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Thread: UW Echo Stompy

  1. #41
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    A couple more changes I want to try out.

    With Hullbreacher now, I'd really like to try out the 2 Ancient Tomb again. There's enough critical mass to warrant them.

    Accelerating out a turn 1 Mentor off of 1 land and a Chrome Mox is nice, allowing me to make tokens with the remaining 0cc artifacts, etc.

    Unfortunately, that means cutting 2 cards. I don't have anything left to cut from the spells, so the cut has to be lands. I can't cut Synod's, and I need the Glimmervoid's (or Ancient Den's) to have enough colored sources for Teferi, so I have to cut 2 Cavern of Souls, unfortunately. I'm loathe to do this because of how strong turn 1 uncounterable Erayo is, but for now, I want to try it out.

    I feel like the consistency of broken turn 1's is going to go up with the Tombs, so it's probably worth it.

    I'm cutting the Plague Engineer for the 2nd Engineered Explosives.I'd rather go back to EE because I like how it deals with nearly everything I'd want it to, outside of the hardcore hate that I have other answers to. Being a removal engine with Emry is a huge bonus, too.

    There's also other Planeswalker options to consider now with Glimmervoid.

    Dack's +1 works well with Hullbreacher and Narset when targeting the opponent, and provides a discard outlet for Echo. Unfortunately the other abilities aren't strong in here, so I don't know whether it's worth it, so I'm not going to try it yet.

    Oko, on the other hand, should pretty much be ran. It deals with Null Rod/Ouphe/etc permanently if you get it down first, works well with all of the 0cc artifacts in this deck by converting them into 3/3's, can steal stuff, creates food tokens for melacraft and affinity... it probably should be maindeck, tbh, but I don't know how I would fit it yet. Teferi is a more important maindeck card than Oko for this deck.

    At the very least, I'm cutting 1 Ashiok for 1 Oko in the sideboard.

    With 1 Oko, and less Caverns to support Cratermaker, I'm going to trim 1 Cratermaker for a Dispatch. Having a 1cc instant that can exile any creature is a really strong effect to have access to. It may be smarter to run Swords to Plowshares since it's more consistent, but the lifegain could be relevant, and I'm built to enable metalcraft quickly anyway.

    Updated the list in the OP to reflect these changes.

    EDIT: With the amount of answers I have for Chalice, Null Rod, etc, it might be safe to cut the 2 Force of Negation. If I do that, I could run 2 Defense Grid, which would be a dramatic improvement vs blue matchups. The fastest way to lose to a blue deck is to go all in on an LED/Echo and have the Echo countered. I have Erayo/Teferi already, but 2 more cards I can cast before going off increases consistency, and these ones can be milled and recast with Emry. Plus artifacts for melacraft and affinity.

    EDIT2: Still considering at least a 1-of Spellskite for the sideboard to deal with removal heavy matchups, especially those with 3-4 Abrupt Decay. Turn 1 Spellskite + Emry does a pretty good job of protecting all of my permanents vs most spot removal. My only reservation is that it's not great vs Swords to Plowshares, which is everywhere these days.

    Mother of Runes is also a consideration, too, and has a much better creature type for Cavern of Souls, but it doesn't protect a flipped Erayo or other non-creature permanent from Abrupt Decay, which is the biggest alure to SpAffinity.

    For now, I don't know that I need to worry about dealing with decks with heavy removal, as those should be extremely positive matchups assuming I can protect my Echo's from countermagic.
    Last edited by Hanni; 11-27-2020 at 03:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  2. #42
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    LOVING the new changes, btw. The deck is starting to feel so streamlined at this point.

    With that aside...

    Veil of Summer is a consideration in place of Defense Grid for dealing with both countermagic vs Echo on turn 1, as well as Abrupt Decay vs Erayo.

    Pyroblast is also an incredibly strong card to consider as well, dealing with tons of problems.

    Abrade also deals with a ton of problems too. Cratermaker is a bit stronger, but Abrade costs less and it's instant, so the value is still incredibly high.

    Ancient Grudge is also a strong card, and plays well with Emry mill, so it at least deserves consideration.

    Lastly, Ingot Chewer is also a fantastic way for dealing with Chalice and Null Rod, but really needs the full 4 Caverns to be reliably castable.
    Last edited by Hanni; 11-27-2020 at 09:02 PM.
    Sligh
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  3. #43
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    The only slot I'm not sure about, and it's definitely metagame dependent, is Dispatch/Swords to Plowshares. This could also be Abrade, Veil of Summer, or Pyroblast, which are all extremely strong cards.
    Sligh
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    /r Miracle Intuition
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    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  4. #44
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Its quite the digression but I thought I would mention these since they function with the high CMC of affinity rather nicely.

    Make 4, 5, or 7 (Frogmite, Hollow One, Myr Enforcer)
    Burnt Offering
    Sacrifice
    Energy Tap

    Morbid Curiosity - Draw 4, 5, or 7 (Frogmite, Hollow One, Myr Enforcer)

    Rush of Knowledge - Draw 4, 5, or 7 refills the hand. Better in EDH affinity I imagine.. its a draw 10 with Broodstar or 11 Mycosynth Golem. Doesn't make as much sense though with EoE as a draw spell for 2 less, and LED as an enabler.

    I sort of like the idea of Steel Sabotage as a multi purpose spell. 1 cmc is low to the ground.



    On the subject of Hullbreacher.. It feels like Burning Inquiry and red. But then again, I like playing things like Delirium Skeins after I've dropped most of my hand. Been playing mostly EDH and cEDH these days.

    EDIT:
    Also EDH tech mostly but..

    Spellskite + Shaper's Sanctuary = draw cards (better with a high life total in EDH)
    Spellskite + Swarm Shambler = get there tokens (bolt hurts without Weather the Storm)
    Spellskite + Wild Defiance = EDH

    I wonder about Shaper's Sanctuary with all the spot removal in Legacy. If my opponent Lightning Bolts my creature and I draw, then they've really only slowed me down. The only problem with it is it feels so dead and its an awful topdeck. Probably not worth the combo potential. Spellskite + Swarm Shambler can make a lot of tokens, particularly if one is playing many artifacts and Weather the Storm. Its so good with a higher life total in EDH, and Legacy has way too many bolt effects in the Tempo builds to go this way I think.

    Again, its a slower format but cool EDH tech is Opposition + Monastery Mentor. Also, high cmc but worth mentioning that Greater Good can scale with this Monastery Mentor to draw lots of cards if you can drop alot of artifacts to keep the creatures high power and toughness, draw the deck and play most of it.

    Mystic Remora seems like it could be a decent way to spend extra mana after you don't need it anymore while the opponent is cantripping, sifting, Loaming, etc. Hex Parasite keeps Mystic Remora online for a good minute as well.

    Also, if you're in black or Mox Opal and Lotus Petals, Planar Void is a really cheap way of turning off graveyards.

    Also, in black. Dark Deal is pretty dope with Hullbreacher, though no Windfall or Wheel effects indicates the card was really built for EDH.

    My guess is playing Burning Inquiry will be better though. The opponent with no practice having to play with the Randomness is at a loss as to what they might draw, and it can cause a misplay or just frustrate the opponent and distract them. With Hullbreacher its basically better than a Hymn to Tourach and its a bad Ancestral Recall in the same play. From a different perspective that 2UR for +6 CA (ie. +3 CA and opponent's -3CA). If my opponent keeps the opening hand and then I drop most of my hand, and Burning Inquiry to mess with their opener, do they lose the only land or the key pieces of SnT, the tutor/LED for storm? Sometimes their hand gets better? If you want to play Hullbreacher I'd say Burning Inquiry is worth trying out.. It can turn on Hollow One rather nicely as well and it can bin the EoE. Learning to cope with the randomness has been worth it in my experience.

    Winds of Change (EDH tech) is perhaps worth considering as well since the deck can LED/EOE into a new 7 quite easily. Also, Winds can screw with the opponent's opening hand. Drop most of your hand, play Winds just to make them keep a new 7.. perhaps its awful. Also it has synergy with Hullbreacher.

    Entomb is so good with EoE. If you want to power out a bunch of Hollow Ones and then pass with a new opening hand, its a more consistent EoE turn 1. I feel like this gets better with Defense Grid, Hope of Ghirapur, Veil of Summer, or Silence to set up ALOT of EoE's in G2 and G3. Its just set up before making that play.

    Street Wraith makes it easier to play Hollow One if you wanted more consistency.

    I quite like EoE not just as a symmetrical Draw 7 but also as a way of resetting the graveyards.

    More EDH tech. Not sure if it matters, but Pull from Eternity is a great way of getting that EoE back into the graveyard. Also you can take it off a Chrome Mox, Delve it away, etc.

    Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh turns on Mox Amber, though it feels more like a card for Cheerios.
    Last edited by Vacrix; 11-28-2020 at 04:47 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  6. #46
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Okay, so for the first chunk of cards you listed, that would be more for a Spanish Inquisition style Affinity list without Chalice. The problem with a list like that is that it's all-in Belcher style, and the only improvement it has is a backup aggro plan while it picks up weaknesses to artifact and graveyard hate. The deck would fold massively to Force of Will, and would still fizzle and lose to itself too much even against interactionless matchups.

    Energy Tap is a really cool card though, and I'm surprised it's never seen Legacy play. Especially with Delve creatures, I could easily see that card being pretty strong in the right shell.

    The other Affinity threats, cc aside, aren't worth it for the cost.

    Steel Sabotage is a great card, but definitely too narrow for Legacy. It might deal with Chalice and Null Rod, but there are way more non-artifact cards that I need my sideboard answers to be able to deal with.

    Burning Inquiry and similar definitely play nice with Hullbreacher and Narset, but that would require a completely different deck. Some sort of Madness or graveyard based strategy utilizing Burning Inquiry as an engine, basically.

    The other little synergies are definitely not powerful enough for Legacy. There are way more powerful 2 card combos in Legacy, like Cephalid Breakfast and Painter, to even consider combining Spellskite with cards that don't outright win the game.

    Mystic Remora is a powerhouse in Vintage, but never really made a splash in Legacy. Not enough decks multicast spells every turn, and most decks don't have the mana ramp to handle the upkeep cost. Playing Deafening Silence or Ethersworn Canonist is a much stronger way to beat decks like Elves and Storm that do multicast spells, so Remora doesn't really make sense in Legacy. Again, 2 card combos need to be winning the game. Why Hex Parasite + Mystic Remora when you can play Vampire Hexmage + Thespian's Stage?

    Planar Void is completely unecessary and way too narrow. My primary engine already hoses graveyard strategies, and then I have a ton of other more versatile disruption that hoses those decks too, that I just don't need dedicated graveyard hate.

    Dark Deal and Windfall would be garbage in here, unfortunately. Anything that costs 3+ mana needs to be gamebreaking, and neither of those cards are. There are certainly advantages to discarding cards vs shuffling back in the library, especially for decks designed around it, with cards like Megrim or dedicated graveyard strategies, I guess, but that's not an idea I'm interested in exploring.

    I like that Winds of Change costs 1, but it's pretty much garbage on its own. It is red though, so it's certainly possible that some sort of URB deck could exist with Narset, Hullbreacher, and Notion Thief combined with Burning Inquiry, Winds of Change, Dack Fayden, etc, but I have no interest in exploring that idea either.

    Pull from Eternity is a viable card that has already seen Legacy play, but it's not something I'm interested in. It's a dead card until I've exiled Echo, and is way too narrow of a card in general regardless.

    Rograkh could certainly be a card for Cheerios, but is pretty pointless in here.

    Overall, my deck is already figured out. I make a few tweaks here and there sometimes, and there are a few cards I wish I could fit into the maindeck, like Wishclaw Talisman, but the list itself is already streamlined at this point. The goal is to accelerate into incredibly powerful disruption before casting even more overpowered cards that just win the game. Every card is already extremely strong on its own, and just gets increasingly more absurd as they combine with the other cards in the deck that they synergize with. The sideboard is mostly just answers for my opponent's answers, i.e anti-hate, with a couple of hatebears mixed in that are just too strong not to include.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
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    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  7. #47
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    I'm going to try out Eliminate in the Swords to Plowshares slot. Less efficient, but it doesn't get turned off by my own Chalice, and can deal with problematic Planeswalker's like Narset. Doesn't deal with Hogaak or Merit Lage, but I'm usually trying to race those decks vs deal with their threats, so we'll see.
    Last edited by Hanni; 12-11-2020 at 09:27 AM.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  8. #48

    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I'm going to try out Eliminate in the Swords to Plowshares slot. Less efficient, but it doesn't get turned off by my own Chalice, and can deal with problematic Planeswalker's like Narset and Karn. Doesn't deal with Hogaak or Merit Lage, but I'm usually trying to race those decks vs deal with their threats, so we'll see.
    Eliminate does not deal with Karn.

  9. #49
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittplayer View Post
    Eliminate does not deal with Karn.
    Good catch.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  10. #50
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    After looking at some of the mono blue lists, I see a lot of them trimming Narset for Hullbreacher. I appreciate what Narset does by digging into more business spells, but this deck doesn't protect its Planeswalker's too well without removal, and Hullbreacher making Lotus Petals definitely improves the mana. Being castable with Ancient Tomb is also a huge plus.

    I'm wondering if it might be smarter to trim Glimmervoid for more Ancient Tomb and cut 2 Narset for 2 more Hullbreacher. More colorless sources makes EE a viable answer to Chalice @ 1, and Hullbreacher making Lotus Petals should provide enough colored sources to cast the multi-colored cards. Popping out multiple Lotus Petals enables Thoughtcast in a great way, too.

    -2 Glimmervoid
    -2 Narset
    +2 Ancient Tomb
    +2 Hullbreacher

    I may be able to navigate away from Chain of Vapor now. It's main purpose was for dealing with Chalice for 0, which EE can now handle. I'd rather have more permanent removal like Abrade, I think.

    -1 Chain of Vapor
    +1 Abrade
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  11. #51
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    Brian Coval's List

    I was just looking at different variations of this deck and I noticed one on YouTube play through a league which had a very similar build to this list and wanted to share it with youse guys. I found the league play through very informative against some other match ups: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0GNRG6vWcY


    Creatures (15)
    4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
    3 Hullbreacher
    3 Monastery Mentor
    1 Sai, Master Thopterist
    4 Urza, Lord High Artificer
    Planeswalkers (6)
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    4 Karn, the Great Creator
    Spells (4)
    4 Echo of Eons
    Artifacts (17)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Mox Opal
    3 Urza's Bauble
    Lands (18)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    2 Karakas
    4 Seat of the Synod
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Tundra
    Sideboard (15)
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Walking Ballista
    2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
    1 Liquimetal Coating
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Brazen Borrower
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Force of Will
    1 Mycosynth Lattice

    Edit: Added link to cards following this post: I found a pinned post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Card-tags-(2-0!)
    Last edited by nikoaz; 12-31-2020 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Attempt at linking

  12. #52
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Thanks for the link, I will definitely watch it when I get a chance.

    Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is super sweet tech that I should most likely include in my sideboard.
    Last edited by Hanni; 12-28-2020 at 07:47 PM.
    Sligh
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    /r Miracle Intuition
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  13. #53
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    After more playtesting, I'm beginning to question Erayo and Chrome Mox. When Erayo flips turn 1, it's absolutely busted, but when you're topdecking into them they're really bad.

    Chrome Mox is great acceleration, but the card disadvantage is relevant. With Hullbreacher now, and less Narset, the need to produce 1UU on turn 1 drops significantly. They are critical for making Erayo work, but without Erayo, they are much less necessary.

    I'm not saying that I want to cut Erayo just yet, and even if I did, I'd still want like 2 Chrome Mox, but I'm just exploring other options.

    I feel like going back up to 4 Emry and maindecking 2 EE could potentially be a huge improvement for the function of the deck. Losing the broken turn 1 Erayo starts lowers the ceiling on power level, but more Emry + EE would dramatically boost the consistency, I think.

    The cut to Chrome Mox would be replaced with 2 more lands. Without Erayo, I'm not sure if I'd still want to be on Cavern of Souls, although it still seems pretty potent. There is certainly an argument for Ancient Den, Adarkar Wastes, Tundra, Glimmervoid, Karakas, and Island instead.

    I'll playtest some more. This deck is still very much in development for me until I land on a configuration that I'm happy with.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  14. #54
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Overhauled the deck a bit. Turn 1 Erayo flips are busted, but the frequency of occurrence is relatively low, they're not very good past the 1st two turns, they're horrible in multiples (but you have to run 4 for increasing the consistency of the turn 1 flips), and they are awful topdecks. Overall, I want to move away from them to explore other options

    Chrome Mox is great for enabling strong turn 1 plays and generally accelerating the deck (with colored mana to boot), but the card disadvantage is significant, and they are horrible in multiples. 2 feels like a much better amount, now that I no longer need 4 for Erayo.

    I've decided to replace the Erayo's with 2 Engineered Explosives and 2 Oko.

    The deck was definitely lacking in maindeck removal, and EE is such a fantastic card for dealing with the majority of permanents in Legacy. Without any 1cc or 2cc permanents of my own, it's almost always one-sided. Being recastable with Emry makes it a potential removal engine.

    Oko is the best planeswalker for a reason, and that's really not any different in here. It can come down turn 1, generate artifacts to enable metalcraft and affinity, steal opposing creatures, elk problematic artifacts/creatures, and is a pretty potent 3/3 token machine with the amount of 0cc artifacts that this deck runs. Overall, very pleased with Oko's performance.

    I trimmed a Hullbreacher for an Emry, so I'm on a 3/3 split now. Hullbreacher is great vs Brainstorm, okay vs other cantrips, and broken when resolving Echo, but they can also be extremely lackluster, and I feel like 3 is an acceptable amount.

    Emry is important not only for the curve, but it also helps dig into LED/Echo and generate card advantage, so I definitely want more than the 2 that I had cut down to before. I'd like to run 4, but there isn't really anything else I want to cut, so I'm happy trying out 3 for now.

    To make the mana work, I cut 2 Cavern of Souls (and the 2 Chrome Mox) for 4 Glimmervoid. I also retooled the sideboard a little bit. Lavinia was great tech that made its way in, and I also want to try Mystical Dispute. I decided to cut Opposition Agent for another Ashiok, because Ashiok fills a number of important roles beyond just shutting down the opponent from searching their library (despite not actually stealing anything).

    List in the OP has been updated.

    EDIT: Maybe trimming down to 2 Lotus Petal instead of 2 Chrome Mox would be better? Both are basically card disadvantage, but Chrome Mox at least provides a permanent mana source, whereas Lotus Petal is only temporary acceleration. Chrome Mox sticking around works better with metalcraft and affinity, although Lotus Petal works well with Emry...

    3/3 split, perhaps?
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  15. #55
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    Re: UW Echo Stompy

    Turn 1 Emry is very strong. Emry fills so many roles, not just recurring cards, but also digging into Echo and artifact gas.

    Sevinne's Reclamation might be good here with the white splash.

    If I was on UW, I would play into the combo more with Intuition and Sevinne, because Hullbreacher + Echo is just so broken, and it gets better when you can protect it with Teferi. That might be a different direction than you want to go though. The Hullbreacher combo is also much stronger when you can use those 7 treasures to ramp to 10 for Karn -> Lattice, Intuition/Narset into Karn -> Bridge, or hardcast Echo + flashback Echo until you wheel into Karn. Since you're not on Karn, you may not be able to convert 7 treasures into "win the game this turn", so you may not want the combo as much.

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