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Thread: UW Echo Stompy

  1. #21
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    Re: Echo Affinity

    I decided to go with Chrome Mox maindeck. Chrome Mox enables way more consistent turn 1 Mentor or Narset into LED/Echo hands, there are plenty of blue cards that are unecessary in multiples that I am fine with pitching, and this deck generates so much card advantage that I am fine with the card disadvantage.

    Being able to cast Teferi on turn 1 can deal with the Ouphe/Null Rod problem, too. In game 2, I should also have Force of Will + whatever else.

    I like Dispatch for cleanly dealing with Ouphe and Plague Engineer postboard, and EE can deal with Mother or Giver of Runes in the Maverick matchup before Ouphe comes down.

    Against Null Rod specifically, I might just rely on Force of Wll + Erayo/Chalice/Teferi, since it's likely only ever a 1-of. I'm not sure that Null Rod alone is worth me switching from EE to Disenchant, given how strong EE is with Emry.

    I decided to cut Cavern of Souls and Mox Amber for them.

    I would cut Riddlesmith before cutting the first Mentor. Riddlesmith can help with the engine, discarding Echo and increasing the card quality of the hand, plus putting stuff in the yard for Emry is nice, but Mentor is how I actually win the game. The sooner I can resolve a Mentor and start chaining cards together the better, and I certainly want to be able to stick one through removal/countermagic/etc, and they are great in multiples. I only need a single Riddlesmith to acquire the effect, and they aren't necessary for the deck to function.

    I'm fine with 2 Riddlesmith. With Erayo, I do appreciate having the additional 4 2cc creatures for the curve in addition to Chalice, but I shouldn't really need more than that, considering how much Chrome Mox helps for casting a 3cc spell on turn 1.

    EDIT: Riddlesmith is really strong, but Erayo is even stronger, and I'm almost wondering if I shouldn't just be on 4 Erayo instead. Chrome Mox helps make turn 1 Erayo pretty consistent, and turn 1 Erayo is absolutely busted. I'm going to go with 4 Erayo for now. I'll update my list in the OP.
    Last edited by Hanni; 09-24-2020 at 08:37 AM.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  2. #22
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    Re: Echo Affinity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    EDIT: Riddlesmith is really strong, but Erayo is even stronger, and I'm almost wondering if I shouldn't just be on 4 Erayo instead. Chrome Mox helps make turn 1 Erayo pretty consistent, and turn 1 Erayo is absolutely busted. I'm going to go with 4 Erayo for now. I'll update my list in the OP.
    Looking forward to seeing your results!

    Erayo is even more busted after you board in Ethersworn Canonist against non-artifact decks (they can play 1 spell per turn and it gets countered). You don't need to shoehorn yourself into always trying to assemble this 2-card combo, but it's a powerful angle you can exploit postboard vs decks where you'd want Canonist anyway.

    The main drawback I had with Legacy Erayo Affinity 10 years ago was lack of gas. If Erayo got disrupted, I was left with a bunch of Ornithopters and Memnites and Springleaf Drums (because Erayo and Canonist had to take up business slots instead of acceleration slots). Affinity had limited draw power to dig out of it, so it was a very all-in play. You've got Echo of Eons, Thoughtcast, Narset, Parter of Veils, Emry + Bauble... you should be able to draw into gas just fine. Your deck looks really well set up to exploit the power.

    Affinity also couldn't really support Chrome Mox, but you might have enough colored spells to pull it off. With the Chalices, Mox helps you push 8 turn 1 2-mana lock pieces before you beatdown with Mentor.

  3. #23
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    Re: Echo Affinity

    Yeah, the deck feels pretty sick right now. The amount of broken turn 1 starts is pretty high, the amount of powerful disruption is absurd, the draw power and card advantage is crazy, and Mentor is just insane. This is definitely a busted deck.

    I'm really happy with where the deck is at right now. I'll message a mod to get the thread renamed to UW Echo Stompy.

    The deck definitely has powerful counters to it, like Plague Engineer, Ouphe, and Chalice on 0, but the deck does have the answers to those things between the 75, and enough speed and draw power to find those answers and deploy them in time.

    EDIT: Actually, turn 1 on the draw, EE doesn't deal with Chalice on 0, so right now it's FoW or bust. With only 5 white sources and 5 blue sources that don't get shut off by Chalice, it's probably better to go with Force of Negation than an answer like Fragmentize, although Fragmentize deals with Leyline of the Void, so that may still be a consideration.

    EDIT 2: Cutting the 2 Sorcerous Spyglass for 2 Force of Negation in the sideboard. Teferi can deal with Leyline, and Leyline only shuts down Emry and Echo, which this deck doesn't actually need to be able to win. Karn, GSZ (Ouphe), Chalice on 0, etc are much more problematic, and Force of Negation deals with all of those.
    Last edited by Hanni; 09-24-2020 at 10:57 AM.
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    /r Miracle Intuition
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  4. #24
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Now that I'm on 4 Erayo, I'm wondering if it wouldn't make sense to cut the Minamo and Karakas for 2 Mox Amber, for full on nastiness. More moxen is better for Opal, Thoughtcast, Erayo flipping, Mentor triggers, emptying my hand prior to LED/Echo, and is just more acceleration in general.

    I know I keep cycling between cards, but as changes are made, so do design decisions. Ultimately, I cut 4 lands for 4 Chrome Mox from my original configuration, and the 2 Jace for 2 more Erayo.

    I obviously am all in vs Chalice on 0 and Collector Ouphe now, but those cards already wreck me anyways. The goal is to either get under the hate, or run the proper answers to deal with them.

    -1 Minamo
    -1 Karakas
    +2 Mox Amber
    Sligh
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  5. #25
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Decided to cut 2 Mox Amber for 2 Cavern of Souls. Mox Amber was okay in testing, but sometimes unreliable as a mana source.

    I want to try Caverns again. Uncounterable turn 1 Erayo is pretty busted against a lot of matchups, and naming Monk makes Mentor uncounterable as well. It's more reliable as a mana source, and can still contribute towards casting the Planeswalker's with the colorless portion of their cost.

    I'm hoping this change makes turn 1 hands more consistent, while also increasing resiliency. 10 lands averages to 1 in 6 cards, which should be perfect I think.

    I edited the list in the OP to reflect these changes.

    Still on the fence about whether or not I should fit removal in the sideboard that answers Chalice and Null Rod. Cavern certainly makes Brazen Borrower a more reliable option now, although I'd much rather have a more permanent answer. The Forces work, but I have to have one in hand immediately, whereas it would be nice to also have outs to draw into.

    Dispatch is most likely the cut for Brazen Borrower if decide to go this route, because I still really like Engineered Explosives (with Emry) for dealing with everything else.

    I do like the efficiency and permanence of Dispatch for dealing with problematic creatures efficiently though, so I'm still on the fence. For now, I'm going to keep the configuration as is, because I still need to do a lot more testing, but I will be assessing how often I wished Dispatch was Brazen Borrower and vice versa.

    Also, I'm sad that there isn't much interest in this deck. It's such a powerful pile of cards.
    Sligh
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  6. #26
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    The deck looks strong with so many explosive early locks:
    -Turn 1 flipped Erayo
    -Narset + Echo
    -Turn 1 Chalice

    What have you been playing it against lately? How has it performed?

  7. #27
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    I don't get to play too much these days, so my testing is pretty limited. I'm hoping to be more involved with magic more this winter, but we'll see how that goes.

    In the few games that I have played with it recently, I have been extremely happy with the performance. It feels like playing a Vintage deck in Legacy most of the time.

    I played against TES, 4c Snowko, and RUG Delver, going 2-1, 2-0, and 2-1 against them.
    Sligh
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  8. #28
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Another interesting approach is to cut white for black. I don't think it would be better at all, but it's still an interesting idea to brew with. You get Baleful Strix to combo with Emry, Hullbreacher and Opposition Agent as crazy powerful hatebears that generate massive amounts of CA and shut down opponents, Plague Engineer in the sideboard to hose a number of matchups, and Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to replace Teferi as the decks super powerful planeswalker that can end the game quickly. You'd have to cut Thoughtcast as well, which is critical to the engine for UW, but much less necessary without Mentor, and easily replaced with Baleful Strix and the other hatebears in the black splash. You become much more creature heavy, although much less overlap on creature types, so I'm not sure if it should still run Cavern of Souls. Uncounterable Erayo is busted, but only Emry and Hullbreacher share a creature type (Merfolk). With more stuff with 2 colorless in the cost, Ancient Tomb seems way better. Still wouldn't go in the Urza/Karn route though, because even with Hullbreacher, that list is way too mana hungry (and the deck literally cannot afford the card slots), but maybe Sai, Master Thopterist could be worth it? Probably no room though. The list may need a few more mana sources vs the UW list though, and could maybe trim an LED due to less dependence on LED/Echo to refuel the deck due to the nature of the play style of hatebears vs Mentor. Still not sure if all of this fits into a clean 60 cards though, but with 2-4 Strix, 2 Hullbreacher, 2 Opposition Agent, and 2 Tezzeret, I think it could work. Might want more than 2 copies of Hullbreacher or Opposition Agent if possible, but 2 each is definitely a good starting point.

    A rough draft of the UB list (which again, I feel is inferior to my UW list):

    UB Emry Stompy

    Lands (12)
    4 Seat of Synod
    4 Vault of Whispers
    4 Ancient Tomb

    Creatures (14)
    4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
    4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Opposition Agent
    2 Hullbreacher

    Spells ()
    4 Narset, Parter of Veils
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    4 Echo of Eons
    2 Urza's Bauble
    2 Mishra's Bauble
    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Engineered Explosives
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond

    Sideboard (15)
    4 Force of Will
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Brazen Borrower
    2 Plague Engineer
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render


    Almost wondering if the deck wants maindeck EE to combine with Emry, since the deck is more dependent on swinging in with evasionless 3/2's to clock the opponent. Also wondering how valuable Baleful Strix really is vs more Hullbreacher's and/or Opposition Agent's, considering the overall power level. Maybe trimming to 2 Strix and 1 EE maindeck would be the better way to build this?

    There's also the consideration of Ashiok, which works extremely well in tandem with Opposition Agent for attacking opponents on that angle (especially fetchlands). In that case though, I would certainly max out Opposition Agent's first. And while I'm on that discussion, should Opposition Agent be maxed out to 4? The card is clearly busted, with a turn 1 Opposition Agent being almost as strong as a turn 1 Erayo or Narset + LED/Echo against most decks when we're on the play. Curve reasons aside, is Strix even worth it vs just running more Opposition Agent/Hullbreacher with a couple of EE? I'm not even sure, tbh. I really like Strix with Emry, but Strix on its own is on a much lower power level than all of the other creatures.

    At any rate, this is a starting point for the UB list. I still think the UW list is far superior, and as I barely have time as it is, will not be working on the UB variation any time soon.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  9. #29
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I really don't get why more people aren't interested in this deck. It's literally like playing a Vintage deck in Legacy, which is absolutely absurd. Most games are basically over after turn 1.
    Because people don't play too much legacy today and nobody's testing?

  10. #30
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Because people don't play too much legacy today and nobody's testing?
    I think it has more to do with The Source being super dead these days, but still, I see activity on other threads, so I'm just going to assume it's because I have no MTGO or big paper tournament results with the deck.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  11. #31
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Hullbreacher is an amazing new card spoiled that would give the deck additional Narsets with flash on a 3/2 body that can create Lotus Petal tokens for this deck to ramp out with.
    I posted about it a week or two ago in the other Emry Stompy thread (mono U). I think it would work better in the Mono U shell, where you have both Narset and Hullbreacher to combo with Echo and remove their hand, and you can also flash in Hullbreacher to wreck their Brainstorms.

  12. #32
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I posted about it a week or two ago in the other Emry Stompy thread (mono U). I think it would work better in the Mono U shell, where you have both Narset and Hullbreacher to combo with Echo and remove their hand, and you can also flash in Hullbreacher to wreck their Brainstorms.
    That's literally no different from what it's doing in here though. I have Narset, LED, and Echo too.

    The benefit to the mono blue version, is that deck has a difficult time casting Narset on turn 1 because of the double blue cost, but can pretty reliably hit 2U on turn 1. That deck is way more mana hungry too, so it benefits a little bit more from the mana ramp of the Lotus Petal tokens. The additional 3/2 bodies certainly don't hurt, and being able to flash it in EOT to swing into an opponent's unprotected planeswalker is a solid line. More importantly though,, it dramatically improves their disruption capabilities because they lack Erayo. Where Erayo dramatically improves my disruption by giving me a consistent way to disrupt my opponent on turn 1, they now have more ways to consistently disrupt the opponent on turn 1.

    None of the reasons why it's better maindeck in the mono blue lists change the fact that it does the exact same thing in my list. I just don't need it nearly as bad because I have tons of other stupid broken stuff that I can more consistently do on turn 1, including more consistent casting of turn 1 Narset into LED/Echo because of Chrome Mox and the 4th maindeck LED.

    That deck is also much more capable of fitting Hullbreacher into the maindeck by virtue of cutting Sai, Master Thopterist for it (which is actually fairly weak on its own, especially when you compare it to Monastery Mentor, and certainly weaker than Hullbreacher during the first turn or two of the game).
    Last edited by Hanni; 11-16-2020 at 09:06 PM.
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    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
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    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  13. #33
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    I apologize to anyone who read through most of my ramblings today.

    At any rate, I deleted most of the massive walls of text and back and forth solo discussion that I had with myself.

    The long story short is that I recognize how powerful Hullbreacher is for this deck, and attempted to rationalize why I could or could not fit it into my 75, how many copies I should include, and whether they should be maindeck or sideboard.

    Ultimately, I decided that fitting 2 copies into the maindeck and 0 in the sideboard was the correct amount, cutting the maindeck Teferi for them.

    The maindeck Teferi were excellent in prior testing, but certainly did not have the same disruptive impact as Erayo or Narset + LED/Echo.

    That's not to say that Teferi wasn't disruptive; forcing the opponent to cast their instant speed spells at sorcery speed is surprisingly strong.

    Aside from turning off the opponent's countermagic, Terminus, and other effects that simply do not work at sorcery speed, Teferi also gave me maindeck answers to creatures, artifacts, and enchantments. Losing that may ultimately cost me some games, but I decided that I'd rather do more broken things in game one, and board into answers in games 2 and 3.

    The draw engine, and occasionally the mana boost (by bouncing Mox Opal), played nicely with Monastery Mentor triggers, but Hullbreacher is an animal.

    Hullbreacher is at its best when combined with LED/Echo for the Mind Twist, that also gives you 6 free Lotus Petals so that you're all but guaranteed to go for broke with the fresh hand you draw, assuming you don't draw a pile of garbage like all mana sources or whatever.

    Increasing the consistency of Mind Twist with LED/Echo is a big improvement, especially in games that make it to the midgame once both players hands are depleted. Giving the opponent a fresh 7 can oftentimes backfire.

    On its own, Hullbreacher is only mediocre against matchups without card draw effects, so I'm content running 2 copies instead of the entire playset. A 3 mana 3/2 flash isn't horrible, but it's not nearly as powerful as everything else in the deck. Obviously, against matchups where the opponent does run card draw effects, the card is absurd. Having flash allows you to get someone with it, whereas with Narset, they know to deal with Narset first. Flashing it in in response to Brainstorm is nuts; the opponent loses 3 cards and you get a 3/2 creature and 3 Lotus Petals. Obviously Notion Thief is a thing, but 2U for a 3/2 is a world of difference compared to a 3/1 for 2UB.

    So many decks these days are blue with cantrips, and this hoses them harder than Leovold due to the flash, with a significantly less restrictive cost and it isn't even legendary.

    Even non-blue (or lightly blue) decks are running card draw effects these days. Elves has Glimpse and Visionary, Hogaak has Faithless Looting and/or Careful Study, even most Lands decks are running Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath.

    Upon deciding to run Hullbreacher caused a chain reaction to the approach of my sideboard and manabase. Even now, it's not completely settled yet.

    As far as the manabase is concerned, without Teferi maindeck, and more creatures that have an overlap of creature type (Monk and Merfolk), it just makes sense to run 4 Cavern of Souls. Uncounterable Erayo, Mentor, and Hullbreacher is just ridiculously powerful in a format that is dominated by blue decks. Cutting 2 Ancient Den makes sense without Teferi, and having 4 Cavern of Souls makes using Engineered Explosives in the sideboard as an out to a Chalice on 0 a legitimate thing. While still a slim margin, it's not any worse than running Fragmentize with only 4 Ancient Den, and is a far better card in a much larger range of matchups. I'm also considering cutting the remaining 2 Ancient Den for Ancient Tomb now that there are more double colorless costs in the deck, but I think it drops my artifact count too low to enable metalcraft on turn 1, and my white source count too low, especially if I still want to fit Teferi in the sideboard.

    As far as the sideboard is concerned, Tormod's Crypt simply makes no sense. This deck has so much interaction against graveyard based decks as it is, with LED/Echo shuffling graveyards back into libraries, along with the more broad disruption package of Erayo and Chalice, with Force of Will and Negation in the sideboard. Not to mention Ashiok, Dream Render, which is almost always game ending if resolved on turn 1.

    Past that, I've gone back and forth on a number of decisions, but basically, my concern was finding the correct mix of answers to deal with Chalice on 0, Null Rod, Karn, and GSZ/Collector Ouphe, while still needing my answers to deal with Mother of Runes, Thalia, Plague Engineer, Marit Lage, Elves in general, Ensnaring Bridge, and Leyline of the Void to a much lesser extent.

    I believe bounce effects and Engineered Explosives deal with everything that I need to deal with.

    Bounce effects are a temporary effect, but that's typically all I need. The three best options are Brazen Borrower, Echoing Truth, and Chain of Vapor. I like the flash flying 3/1 body that I get after the fact with Brazen Borrower, and the ability to target myself with Chain of Vapor. Still not 100% sold yet on the correct configuration, but a versatile bounce effect serves my purposes better than narrower answers. For sure, the effect needs to be instant speed and either 1cc or 2cc. Teferi is a great card, but there are a lot of holes that a 3cc sorcery speed bounce effect does not cover. For now, I'm going with a 1/1 split of Brazen Borrower and Chain of Vapor.

    Engineered Explosives deals with everything else in a very powerful way. It can sometimes clash with my own Erayo at 2, but being able to sweep the board against Elves, Mother of Runes and AEther Vial, and a ton of other permanents against a whole bunch of other matchups makes it incredibly versatile and effective. The fact that it mills with Emry to be recast as a removal engine puts it way ahead of other options.

    Beyond that, the rest is still a toss up for me. Currently, I've decided to trim to 1 Teferi to go up to 2 Ashiok, and I briefly cut Ethersworn Canonist for 2 more Force of Negation, but then swapped back again, and am also considering Spellskite too. Not really sure what I want to do here, but it sort of feels wrong to not have Canonist in a UW deck with both Erayo and Emry, especially when it's Human creature type has overlap with Mentor for Cavern of Souls.

    Teferi is extremely versatile and does a number of things, but my white source count is a bit low, and Brazen Borrower already has me covered on bounce. The sorcery speed passive is incredibly strong in specific matchups, and still quite good elsewhere, but I already have Erayo to sort of turn off opposing countermagic most of the time, and Cavern of Souls to give my creatures uncounterability.

    On the other hand, Ashiok is a house in a large number of matchups when resolved on turn 1. Aside from shutting down fetchlands, a large number of common matchups have some number of spells or abilities that search through their library that Ashiok hoses. In addition, she provides repeatable graveyard hate in a format where the majority of decks are abusing their graveyard in some sort of way, and the fact that the mill 4 is effectively card advantage when it mills an Echo or relevant artifact for Emry recasting puts it over the top as a sideboard card. Arguably, it could even merit maindeck consideration, but I definitely do not have room for it, unfortunately.

    tl;dr I made a bunch of changes to the deck, and updated my list in the opening post.

  14. #34
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I think it has more to do with The Source being super dead these days, but still, I see activity on other threads, so I'm just going to assume it's because I have no MTGO or big paper tournament results with the deck.
    I've seen the deck online, and it's definitely potent. Your version with Erayo is fairly different. Erayo has always been a trap card in the past, but that might not be true now.

  15. #35
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    I've seen the deck online, and it's definitely potent. Your version with Erayo is fairly different. Erayo has always been a trap card in the past, but that might not be true now.
    Well, to be fair, that was because those old Affinity decks were running junk cards like Ornithopter, Phyrexian Walker, and Shield Sphere as free artifacts to trigger it, so most of the draws and topdecks were pretty bad, and the draw engines basically sucked.

    Erayo itself is incredibly powerful, countering the opponent's first spell cast on both your turn and their turn, every turn.

    This deck can very reliably cast Erayo and flip it on turn 1, which changes how powerful it is. The vast majority of the draws and topdecks in this deck are pretty powerful, and this deck runs a rather absurd draw engine to stitch it all together.

    Unlike the decks of old, this deck has much better mana acceleration, disruption, threats, and significantly better card advantage.
    Last edited by Hanni; 11-17-2020 at 07:19 AM.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  16. #36
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    I've seen the deck online, and it's definitely potent. Your version with Erayo is fairly different. Erayo has always been a trap card in the past, but that might not be true now.
    Erayo used to be a trap because it was not possible to both run enough cheap spells to trigger it on T1-T2 and also have enough gas to recover if Erayo gets disrupted (or even just establish a win condition once Erayo flips, because you're playing with an empty hand in topdeck mode with a deck of 0ccs). It forced you to run too much durdle and not enough business. I say this as someone who spent a good amount of time trying to make Legacy Erayo Affinity playable back in the day.

    But I think the new printings really change that. LED+Echo is a broken engine, with even more support from Emry and Narset. This shell can really draw cards! Overall the deck should be able to easily flip Erayo without diverting from its main plan or running bad cards. If Erayo gets disrupted, it has a strong ability to dig into more gas and keep going. Meanwhile Erayo provides another turn 1 hate piece to slow down other strategies while the rest of the deck does its thing. It also imprints on Chrome Mox and pitches to Force. If any deck can run Erayo, this one looks best suited for it.

  17. #37
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    I really want to fit Teferi back in the maindeck because it is so good at protecting Echo (or eating countermagic), protecting Mentor for long enough to generate a bunch of tokens so that removal becomes irrelevant, and bouncing problematic permanents.

    I also really like the idea of Wishclaw Talisman. It's an artifact, so it can be milled and recast with Emry, contributes to metalcraft, and tutors for whatever piece of the Mind Twist combo that I need to go off (or whatever else I need). It works wonderfully with LED, since I can crack LED and then tutor + cast that spell. It can be put into play on turn 1, setting up for powerful turn 2 plays. Teferi bouncing it back to hand breaks the symmetry. Ashiok postboard breaks the symmetry too.

    Unfortunately, the only way that I can see for fitting them in is to cut Chalice, and it feels really bad to do that.

    Regardless, I really like the idea of running Glimmervoid. I already have Mox Opal and Lotus Petal (and LED to a lesser extent), so I'm literally just a few more rainbow sources away from going 5c, which opens up so many more ridiculously powerful cards that this deck can run, especially in the sideboard.

    I think I'm probably okay losing the 2 Ancient Den in regards to my artifact count, but I'm not sure if I'd want 4 Glimmervoid and 2 Cavern of Souls, or vice versa.

    Glimmervoid at 4 copies is probably necessary to support the 5 color idea, and it does make me significantly more resilient to Chalice and Null Rod, to boot, but uncounterable Erayo is busted; uncounterable Hullbreacher and Mentor is also really strong too, so I'm still conflicted.

    On the other hand, if my 5c splash is mostly going to be for creatures (hatebears), I'm probably fine going with 4 Cavern of Souls instead.

    Going 5c opens up powerful sideboard options like Opposition Agent, Plague Engineer, Goblin Cratermaker, Abrade, Nature's Claim, Assassin's Trophy/Abrupt Decay, Ghirapur AEther Grid, Oko, Dack, Tezzeret, and a bunch of other very strong cards, like Veil of Summer and Pyroblast. Obviously, the 1cc spells (Nature's Claim aside) are only worth it if I do decide to cut Chalice.

    Defense Grid is also a very good sideboard option that I had forgotten about, which should probably find its way in vs blue matchups.

    If I don't cut Chalice or run Talisman, maybe it would be okay to cut 2 Mentor to fit back in 2 Teferi?

    So yeah, I'm most definitely still in the tweaking stage, and I will continue to evolve my list.
    Last edited by Hanni; 11-20-2020 at 09:29 AM.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  18. #38
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Erayo used to be a trap because it was not possible to both run enough cheap spells to trigger it on T1-T2 and also have enough gas to recover if Erayo gets disrupted (or even just establish a win condition once Erayo flips, because you're playing with an empty hand in topdeck mode with a deck of 0ccs). It forced you to run too much durdle and not enough business. I say this as someone who spent a good amount of time trying to make Legacy Erayo Affinity playable back in the day.

    But I think the new printings really change that. LED+Echo is a broken engine, with even more support from Emry and Narset. This shell can really draw cards! Overall the deck should be able to easily flip Erayo without diverting from its main plan or running bad cards. If Erayo gets disrupted, it has a strong ability to dig into more gas and keep going. Meanwhile Erayo provides another turn 1 hate piece to slow down other strategies while the rest of the deck does its thing. It also imprints on Chrome Mox and pitches to Force. If any deck can run Erayo, this one looks best suited for it.
    Completely agree. I tinkered around with Erayo Affinity too, and it sucked balls. The deck only had Thoughtcast to refuel its hand, which was in no way enough to offset the large number of horribly weak cards that the deck ran. At one point I tried out Glimpse of Nature, but that still wasn't enough, because despite drawing a handful of cards, they were all still super weak.

    This deck is a completely different animal. The deck churns through so many cards with its robust draw engine, and there are so many powerful cards that the deck can draw into.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  19. #39
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    I'm basically stuck, and keep coming back to where I was at before.

    Do I really want to cut 2 Monastery Mentor for 2 Hullbreacher?

    Hullbreacher is obviously busted when combined with LED/Echo, but Monastery Mentor is also really strong from that position too. Hullbreacher is stronger after LED/Echo because of the Mind Twist + 6 Lotus Petals, but Mentor making an army of tokens is still just as game winning most of the time.

    If the opponent has an immediate removal spell, I'm getting to at least make a token with Mentor, whereas I'd get nothing out of Hullbreacher, and if the opponent has an answer for Echo, Mentor is still very likely to end the game in a turn or two, whereas Hullbreacher is just a 3/2 until I can attempt to LED/Echo again.

    Hullbreacher is great when flashed in response to a Brainstorm, especially when cast off of a Cavern of Souls, so it's absolutely worth having against blue decks. Having more than just 4 Narset to break the symmetry of Echo is also a pretty important.

    But what's the move here? What do I cut for Hullbreacher? Do I need Hullbreacher maindeck?

    I really don't think Teferi is the cut. Teferi does way too much for this deck. Protecting Mentor from immediate removal effects, Echo from countermagic, bouncing problematic permanents and then drawing a card... it makes the deck function much better.

    So if I don't want to cut Teferi, and I don't want to cut Mentor, then I'm left looking at Emry, Erayo, Chalice of the Void, or the Bauble's.

    Erayo is a card I want to see in my opening hand as often as possible. It's not only the strongest piece of disruption the deck has, it's also the most resilient; it can be cast uncounterably with Cavern of Souls, and it dodges Force of Negation and Spell Pierce when cast without it. I really don't want to run less than 4.

    Cutting Chalice in a deck with zero 1cc spells and the ability to cast it reliably on turn 1 seems silly, but I do feel like both Erayo and Teferi are stronger disruption spells for this deck, so it's not completely out of the question.

    The Bauble's are probably too important for enabling turn 1 metalcraft to cut completely, despite being the weakest cards in the deck, but maybe I could cut down to 2 copies?

    Finally, there's Emry. Usually it's costing 1 mana, so it works beautifully well with the curve, and it digs 4 deep into LED/Echo. The ability to recast artifacts helps smooth out the mana, and can provide an additional trigger for Mentor every turn too. The combo with Bauble's (and postboard EE) is nice, but maybe I could afford to trim down to 2 Emry?

    Hullbreacher is actually pretty annoying to me right now. I had the maindeck completely figured out before, and now I'm in a position where I feel like I need to include this new card, but not really sure what to cut for it. Blah.

    Hopefully I can figure this one out.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  20. #40
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    A couple of changes. These might be temporary, considering I change my mind back and forth constantly, but this is where I'm at.

    Emry is the weakest card in the deck, I think. Digging 4 deep into LED and Echo is great, but the effect itself isn't necessary as a 4-of. Same thing with recasting artifacts; great, but not necessary. Costing one mana is great for the curve, though, so I'm not 100% sold yet. Trimming down to 2 still means I'll be seeing it often enough, just not as frequently in my opening hand, so hopefully that's fine.

    I just couldn't justify cutting anything else, and I'd rather have 2 Emry and 2 Hullbreacher vs 4 Emry 0 Hullbreacher, I think.

    I'm also going to try out 2 Glimmervoid in place of the 2 Ancient Den. It lowers my chance of hitting metalcraft on turn 1, but it improves my ability to cast Chain of Vapor to deal with Chalice of the Void, and it opens me up to run some additional creatures in the sideboard.

    Goblin Cratermaker is the most important, since it basically deals with everything that's problematic; Chalice, Null Rod, Ouphe, Karn, Plague Engineer, Thalia, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.

    Being able to run Opposition Agent and Plague Engineer is also something I want to try.

    I've edited the list in the OP to reflect these changes.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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