deck tries to curve out T1 Resistor into T2 Looter, using OUAT to help find that starting Sol Land and Looter. Both Chalice and Thorn are 1-sided.

    The maindeck is just full of redundancy and draw engines on bodies, which gives a lot of gas to outdraw the opponent even through disruption. 14 creatures that draw 2-3 cards and 4 OUAT: a ton of power to churn through cards. This tries to play a grindier game, instead of dumping out a T1 Hollow One or Vengevine (the BG shell seems better for that). I think the advantage of RUG over BG is to have more grind and these slower looters on big bodies (Ravager, Trademage, Ox). Otherwise I think the Putrid Imp shell is more consistent at explosive starts.

    Eternalizing Champion of Wits is a thing that can happen and just provides insane lategame advantage. The main side is not amazing, but it's still Careful Study with a 2/1 body (which triggers Vengevine with a single Rootwalla or Hollow One+1 mana).

    Creatures like Champion, Ravager and Ox can play dual roles: you can either hardcast them to loot, or you can discard them to other looters for value. They're both engines and payoffs.

    I tried testing Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath but UUGG was too awkward to produce.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-20-2020 at 09:46 AM.

  6. #6
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    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Hollow One seems akward with LED. If you need LED as your discard outlet, you will just be discarding it. You need to cast both Faithless Looting and cycle Street Wraith on turn 1 to cast it for 0 mana. If you're waiting until turn 2 to cast Faithless Looting or LED, you are slowing yourself down just to support Hollow One.

    I realize Hollow One is great with Vengevine by potentially being a 0cc creature to help trigger them, but I don't think that is going to happen consistently enough in your list. You have to discard/cycle 3+ cards in a turn to make Hollow One cost zero mana, which you don't have a way to do without Looting + Street Wraith.

    With LED and Looting, I wonder if Echo of Eons should be in the deck. It doesn't play nice with Vengevine's sitting in your graveyard, is a non-bo with Ox of Agonas, and you may want to spend the LED mana on Anje's Ravager instead, but it draws a fresh pile of 7 cards for the 3 LED mana. From the new hand, you can now cast Hollow One's for 0 mana, and potentially chain into another LED + stuff.

    I''d definitely be looking at including Lotus Petal and Mox Opal, possibly other free cards like Memnite (maybe even Frogmite), and cards that you can cheat into play after being discarded, like Bloodghast.
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    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Once you're playing Lion's Eye Diamond + Echo of Eons, you're making cards like Vengevine and Bloodghast and Ox much worse, and you'd be better off just playing Storm or Emry Stompy.

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    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Once you're playing Lion's Eye Diamond + Echo of Eons, you're making cards like Vengevine and Bloodghast and Ox much worse, and you'd be better off just playing Storm or Emry Stompy.
    Not necessarily. Ox definitely won't work and should be cut from a list with Eons, but you can build the deck to be able to trigger Vengevine and Bloodghast first before casting Eons.

    Honestly, I'm getting way off track here, and talking about what is basically a completely different deck. I only brought up Eons because of how powerful it is with LED. Sorry to derail the thread.

    I'll probably just start a new thread for that idea.
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    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Yes, you could do it, but making 4/4s and 2/1s is one of the weakest possible things you could do with the Echo + LED combination.

    Other options include:
    - destroy opponent's hand + draw 7 (Narset, Parter of Veils combo in Emry Stompy)
    - win the game this turn (RUG Storm / Song of Storms)
    - make 16 Goblins (Belcher)

    Feel free to try to brew Echo madness, but it just seems like an underpowered waste of those cards.

  10. #10

    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    What are your matchups like so far? How are your test results?

    I'm always skeptical of playing "fair" creatures (smaller than 7/7) without FoW, Chalice, or a lot of discard. Can you run any MD interaction other than Daze? The MD Firestorm does look useful.
    I mean, there are plenty of Legacy decks that don't play much discard, FoW or Chalice (though I'll admit that their portion of the meta shrinks by the day thanks to Wizards having a hardon for blue for no apparent reason). D&T, Maverick, Elves, Painter, hell even Dredge and Hogaak just play Therapy and sometimes not even the full playset.

    Hollow One seems akward with LED. If you need LED as your discard outlet, you will just be discarding it. You need to cast both Faithless Looting and cycle Street Wraith on turn 1 to cast it for 0 mana. If you're waiting until turn 2 to cast Faithless Looting or LED, you are slowing yourself down just to support Hollow One.
    In practice it's ok. Usually good sequencing will lead to turn 1 adept, turn 2 looting, cast Hollow one, attack with triggered adept, possibly vengevines, etc. Not a bad start. Yes sometimes you have to discard the Hollow One to LED but if you're cracking a LED you're usually doing broken stuff anyway so you don't care about discarding a card. If it gets stuck in hand don't forget you can cycle it.

    After doing a bunch of testing I'm finding my way back to the pure R/g list. Being even a tad too slow makes us awkward against Delver, combo etc. Also the blue version gets utterly wrecked by Chalice.

    All in all I still think the list has legs, although you have to accept many matchups will be down to a race, and ultimately the luck of the draw which I guess can be frustrating if you're used to playing countermagic and the cantrip cartel.

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    Re: R(U)/g Madness in 2020

    Quote Originally Posted by madnessguy View Post
    I mean, there are plenty of Legacy decks that don't play much discard, FoW or Chalice (though I'll admit that their portion of the meta shrinks by the day thanks to Wizards having a hardon for blue for no apparent reason). D&T, Maverick, Elves, Painter, hell even Dredge and Hogaak just play Therapy and sometimes not even the full playset.
    The first 2 run Thalia + hatebears. The others run combos that can threaten explosive T2 wins.

    Fair aggro is practically dead in Legacy. It's either blue aggro, hatebears, stompy, or aggro/combo. Making vanilla 4/4s isn't really broken enough to play without disruption.

    The BG Vengevine deck plays with Cabal Therapy and other discard, like Hogaak and Dredge. Check out the thread for ideas. It tries to deploy multiple Vengevines/Hollow Ones on turn 1, which gives it a reasonable chance to race other decks. Cabal Therapy and Stain the Mind help control decks it can't race.

    Has your testing so far been goldfishing? Don't see any actions from opponents there. How does it test against opponents?

    Running Chalice & resistors makes the Delver and Combo matchups much better, which is the plan for my Madness Stompy list. You don't have to race if you can just slow them down first. You could also try to race them but then you probably want your 4/4s on turn 1.

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