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Thread: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

  1. #1

    Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)


    image courtesy of MTGGoldfish.

    Intro here. History, card discussion and matchup discussion below.

    Why play Curse Stompy?


    Curse stompy is a mono black, chalice based prison deck in a somewhat similar style to moon stompy or titan stompy. Similar to all stompy decks, it plans to use mana acceleration to play a disruptive prison card on the first turn and follow that up with an expensive threat to quickly end the game. If legacy is full of 1 and 2 mana spells, like all other stompy shells, playing chalice of the void on t1 is a good way to get free wins. It has generally great unfair and fair-non blue matchups. If you hate losing to dredge or TES, this is the deck for you! Most of the expense of the deck is froom the stompy staples, so if you already have moon stompy it is pretty easy to try out for a FNM.

    Why play this over other stompy decks? You have a more explosive opening than other stompy decks since dark ritual makes 2 mana instead of 1, leyline of the void is free instead of blood moon’s 3 mana, and you have a small chance of t1 kills. Your disruption is more multi-axis than other stompy decks, efficiently answering large creatures, planeswalkers, the hand and the gy. You go over the top of other fair decks; goblins can easily answer Chandra or a TKS but folds to a one-sided humility on t3. Game 1 you are creature-less providing a measure of card advantage vs removal.
    What are this deck’s weaknesses compared to other stompy decks? The deck has one of the highest curves in legacy, so it is more vulnerable to mana denial and daze than most other stompy decks. None of our disruption interacts with lands, only our payoffs, so fast land based decks (mostly depths) are very difficult to beat.

    Why play this over other fair black decks? The F.I.R.E ug apocalypse (oko, uro, coatl etc.) makes trying to grind out the opponent with efficient 2 for 1s like pox or jund a losing battle. All of our threats go over the top of fair blue; demanding an immediate answer or winning the game. This allows us to sidestep a large portion of the card advantage bullshit gifted to us by 2019 WOTC. Furthermore, veil of summer is a large problem for the traditional thoughtsieze/hymn, but chalice and trinisphere interact quite well vs that card. Traditional black decks like pox or grixis would be better if trying to efficiently 2 for 1 the opponent into the ground until they have nothing was a good strategy, but that type of interesting gameplay is dead forever.

    Why is Curse of Misfortunes a card worth building around? The card is essentially vintage build around oath of druids for 3 more mana. Yes, we are trying to resolve a 5 drop in legacy, which seems insane at first glance. However, stompy usually has more issues with card selection than with mana. Karn, the Great Creator has shown that having a 6-10 cmc (karn by himself doesn’t do much until you cast the card found) 1 card combo is great in stompy. Curses is essentially a 1 card combo with suspend 1 win the game in most matchups, does not require board control & is difficult for most decks to deal with once resolved. The opportunity cost of running the targets in a deck with chrome mox is quite low. Additionally, in a sol land deck the difference between 4B and 2RR is pretty small; its more like 4.5 mana.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 09-26-2020 at 09:42 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    History


    The very first list with the curses package. It's come a long way.

    After the creation of the first chalice aggro deck, they naturally expanded into all the color combinations. Moon stompy due to the strength of blood moon, steel stompy due to the easier mana and artifact synergies, soldier stompy due to thalia and co; and later 4c loam, eldrazi, titan stompy , & urza stompy. Black stompy always fell short for since its mana was bad (the best cards had multiple black pips) and its threats were easy to deal with (Lili is slow, desecration demon dies to plow). This was before I was playing legacy but several attempts were made involving actual demons, contamination stax, or even pack rat.

    The start of curses in legacy I believe is one of orim67’s crazy 5-0 brews.

    It was the first spot where people tried the package in a karn stompy shell. He didn’t develop the deck further,but it was streamed shortly after on ThrabenU’s twitch channel which is where I first saw it. Vod Here. He had a lot of fun, and got rid of the horrible chancellor – sorin combo as well as chrome mox (not enough black) and ran it back here:

    This is where I thought the deck had a lot of promise: Leyline over blood moon makes a lot of sense in a meta full of arcanist & astrolabe, and helm & curses go over the top of snowko instead of having your chandra’s die to elks. I did the majority of the brewing after this point. The main issues with thrabenU’s revised list above were that mox diamond and signets were too slow & inconsistant; I revamped the deck to support the moon stompy style mana base by adding chrome mox and another accelerant (dark ritual). I also cut the bridges for black count reasons as well as to have an answer to resolved permanents. I added 4 plague engineer because they help so much with sideboard mapping when your lock pieces are bad. There were several other things in the list that I tried and didn’t work but don’t bear mentioning. The deck was well positioned in the combo heavy breach meta; you can see the list here (ark4n 5-0’d the same week I had my first 5-0) and a vod here (t1 kill highlighted). During this stream chat suggested vault of whispers which proved to be a great inclusion.

    After that the companion spring happened and lurrus was insane; I tried to make a yorion build work. It was fun but always sketchy as an 80 card no cantrip deck; after the nerf happened I went back to monoB. After which with the resurgence of RUG I found dystopia & eliminate was printed to bring that matchup up from horrible to unfavourable. The deck preys on rug hate decks like hogaak, tes and dredge so I got lucky in pairings and got a challenge top 8 in this time. . Most recently zendikar rising released Pelakka predation // pelakka caverns which is the perfect utility land for this deck, providing a critical amount of smoothing and another angle of attack. Having both discard and removal also makes the deck more fun, as those are the traditional interactive spells of black midrange.

    Thanks to several people on the stompy discord @shevek, @Zio_tibia, @TaoTam @pettdan, and @ThrabenU to bounce ideas off of.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 09-25-2020 at 11:10 AM.

  3. #3

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Card Discussion.




    Sample list:


    8 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Karakas
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Karn, the Great Creator
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Curse of Death's Hold
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Cruel Reality
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Overwhelming Splendor
    4 Curse of Misfortunes
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Helm of Obedience
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Eliminate
    4 Pelakka Predation // Pelakka Caverns


    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Liquimetal Coating
    2 Dystopia
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Helm of Obedience
    1 Vault of Whispers
    4 Plague Engineer
    1 Necromentia
    2 Hymn to Tourach


    Lands:

    The land based is extremely similar to the tried and true moon stompy base (8 sol lands, 10-12 untapped lands), with a 1-5 more utility lands to support our higher curve without flooding.

    Ancient Tomb
    o Tap, pay 2 life: Add 2.
    o The best sol land. Play 4.
    o It is usually but not always worth taking 2-4 life to play around daze

    City of Traitors
    o When you play another land, sacrifice ~.
    o Tap: Add 2.
    o The second best sol land. Play 4
    o It is usually not worth losing city to play around daze, unless you know you will die imminently.

    Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
    o Legendary Land. All lands are swamps in addition to their other types.
    o Lifegain with ancient tomb, and helps cast BB spells. Play 1-3 depending on how many BB spells you have.

    Snow-covered swamp
    o Can’t be killed by wasteland.
    o Snow covered for the fringe situation where the opponent trades you a coatl and for bluffing. Or your favourite basic swamp; you do you. The fact you are reading this primer probably means you care about looking stylish more than that 0.02% winrate increase.
    o You need at least 10 t1 untapped black producing lands, fill up remaining slots based on how many urborgs you have.

    Pelakka Predation // Pelakka Caverns
    o Target opponent reveals their hand. You may choose a card from it with converted mana cost 3 or greater. That player discards that card.
    o Pelakka Caverns enters the battlefield tapped.
     {T}: Add {B}.
    o Newest addition to the deck, it’s the worst as a land but the best as a “spell”. It is considerably better than it looks; it has tons on flexibility functioning as a mana source, protection or acceleration (with chrome mox). It should not be compared to thoughtseize; it should be compared to ponder for thoughtseize, ponder for land or ponder for dark ritual.
    o Having a land that can trade with the only cards we care about (forces, oko, show & tell) with only 1 black pip and being immediately useful is extremely strong. Has mostly replaced the below utility lands. 3-4.

    Ifnir deadlands
    o Tap: Add 1.
    o Tap, pay 1 life: Add 1
    o Tap, pay 2BB, sacrifice a Desert: Put two -1/-1 counters on target creature an opponent controls. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
    o Lowest opportunity cost, weakest power. Uncounterable arcanist/delver killing. 0-1

    Castle Lochwain
    o Castle Locthwain enters the battlefield tapped unless you control a Swamp.
    o {T}: Add {B}.
    o {1}{B}{B}, {T}: Draw a card, then you lose life equal to the number of cards in your hand.
    o Strong ability but slow. I was playing it prior to pelakka predation. 0-1.

    Karakas
    o Legendary Land.{T}: Add {W}.
    o {T}: Return target legendary creature to its owner’s hand.
    o Purely played because the turbo depths matchup is so bad. 0-1.


    Spells:



    Spells:


    The main consideration with spells is to have at least 20 black cards for chrome mox. If you max out on helms and bridges you may have issues with imprinting on chrome mox, especially if you draw 2. Assume mainboard unless mentioned elsewhere.

    Dark Ritual
    o Arguably the best acceleration in legacy. Yes it sucks if you topdeck it with chalice out, but it makes you the best deck in the format at t1 trinisphere. 4.
    o Fixes colourless mana into black with 3ball out for dystopia etc…
    o More discussion about Dark Ritual & Chalice:
     I will be using this excellent article as framework to answer the question about why to play dark ritual in a chalice deck.
     Please think about when patriot was a deck to beat that played bolt & plow. Consider the following non-bos accepted in 2020 legacy: AdNaus & Echo, teeg & gsz, uro and basic plains, 3 of any legendary land, deafening silence & ponder. Its interesting to ask @maxtortion‘s questions about each of these, and if it matters more or less than drit & chalice.
     The answers to the 3 questions in the article are:
    1. This anti-synergy only matters after t1, when your chalice has not been dealt with, and only if you top deck it.
    2. It can matter but you do have 4 mox.
    3. Chalice & Drit are 1st and 2nd best at what they do, respectively.

    Chrome Mox
    o Stompy staple. Its probably the best card in the deck. Outlet for dead curse targets/dark rituals. 4.
    o You can exile karn to chrome mox if you need to get empty handed, but don’t expect it to do anything.

    Chalice of the Void
    o The reason to play this deck. 4.
    o You can kill it with Karn+ if you are desperate to dark ritual.
    o In paper: stop feelbads, remember your triggers.

    Trinisphere
    o Because of dark ritual you are the best deck in the format at getting this out t1. 4.
    o If you turn Trinisphere into a creature, attacking with it will cause the ability to turn off.

    Leyline of the Void
    o The premier black hate card. Against almost every deck this will at least be annoying, which is insane for a 0 mana spell. And 10% of the time it wins you g1 by itself. 4.
    o Leyline prevents dies triggers such as the one from Mogg War Marshall.
    o Usually it is correct to put the first 1 into play t0 in the blind, but the second should be kept for chrome mox. Occassionally you may need to keep the first 1 for chrome mox so don't autopilot.

    Ensnaring Bridge
    o We usually lose to mana denial and can easily get cards stuck in hand. Still quite good vs Eldrazi and Marit Lage. 0-2 main, 1 side.

    Eliminate
    o 1B Instant. Destroy target creature or planeswalker with cmc 3 or less.
    o Answers cards that traditionally prove difficult for stompy to beat (big creatures like goyf, cheap planeswalkers like oko) efficiently, without conflicting with chalice. Play 4 unless you are in a meta with no aggro or tempo.

    Murderous Rider // Swift End
    o 1BB instant. Destroy target creature or planeswalker. You lose 2 life. (Then exile this card. You may cast the creature later from exile.)
    o 1BB. 2/3 Lifelink. When Murderous Rider dies, put it on the bottom of its owner’s library.
    o Additional eliminates that also draws you a great blocker. 1BB is rough on the mana base however and I prefer pelakka predation above as an additional pw removal/expensive creature removal. (0-2 main or side)

    Soul Shatter
    o 2B Instant. Each opponent sacrifices a creature or planeswalker with the highest converted mana cost among creatures and planeswalkers they control.
    o A recent upgrade to To the Slaughter, this is an option if you need your PW removal to also deal with Marit Lage. Ignoring veil of summer & cheap creatures like elemental tokens is a nice bonus. (0-2 main or side)

    Plague Engineer
    o 2B. 2/2 Deathtouch. As Plague Engineer enters the battlefield, choose a creature type. Creatures of the chosen type your opponents control get -1/-1.
    o The best 2B hate piece probably ever, it is especially good when chalice and trinisphere are bad. 4 between main and side.

    Helm of Obedience
    o Artifact, 4.
    o {X}, {T}: Target opponent mills a card, then repeats this process until a creature card or X cards have been put into their graveyard this way, whichever comes first. If one or more creature cards were put into that graveyard this way, sacrifice Helm of Obedience and put one of them onto the battlefield under your control. X can’t be 0.
    o Since you are playing Leyline anyways, activating this with Leyline out for X=1 or more will exile the opponents entire library. This is true even if the opponent has a Progenitus in their library; they must choose a different replacement effect once they are looping shuffling Progenitus back into the library.
    o If you don’t have Leyline, fairly activating it can buy you an emergency blocker, steal a griselbrand vs s&t or BR reanimator, steal a creature for the last few points of damage if they are too greedy with library, or slowly mill the opponent out if they are creatureless. I have won multiple times in each of these ways, however it is usually better to try and wait for the Leyline topdeck.
    o It’s the worst of the wincons by itself however so trim it first if your curve needs to be lowered. 1-3 MD, 1 side. Side in the helm if Karn passive/Coating is already gg or if Karn is sided out.

    Karn, the Great Creator
    o A staple of any deck in any format with ramp or fast mana, you know what this does. 4.
    o This card is extra important in this deck as we otherwise have difficulty interacting with lands.
    o Helm combo means running him out into a board where he will die, as a 4 cmc tutor, is often correct.
    o Remember that Karn can get bog’d or force of negation’d artifacts too.

    Curse of Misfortunes
    o 4B Enchantment. Enchant player. At the beginning of your upkeep, you may search your library for a Curse card that doesn’t have the same name as a Curse attached to enchanted player, put it onto the battlefield attached to that player, then shuffle your library.
    o It is the namesake of the deck. Play 4. Some basic aura rules:
     Attaching does not target and does not use the stack. Veil/Leyline of Sanctity do nothing to the trigger. They cannot fetch if they see you getting overwhelming splendor after they let the trigger resolve. This also applies to any curse coming down off of show & tell.
     Casting an aura does target. Don’t get blown out by veil. Always target the opponent.
     Aura’s will died as a SBA if turned into a creature. Don’t plus your Karn on them if they are an artifact.
    o Due to its wording, if the OP force of vigors your curse of misfortunes in response to the trigger it can get another copy of curse of misfortunes.

    Overwhelming Splendor
    o 6WW. Enchant player. Creatures enchanted player controls lose all abilities and have base power and toughness 1/1. Enchanted player can’t activate abilities that aren’t mana abilities or loyalty abilities. 1.
    o Primary target, this beats most non-storm decks by itself. Unfortunately it is uncastable; exile it to chrome mox if you have enough black sources.
    o Remember the last line affects a player, not a group of permanents. Fetchlands, Wasteland, Vials, and even cards in hand with cycling.
    o As a humility effect you will have to learns lots of layers issues. The most common ones: Elks made before it are 1/1s, elks made after it are 3/3s. Magus of the Moon and Painter’s Servant’s abilities will not be turned off. 0/0 creatures like walking ballista will become bigger.

    Curse of Death’s Hold
    o 3BB. Enchant player. Creatures enchanted player controls get -1/-1.
    o The least impressive but cheapest curse, it forms a hard lock with splendor above. Considering how good plague engineer is in legacy, just hardcasting it can win games vs some decks such as Goblins. 1.
    o If you expect removal or are about to die to a wide board sometimes it is correct to get this one first, as it has the most impact if immediately removed.
    o Plus-ing karn on a 1 cmc artifact (for example pithing needle on helm) will kill it with curse of death’s hold in play

    Cruel Reality
    o 5BB. Enchant player. At the beginning of enchanted player’s upkeep, that player sacrifices a creature or planeswalker. If the player can’t, they lose 5 life.
    o Handles the few permanents that can beat the above lock (planeswalkers, +1/+1 counters) as well as actually finishes the game. 1.
    o When against a combo that doesn’t use permanents much like storm, it is usually correct to get this first to speed up your clock.

    Primarily Sideboard cards

    Sorcerous Spyglass
    o A powerful card against our worst matchups (depths/stryfo/rug), but eliminate is more flexible. I find having more than 12 do nothing hate pieces (chalice/3ball/leyline) MD can lead to games where you just never draw threats and die to that t1 delver. Note that the peek effect is significantly more valuable when curving into a pelakka predation. 0-2 MD, 1 SB
    o Although you have one in the sideboard as part of the karn package, feel free to side it in for Wasteland or Marit Lage matchups.

    Vault of Whispers
    o Artifact Land. {T}: add {B}
    o Allows Karn to get a coloured mana source to hit 5 mana through Trinisphere. 1 SB.
    o This allows you to helm combo with just leyline, karn and 4 mana; get helm with one activation and vault with another to activate it.
    o This can also come up if you have to lose your City of Traitors to play karn.
    o Using Karn + on this will cause a death trigger. Notably, this will exile opposing Bridge From Belows.
    o Feel free to side this in vs mana denial or slow control decks, where you want more permanent mana sources.

    Liquimetal Coating
    o Allows you interact with lands, extremely powerful with Trinisphere. Don’t side this in ever. 1 SB.
    o Minus-ing with karn immediately to get this allows you to start killing lands faster. It does leaves you at risk of being blown out by bolt or a hasty coatl/elk. Consider the risks and rewards.
    o Using Karn + to kill lands with this will cause a death trigger. Notably, this will trigger opposing Bridge From Belows.

    Tormod’s Crypt
    o A great Karn target vs graveyard decks. However, we are already so favoured vs them that sideboard space is usually better served elsewhere. 0-1 SB.
    o Can be used on yourself to buy back countered/destroyed artifacts.

    Mycrosynth Lattice
    o Turns Karn into 10 cmc win the game. 1 SB. Don’t side this in.
    o This is not recommended vs collector ouphe. Vs null rod this can still be a win if the opponent has no board, no field of the dead/dryad arbor/emrakul in library and less cards in library.
    o This is the only way you can hardcast overwhelming splendor; which has come up for me once or twice.

    Hymn to Tourach
    o BB is extremely difficult to cast, but against decks which are not attacking your mana it is fine to side in a few. I value non-disenchantable sideboard cards highly; you want 2-3 discard spells between this and the ones below. This the most flexible discard spell but it has the least impact. 0-3 SB.

    Dreamstealer
    o 2B. ˝. Menace. Whenever Dreamstealer deals combat damage to a player, that player discards that many cards. Eternalize {4}{B}{B} ({4}{B}{B}, Exile this card from your graveyard: Create a token that’s a copy of it, except it’s a 4/4 black Zombie Human Wizard with no mana cost. Eternalize only as a sorcery.)
    o A discard spell that is easier to cast and is quite effective vs control sitting on a pile of counterspells. It is quite slow however. 0-3 SB

    Necromentia
    o 1BB. Choose a card name other than a basic land card name. Search target opponent’s graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. That player shuffles their library, then creates a 2/2 black Zombie creature token for each card exiled from their hand this way.
    o The best sad sac effect since it can target dark depths. It is the best discard spell vs A+B combo & graveyard decks, the worst one vs control. 0-3 SB.
    o I have never done this, but against some decks naming a dual that is not yet in play could completely take them off a colour.
    o You can die to the zombie you give them, but it is usually better than giving the opponent a random card.

    Chains of Mephistopheles
    o An alternative to the discard mentioned above if you want additional blue hate. 0-2 SB.

    Dystopia
    o 1BB. Cumulative upkeep—Pay 1 life. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.). At the beginning of each player’s upkeep, that player sacrifices a green or white permanent.
    o Handles snowko/rug delver bullshit effectively. The only card in the format that trades evenly with Oko + elk. It will also deal with goyfs/library/Klothys/Uro which can be a pain for you. You can’t run too many though because it doesn’t answer delver. 2 SB
    o It happens to also be great against Thalia decks and decent vs elves/enchantress, but that’s not the reason they are in your sideboard.
    o It is removal for leyline of sanctity if you know your opponent is running those.
    o If curse of misfortunes & dystopia are triggering at the same time, stack the triggers so that the sac and fail to pay upkeep triggers resolve before you search and put in splendor (a white permanent) into play.
    o If Cruel Reality & Dystopia are triggering at the same time, stack the triggers so that you give the opponent the smallest amount of options. Specifically, order it such that the cruel reality trigger resolves first if they have a green or white non-creature permanent or that the dystopia trigger resolves first if they have a red/blue/black/colourless creature.
    o Remember that sylvan library & klothys both trigger after the upkeep step; they will not get the effect if they sac it to dystopia.
    o When deciding to pay for it with no targets, consider if it would be worth paying upkeep twice to kill something. Table below:
    Age counter you are adding this turn 1 2 3 4 5 6
    Life to kill something played next turn 3 5 7 9 11 13

    Curse of Exhaustion
    o 2WW. Enchant player. Enchanted player can’t cast more than one spell each turn.
    o Gives us a great curse target against storm which usually can ignore splendor. However, those decks are already so favoured sideboard space is usually better served elsewhere. 0-1 SB.

    Rejected cards

    Liliana of the veil (And other 1BB planeswalkers such as ashiok)
    o Although one of the more powerful cards in black, we have a high curve so the plus is detrimental and 1BB cards are difficult to play early without dark ritual.
    o If we are playing a 1BB card, I want it to beat an oko. See murderous rider above.

    Wasteland
    o You have one of the highest curves in legacy.
    o If you are playing spyglass MD, you are probably naming this card.

    The Abyss
    o Great in a creatureless deck, but I want all my >3 cmc cards to win the game or at least beat oko.

    Nether Void
    o You have one of the highest curves in legacy.

    Curse of Fool's Wisdom
    o Historically, it is an additional win con when MTGO is bugged and cruel reality doesn’t work.
    o Can cover for one of the good curses being exiled to chrome mox.
    o Answers klothys/burn/combo which otherwise can be an issue.
    o Overall too weak to be worth the extra dead draw.

    Bitterblossom
    o The days of this being good vs control are gone. It loses to oko & uro, especially in an ancient tomb deck.

    Treacherous Blessing
    o An effective 2 cmc draw 3 in this deck, but it is too likely to kill yourself.

    Elspeth’s Nightmare
    o Does a Kolaghan’s command impression, but a bit slow and a poor topdeck.

    Lotus Petal
    o I know dark ritual & chalice looks bad, but the extra velocity and black count is essential.

    Crucible of Worlds
    o Better suited for a grindy stax deck, we are trying to go over the top of the opponent. Wasteland and fetches are bad in this deck.

    Feed the Swarm
    o Black gets enchantment removal now, but the enchantment we care about most is klothys.
    o Worse than dystopia in most situations.

    Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    o Legendary Land.{T}: Add {C}.
    o {1W}, {T}: Put target enchantment card from your graveyard to the top of your library.
    o Extremely powerful vs control, but requiring a small splash and producing no coloured mana screws up your mana too much in other match-ups. 0.

    Ill-Gotten Gains
    o Although it does combo with leyline of the void, it is significantly worse with leyline than helm and not much better than helm without leyline.
    o Compared to DETH our fair IGG are really bad since we don’t have LED or Tutors.
    o Being black for Chrome Mox is not enough of an upside to outweigh the above downsides.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 10-05-2020 at 11:12 PM. Reason: added text sample list; added minor details and play advice

  4. #4

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Matchups & Sideboard map

    Generally matchup difficulty will be based on how much they care about our disruption, and how easily they answer our payoffs. This is based partly on feel, but I also have tracked my last 350 matchs since the companion nerf by matchup. There are basically 4 major groups of matchups:
    • fair non-blue (favoured) you are favoured and you take out lock pieces to become a weird black control list,
    • vs slow blue (even) you take out mana for discard and threats
    • vs combo (very favoured) you take out removal for discard
    • and vs fast blue (unfavoured) you remove karn for faster answers.
    This is assuming my most recent list, going from hardest to easiest:


    Very bad:
    • Depths. Nightmare matchup.
    o They can win without casting any spells or using the graveyard, they have discard for our payoffs, we don’t have wasteland or plow or blood moon, and they are fast.
    o You are usually just barely too slow on finding splendor or bridge.
    o Not extremely common, so although there are several sideboard options such as karakas/soul shatter/necromentia/spyglass it is not worth making this matchup your primary consideration.
    o – 4 Eliminates – 4 Trinisphere + spyglass, +3x plague engineers, + necromentia, + helm, hymn.


    Bad:
    • RUG Delver. Unfavourable
    o The deck is quite good for a stompy deck against the arcanist/oko/goyf part of the deck, but our high curve can be a liability vs the daze/wasteland/delver part of the deck. Every card in our deck is pretty devastating to them if it resolves, but sometimes nothing resolves.
    o – karn (too slow, requires board control) + spyglass + bridge + vault + helm – 2drit + 2 dystopia. Additional dark rituals (OTP) or trinispheres (OTD) can be sided out for a few plague engineers depending on their arcanist count.

    • Maverick. Unfavourable.
    o Our deck relies on expensive enchantments being hard to deal with once resolved, and they usually have gsz for gaddok teeg & ouphe & knight of autumn MD.
    o They also don’t care much about chalice & trinisphere, and care less about plague engineer than other thalia decks. Main way to win is t1 or t2 karn/curse/helm kill before they have they have the mana to gsz for KoA.
    o -4 chalice -4 trinisphere, +4 plague engineers, +vault + spyglass + 2 dystopia

    • Stryfo Pile. Unfavourable.
    o 4 Trophy makes it easier for them to beat resolved threats, and they care less about chalice and trinisphere than other blue control decks.
    o Leyline is quite effective against them however.
    o The clock is quite slow and they often play 80 cards so you can still cheese them t1 or slog through all their counters.
    o If you are running chains, don't bring it in vs the 4x Dack deck.
    o -4 Drit, -4 Chrome mox. + 2 hymn + helm + spyglass +2 dystopia + 1 plague engineer + vault of whispers


    Around even:

    • Other delver/ninjas. Slightly unfavourable.
    o Similar to rug, but no oko means they are both significantly more vulnerable to chalice and trinisphere, and more vulnerable to plague engineer out of the board.
    o – karn (too slow, requires board control) + bridge + vault + helm – 2drit - Overwhelming splendor (death’s hold should kill most creatures in UR) + 4 plague engineer

    • Snowko. Slightly Unfavourable.
    o They have a lot of forces and oko but they care about all our cards. With no wasteland and daze you can often just keep casting “win the game” cards until they run out of naturally drawn force effects. Pelakka Predation is a big pickup here to take that last fow out of their hand.
    o Plan is to remove fast mana for threats.
    o -4 Drit, -4 Chrome mox. + 2 hymn + helm + spyglass +2 dystopia + 1 plague engineer + vault of whispers

    • Eldrazi. Even.
    o They don’t care about any of your disruption, but they can’t interact much with splendor or bridge or helm kill. Compared to other tribal decks they care much less about plague engineer.
    o Keep a fast threat hands; interactive hands are usually bad.
    o -4 chalice -4 trinisphere. + 4 plague engineer, + spyglass, + vault, + 2 hymn.

    • 12 post. Even.
    o Similar to eldrazi. Curses is less devastating to them but karn is game over usually.
    o T1/T2 karn or helm kill or bust. Sometimes t1 curse or t2 curse OTP is good enough.
    o -4 chalice -4 trinisphere. +spyglass + vault + 2 hymn + 1 helm + necromentia + 2 plague engineer.

    • Stoneblade. Even
    o This is a similar matchup to snowko. Dystopia is worse but plague engineer is much better. Eliminate is quite awkward here since it can’t answer jace.
    o -4 Drit, -4 Chrome mox. + 2 hymn + helm + spyglass +3 plague engineers + vault of whispers.

    • Esper Vial. Even.
    o Similar to stoneblade. Venser + soulherder is often unbeatable. Nevertheless, a good deal of their deck is irrelevant in the mu and they are clunky and slow. Priority with spyglass is usually 3feri if they don’t have a vial.
    o -4 Drit, -4 Chrome mox. + 2 hymn + spyglass +4 plague engineers + vault of whispers.

    • Infect. Slightly favourable
    o As the “delver” deck that is the most vulnerable to plague engineer, games 2 and games 3 are pretty easy as you just present a wall of removal.
    o -4 karn -4 leyline -2 helm + 4 plague engineer + 2 dystopia + vault + spyglass + bridge +2 hymn

    • Death & Taxes. Slightly favourable
    o Game 1 is somewhat unfavoured in the dark, just because you can keep a hand based on the strength of chalice/3 ball and they can ignore those cards. Game 2 is favoured because you have so many hate cards they have trouble beating. That only averages out to slightly favoured though.
    o The main way you lose is to mana denial + thalia, so hands should be either very fast or have a resilient mana base.
    o -4 chalice -4 trinisphere, +4 plague engineers, +vault + spyglass + 2 dystopia

    • Sneak and Show. Slightly favourable.
    o You often win if they go for show & tell, but you don’t have many good answers to sneak attack. This is a matchup to not pitch splendor to chrome mox if you can.
    o -4 Eliminate -1 curse of deaths hold, +1 helm +2 hymn +1 necromentia + 1 spyglass

    • Burn. Slightly favourable.
    o Your t1 chalice or trinisphere can be game over, but since they can win through splendor sometimes your closing speed is just a bit too slow.
    o – 4 karn -2 pelakka predation -1 curse of misfortunes -1 overwhelming splendor + 2 hymn + 4 plague engineers + 1 helm +1 bridge

    • BR Reanimator. Slightly favourable
    o You are a maindeck leyline deck, and they also can have issues beating trinisphere/splendor/chalice. However, chancellor of the annex means they sometimes can just be too fast, especially game 1 in the dark. Reverent silence can be a beating, but pelakka predation and trinisphere can protect you.
    o -4 eliminate, + 1 necromentia + 2 hymn +1 spyglass.


    Good:

    • Moon stompy. Favourable
    o Your finishers beat their finishers, and they don’t have the sideboard space to take out all their dead cards unlike yourself. If they are running less rabbles it gets a bit harder.
    o -4 chalice -4 trinisphere. + 4 plague engineer, + spyglass, + vault, + 2 hymn.

    • Urza Echo. Favourable.
    o They are fast but vulnerable to our own hate pieces and our finishers beat their finishers. If you lose its usually to the nuts t1/t2 karn + force backup. Eliminate’s cmc restriction is most annoying here.
    o -4 eliminates + 2 hymns + spyglass + helm

    • Doomsday. Favorable.
    o Compared to other storm, 3ball is not just gg and they have force of wills. But our lock pieces are still quite devastating and they can’t beat splendor.
    o If they doomsday when you have a helm out, it becomes a fun minigame of guessing where they put their oracle and where they put their street wraiths.
    o -4 Eliminate, -1 Curse of Deaths' Hold, +spyglass, +1 helm +2 hymn +1 necromentia.

    • Elves. Favourable.
    o This used to be a cake walk, but allosaurus shepherd made the matchup a bit harder. Remember that removing the shepherd in response to a chalice trigger can result in a 2 for 1. You can also lose to the fetch 2x arbor, natural order for progenitus cheese.
    o Chalice, humility, removal, trinisphere, plague engineer are all cards they hate to see, the challenge is what to cut.
    o -4 karn -4 leyline -2 Helm + 2 dystopia +4 plague engineer + spyglass + ensnaring bridge + 1 hymn + necromentia (for NO)

    • Omnitell. Favourable.
    o Like sneak and show, but they have to show & tell. Trinisphere is also significantly better here.
    o -4 Eliminate -1 curse of deaths hold, +1 helm +2 hymn +1 necromentia + 1 spyglass

    • Lands. Favourable.
    o Haven’t played against them with valukut exploration, so this may be subject to change.
    o Why this is so much better than depths is that they are slower, meaning you have that extra turn you need for your payoff to win (by grabbing splendor or bridge), and they don’t have discard so your wincon is more likely to resolve in the first place.
    o Chalice on 2 is very important in the mu; keep a hand that can get under a wastelock.
    o -4 Trinisphere -4 eliminate. + vault, + spyglass, + helm, +2 dystopia + necromentia + 2 plague engineers.

    • Painter. Favourable
    o A combo that cares about chalice, splendor, eliminate, karn & often plague engineer/leyline of the void? Sign me up.
    o The only reason this is not very favourable is that you don't have a ton of good answers to their t2 karn. This is due to us running eliminate as our primary removal spell now.
    o – 4 trinisphere + necro + spyglass + 2 hymn

    Very Good:

    • Hogaak. Very Favourable.
    o You are a maindeck leyline deck, and they also can have issues beating trinisphere/splendor/chalice. Force of Vigor is quite rough, but pelakka predation and trinisphere can protect you. Remember killing lands triggers bridge from below. Unlike the other graveyard decks, they often will not be able to win in 1 turn so you can slow roll your second leyline sometimes.
    o -4 eliminate, -4 karn, + 1 necromentia + 2 hymn, + 1 ensnaring bridge + 1 helm +3 Plague Engineer

    • Dredge. Very Favourable
    o You are a maindeck leyline deck, and they also can have issues beating trinisphere/splendor/ensnaring bridge. No force of vigor/reverent silence makes this easier than other graveyard decks.
    o -4 eliminate, + 1 necromentia +3 plague engineer.

    • Goblins. Very favourable
    o They are extremely vulnerable to our payoffs, and have no counterspells, and die to plague engineer.
    o The way you lose this is G1 keeping an all lock piece hand, or getting t1 lackey -> muxus cheesed.
    o -4 chalice -4 trinisphere. + 4 plague engineer, + spyglass, + vault, + 2 hymn.

    • ANT. Very favourable.
    o We are the best t1 trinisphere deck in the format, and one of the best t1 karn deck in the format. Occasionally they can get us with discard though. And the rest of our cards like leyline of the void are still annoying.
    o -4 Eliminate, - 1 splendor -1 curse of misfortunes, +1 helm +2 hymn +1 necromentia +2 plague engineer.

    • Cephalid Breakfast. Very Favourable
    o A combo that cares about chalice, leyline of the void, splendor & plague engineer? Sign me up.
    o – 4 trinisphere + 4 plague engineer

    • TES. Dream Matchup. (Currently 11-1)
    o We are the best t1 trinisphere deck in the format, and one of the best t1 karn deck in the format. Since TES has gotten a bit slower and cut their discard, they don’t really have a way of answering that. And the rest of our cards are still relevant.
    o Vivarus recommends cutting veil vs chalice decks, so chalice on 0 is usually safe game 2 or game 3. You might get t1 cheesed once, but they can’t usually win both post board games like that. Past t1 the only way you are losing is pulverize, so prioritize mountains with liquimetal coating and burning wish with chalice/necromentia.
    o -4 Eliminate, - 1 splendor -1 curse of misfortunes, +1 helm +2 hymn +1 necromentia +2 plague engineer.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 10-05-2020 at 11:18 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Great primer! Glad to see this deck becoming established and getting legs after all the work you put into it.

    Imagine how many opponents you get on tilt beating them with Pelakka Predation and Cruel Reality!

    Are you now 11-1 vs Bryant Cook after the latest deck changes?

  6. #6

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Great primer! Glad to see this deck becoming established and getting legs after all the work you put into it.

    Imagine how many opponents you get on tilt beating them with Pelakka Predation and Cruel Reality!

    Are you now 11-1 vs Bryant Cook after the latest deck changes?
    11-1 vs the deck in general. I think I'm 4-0 vs Bryant and 3-1 vs Vivarus, 3 other people.

  7. #7
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Did they finally fix Cruel Reality on MTGO?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  8. #8

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Did they finally fix Cruel Reality on MTGO?
    It was fixed on the aug 19th maintenance, which is why I am no longer running curse of fools wisdom.

  9. #9
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    It was fixed on the aug 19th maintenance, which is why I am no longer running curse of fools wisdom.
    Ah, ok. It might help some people if you had a "current" or "sample list" spot. Unless I missed it already there.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  10. #10

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Ah, ok. It might help some people if you had a "current" or "sample list" spot. Unless I missed it already there.
    I have a picture of the current list at the top of the card discussion post & the matchup discussion post

  11. #11
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I have a picture of the current list at the top of the card discussion post & the matchup discussion post
    Oh, ok, yeah, didn't load here for me because of a firewall, but I see the spot now.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  12. #12
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Yeah based on your picture here and in the other thread, I just assumed they finally fixed the bug and you can cheese people out with Cruel Reality again. Great news for the deck! This is no fools' game!

    It might be helpful to have a card-tagged sample list for people who can't view the pic or who just can't see the cards that well.

  13. #13
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    I noticed you mentioned it in the history, so I found the Mono Rat Stompy thread:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...19#post1080419

    It was built as a joke (before Curse Stompy), but I had surprisingly good test results with it just based on the power of the Black Stompy Shell of
    8 Sol Land
    10 black source
    4 Chrome Mox

    4 Chalice
    4 3sphere
    4 Karn
    4 Leyline
    2 Helm

    similar Karnboard package

    That was build before Eliminate, which is an easy 4-of.

    Pack Rat and Nezumi Shortfang let me cheese some wins off 1-card engines, protected by Caverns and Swarmyard, but overall the Curse package looks a lot stronger as a 1-card engine to win games and your Dark Ritual tech is big for accelerating lock pieces. I will say that Pack Rat is an excellent variance-smoother in Stompy, letting you run a high land count and redundant lock pieces and then just convert bad draws into Rats.

  14. #14

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I noticed you mentioned it in the history, so I found the Mono Rat Stompy thread:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...19#post1080419

    It was built as a joke (before Curse Stompy), but I had surprisingly good test results with it just based on the power of the Black Stompy Shell of
    8 Sol Land
    10 black source
    4 Chrome Mox

    4 Chalice
    4 3sphere
    4 Karn
    4 Leyline
    2 Helm

    similar Karnboard package

    That was build before Eliminate, which is an easy 4-of.

    Pack Rat and Nezumi Shortfang let me cheese some wins off 1-card engines, protected by Caverns and Swarmyard, but overall the Curse package looks a lot stronger as a 1-card engine to win games and your Dark Ritual tech is big for accelerating lock pieces.
    Yah I referenced your deck because you mentioned it in the developmental thread; I just didn't link it because I didn't know if there were details. I can add the above thread to the history post.

  15. #15

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    I had an excellent co-stream of my most recent 5-0 list. Check it out if you want to see how it plays. Match 5 vs death's shadow was intense.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/752600046?t=0h0m6s

  16. #16
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    You were streaming with Phil Gallagher right? I think I'll check it out.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  17. #17

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You were streaming with Phil Gallagher right? I think I'll check it out.
    Yes this was on Phil Gallagher (@ThrabenU)'s stream.

  18. #18

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    I have liked pelakka predation so much that I am testing 2 memory leak right now. It is a very similar card which is a bit better as a spell & a topdeck but a bit worse as a land t1.

    The first 2 times I have drawn it it won the game, so initial testing is promising.

    Specifically it took a goblin engineer that would have found t3 painter kill, and cycled to find my 3rd mana source for t3 helm kill vs burn.

    From a matchup perspective having more discard obviously has improved my control & A+B combo matchups quite a bit. Having such tempo negative cards over more removal seems like they would tank my aggro & mana denial matchups. However the land mode of both those cards is quite valuable in those matchups, having 22 lands + 2 redraws instead of previously only 20 lands is pretty great. Overall as smoothing cards that play nicely with 3ball & Chalice I have been quite impressed. Reducing the deck's fail rate seems more valuable than speed which surprised me; I suspect it is due in part to chrome mox allowing you to toss them when the tempo loss would be problematic.

    Additionally the information from the peek has been more valuable than I had predicted.

  19. #19

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Added some additional matchups & discussion on dark ritual.

  20. #20

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    2 new cards I want to test: Skyclave shade as a recursive threat to punish people sideing out creature removal, and [cards]Bloodchief's Thrist[cards] as an answer to delver that is also good vs vial & stompy decks.

    Thoughts anyone?

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