What's your current listOriginally Posted by Reeplcheep
It was added to the third post of the primer.
Mini TR:
Got 12th/72 in the Saturday challenge
I made small changes to the list. I expected lots of combo and snow, so I trimmed some oko removal for more gas. The most important thing vs control is drawing that second must-answer threat, so an extra curse target curse of fools wisdom and “Sylvan library” Treacherous Blessing was great. This does make your tempo Matchups worse but rug is already pretty bad. Plan was to dodge rug.
Opposition Agent continues to be game winning vs combo, control and base-green, but I do think it is better served in the sideboard. Mostly to avoid turning on opponents’ g1 plows. The smoothing of pelakka predation continues to overperform. The recent popularity of snow Hullbreacher (more arcanist, less decay) made leyline and chalice a lot better in control matchups than normal. Elspeth’s nightmare was great in the extra removal slot. With rug running y. Peezy over green creatures and arcanist/uro everywhere, it can often be a 2 for 1.
Matchups:
0-2 some snow variant
2-1 rector fit. 1: they played neoform plus deep glow skate for the instant ultimate off of arena rector. maximum jank, I love it. 2: Opposition agent is insane vs them.
2-0 some snow variant. Hard cast foolswisdom was actually pretty strong here if I remember correctly.
2-0 no-R loam. They just don’t have answers to a fast curse, I think they were running apparitions.
2-1 Rug Delver. Failed the dodge rug plan. Elspeth leads to a t2 helm kill through brainstorm & force of negation.
0-2 D&T. Kept hands that were a bit too land light and never drew out of them. Probably should have mulligans more aggressively instead of getting tempted by the 2x PE 2 lander. He went on to get 4th.
2-1 snow day. I think it’s silly that 4 slots makes a completely new deck in blue control land. Don’t remember games much, but he asked for a concession into top8 after losing g3. Is that BM? I thought it’s pretty haughty to not ask before g1. He ended up making top8 and then lost in finals anyways after I refused.
Overall very satisfied with the performance. hopefully this puts more spotlight on the deck as one of the best chalice or monoB decks in the format.
As you can see from my matchups, generally your life total is irrelevant and the games are all about engines right now. Sylvan Library is highly played for this reason. I was thinking of trying a jank list with 2 nesting grounds.
I was very high on this card when Ikoria was spoiled, but then companions happened...
Now that wasteland is at an all time low, the engine of nesting grounds plus treacherous blessing seems very attractive. With no 1BB spells at all and extra black sources in pelakka caverns, the opportunity cost of an untapped colourless source is pretty low. It offers raw card draw to power through the “force everything” play style rampant nowadays. Additionally Elspeth nightmare is a card I already want to play as an arcanist/uro answer; with nesting grounds it is a Defeat or Duress with buyback. Minor advantages would be resetting chalice if you cast it in the blind vs Urza or something. Or you can use it to save loyalty from legend ruled karns.
Yeah, that's ridiculous. The time to ask is before the match begins.
Congrats on your finish. Looks like the deck is back on the menu.
Same thing I posted on Twitter: a few leagues after the challenge I got another 5-0 with almost the same list. I feel pretty good about the meta position of the deck. Sideboard discard/agent and the extra curse improves the blue control matchup greatly, and you still destroy non-blue or unfair decks. Curse of Fool’s wisdom has been good vs control because sylvan library/Klothys/days undoing combo are being played more, which it shuts down. Additionally with games going longer drawing your targets is more likely. This both improves the quality of curse of misfortunes if cruel reality is drawn and is not unreasonable to hard cast if drawn itself in long games.
Depths, Stryfo, and RUG are the only matches where I feel like the underdog, but these matches are still more winnable than they used to be. Rug is easier since they have mostly switched to Young Pyromancer from green creatures, making them more vulnerable to Plague engineer. Opposition Agent has been a godsend for the depths and stryfo matchup. It also improved maverick/12 post so much I think they’re actually favoured post board.
List
Matchups
My time as a modern lantern player taught me how strong targeted discard is in prison. Theoretically, this is since prison quickly reduces the amount of relevant cards to a very small number. Vs snow for example basically all that matters are forces and ways to find forces through chalice (uro/library). I have tried non targeted discard in the past in curses like hymn and davriel but they usually have a ton of irrelevant cards to discard. The deck really wants Thoughtseize on a theoretical level but the chalice and ancient tomb non-bos are too strong I think. Hence I am trying the various alternatives like collective brutality, Agonizing Remorse and Elspeth’s nightmare. Collective brutality is the worst discard but is cute with fools wisdom and can kill ouphe/delver. Remorse is the closest to Thoughtseize but has minimal upside (minor gy hate). Elspeth has the highest upside (2 or 3 for 1 some of the time) but is expensive and slow. What do people think is the best?
An example of the discard being strong this league was t1 remorse taking their only creature interaction (FOW) into t2 agent steal a fetch. This single handily beat snowicles with a great anti prison hand (2 wilts, land plus fetch, cantrips, snap).
Last edited by Reeplcheep; 01-20-2021 at 09:47 AM.
I went back to curses Monday after flirting with Esper control and got an easy 4-1. The deck is great at beating the anti blue decks and slow blue can be beat with proper Sideboarding. Just gotta dodge or get lucky vs rug.
You can see the strength of the deck vs combo in this vid posted today
I make 2 critical errors (not saving pelakka for pulverize g1 and giving free storm with agent g2), but still manage to beat the best in the business.
I also added some thoughts to the primer in orange.
Last edited by Reeplcheep; 02-05-2021 at 09:14 AM. Reason: More exact timestamp
I would be interested in people’s thoughts about discard vs removal. The tempo of Eliminate is essential vs the top deck rug delver, and also good vs ur and d&t. However almost every other popular deck it is dead or bad compared to the more versatile Agonizing Remorse Vs snow and snow variants taking fow/uro is more important than killing one of their endless 3 drops. Vs elves and titanpost it is about equal. Vs oops, Doomsday, TEs, gaak, lands the exiling discard is amazing and the removal is dead.
In agreement with kinda gold fishing has shown 2 mana to be more important than cycling of memory leak or the removal of Elspeth’s nightmare.
In general I don’t win rug even with 4 eliminate so maybe it’s better to focus on turning my 55-50 % matchups (a+b combo and slow blue) into clear wins. What makes remorse a good maindeck card (ok but not amazing vs anything) makes Sideboarding weird due to lack of cuts. Maybe I add more karn bullets that I took out for lack of space. (Torpor orb for doomsday and crypt for gy decks)
Perhaps in a list with so much mana and so little card selection the flexibility of Thoughtseize is better than the tempo of removal. I’m not convinced Thoughtseize is better than chalice hence the 2 cmc version in remorse.
Draft:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Pelakka Predation // Pelakka Caverns
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Agonizing Remorse
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Curse of Misfortunes
1 Curse of Death’s Hold
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Fool’s Wisdom
1 Overwhelming Splendor
3 Plague Engineer
2 Opposition Agent
2 Soul Shatter
1 Torpor Orb
1 Tormod’ Crypt
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Mycrosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Liquimettal Coating
Any other good karn targets I am missing for this meta?
Juntu Stakes
Cheap elves/arcanist/y. Peezy answer
Armix, Filigree Thrasher
Wish-able Ouphe answer.
Welding Jar
Protect a Chalice?
Pithing Needle
If you cast karn with a mana floating.
Shield Sphere
Free elk Defense
Heart of Kiran
Elk/delver Defense.
Glad to see you're back on this.
Just watched the video. Good match. Game 1 I think playing out Predation as a land was not a mistake. You already saw their hand with Memories (no 3cmc) and you discarded the Burning Wish, so what were the chances they had a 3cmc to hit? They got lucky immediately cantripping into a 2nd Wish and another red source, then they chose to Wish for Pulverize the turn before using it instead of the same turn. If they hadn't found Wish so easily or hadn't held Pulverize for a turn, Predation wouldn't have mattered. That was the one narrow scenario where you needed Predation, just variance. Based on the information you saw, playing out Predation seemed reasonable. It was unlikely to have targets.
Have you cut Curse of Exhaustion? Bryant Cook played around you as though you had it.
Cruel Reality isn't bugged again is it?
How bad does the RUG matchup become if you cut Eliminate completely? What about a 2/2 split with Memories? Or some Eliminate in the SB? Using 3cmc Soul Shatter to remove 1cmc Delver seems like how you lose vs tempo.
For Karn targets, think about what would help you either win or not lose the game, because SB space is precious. Welding Jar and Shield Sphere seem too marginal. It's good sometimes, but enough to take a spot?
Needle seems bad with Chalice and sphere. The cases where you need it, don't have a resistor, and don't have enough mana for Spyglass are probably narrow. Record some games and see if it comes up often, but I'm guessing it was just a bad beat from variance.
Armix is an interesting answer to Ouphe stopping Helm. You could also Eliminate it, but if you cut all targetted creature removal from the 75 then you probably do need an out somewhere.
I appreciate your comments.
In hindsight I think you are right. The can win through chalice on 0, so playing to end the game as fast as possible is correct. If I had a trinisphere however they can only win by pulverize so I should have saved it.
I cut exhaustion a while ago since with the rise of doomsday it’s worse in combo matchups, and fools wisdom was printed which does similar things. Fools wisdom can be hard casted, answers Klothys and burn, and provides a secondary wincon if cruel reality was exiled to mox. No cruel reality bugs, but a few minor city of Traitors and agent ones.
Losing eliminate makes my Delver mu a bit worse and maverick/d&t mu a lot worse. Improves most other matchups though. Soul shatter is for turbo Tibalt and Marit Lage, perhaps should just be more spyglasses? Agreed it’s bad vs Delver.
Agree on the iffier karn targets.
Do you think armix is better than more removal in the board or ballista?
If tibber's is here for good, should Necromentia return to the deck? Possibly unmask too to get more turn 1 interaction.
They also have 4xVeil of Summer main to turn off Chalice @ 0 for a turn, so there were a lot of outs besides Pulverize. They could also Wish and cast Pulverize in the same turn, protecting them from discard, or be holding up Veil to turn off your discard. There were a lot of ways for them to win in that gamestate that Predation couldn't stop. Meanwhile you had nothing else out, so it seemed like you needed the mana to be proactive.
I thought they also had Abrupt Decay or Chain of Vapor too (for even more outs), but the Decays are in the board and they cut Chain completely from that build.
With a 3sphere game 1 (and their Decays in the board), then yes their only out is to Wish into Pulverize over separate turns, and they can't protect it with Veil, so that's where discard really secures the lock.
That makes sense. Other than Doomsday and Burn, which matchups are Fools Wisdom better in? Which are Curse of Exhaustion better in? Is Exhaustion only better vs Storm? Does it help low-curve matchups like Delver at all, or have you already won either way once you have Curses out?
Tough call. I would definitely run Armix if you stick with 0 Eliminate, because you need some targetted removal somewhere. Armix looks better than Ballista because Ballista can't kill Ouphe. Is there no Shriekmaw effect on an artifact creature?
Oh right, Turbo Tibalt. Soul Shatter's strong then. Is there room for some Eliminates while keeping the Soul Shatters and Engineers? That's where I think you have to be careful with the Karnboard because adding too many tools really cuts down your SB space. How often is Torpor Orb good?
Edit: I assume Necromentia was cut earlier because of the BB cost, and that doesn't help much vs Turn 1 combo decks.
Necromentia or unmask could return to the deck. Those seem to bleed more value than just playing more md spyglass however.
The other option is to cut chalice for 1 cmc discard as tomjab did above.
Yah I am in agreement.
Fools wisdom has been helpful vs control (additional wincon if curses are drawn in long games, punishes uro + karakas durdle) and vs Wheel decks. The primary benefit of fools wisdom vs delver/xerox is turning off sylvan library and Klothys which are big problems for this deck. Exhaustion is only good vs storm(very good matchup) and Omni (favourable, but splendor is almost as good vs them). Both are not great vs tempo though just because you are adding 1 more difficult to cast card to the deck.
The karn targets are just because the discard is always ok thus less cuts. If I ran more removal main board I would have more things to side out and thus trim on my karn package.
There is noxious gearhulk And duplicant, but I was worried that might be a bit expensive. Pith Driller and Exectuioners Capsule Are cheaper but worse options.
Yeah that makes sense.
Gearhulk and Duplicant both seem too slow. If you have the game state to pass the turn with Karn and play a 6 cmc, how often is Lattice or Bridge or Helm not enough to get there? You could also run something like Steel Hellkite as a wincondition / removal, but you already have such big haymakers.
I assume you need cards to help when those don't work: e.g. Ouphe stopping Helm/Lattice (because Karn would be an artifact) or weenies like Dreadhorde beating through Bridge. In those scenarios Executioner's Capsule, Walking Ballista and Pith Driller don't really do much. But Armix solves a lot. Armix seems worth testing.
Nevinyrral's Disk is also a card. Unlike Oblivion Stone, it doesn't kill Karn and costs less total to activate. But it doesn't deal with Ouphe.
Torpor orb is not completely necessary, but it is useful in most matchups where I’d want the 4th plague engineer. The upside is the free value game 1 vs doomsday, goblins, breakfast, and oops.
Armix could also do silly things with the madness on fools wisdom.
Banning affecting this deck:
Oko being banned is a big deal; we can win through it but chalice and 3ball are more likely to eat a force of will from the opponent, and thus our payoffs should resolve more frequently.
Astrolabe isn’t a huge deal for this deck, but making blue decks choose between B2B or decay is nice. More fair non blue though helps a bunch. lands, D&T and Loam are pretty good matchups that fell of the side of the earth. I’m not sure what the effect on uro will be, but I don’t see leyline being bad vs fair blue anyways; if they cut uro they are probably playing sevinnes and sanctuary. Delver is likely cutting arcanist for Gurmag or goyf
This deck was quite good against arcanist, but the card kept down slow combo a bit. More storm would be great for us.
Cascade change: Valki, God of lies was a massive problem for this deck since it dodged eliminate and chalice was dead. Now we can go back to eliminates over spyglass/soul shatter.
Overall this should mean less of our worst matchups (rug directly, Valki directly, depths because more wasteland decks) and more of good matchups (loam, d&t, storm).
I would likely go back to 4 eliminate 4 Pelakka 1 Fools wisdom in fleet slots. In my experience vs ur delver that Configuration actually has a decent shot of winning there and should be good vs the rebirth of Thalia decks.
Last edited by Reeplcheep; 02-16-2021 at 08:28 AM.
Good news for Curse players.
I expect to see less delver decks - our worst mu and arise of mavericks, loam decks & spell combos which is fine. Will try to change back main to 4cotv/4trini instead of 8 discards
yah well done with the success of discard. How has opposition agent md been? More blow-outs or more turning on dead plows?
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