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Thread: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

  1. #141

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    I have gone 16-4 since the bannings in leagues. Deck feels quite good right now; blue control feels good and delver is no longer unwinnable now that plague engineer and chalice are real threats.

    More fair non-blue and less depths is also great for this deck. List and mus in tweet
    Deck feels solid. Only wondering if 3rd agent is better than a torpor orb (game 1s vs doomsday) and if I need a 19th untapped land (t1 b sources are at the bottom end)

  2. #142

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    List looks good overall but 4 Eliminates seems excessive (and dead against too many matchups) in the post-oko world.

    Maindecking Ensnaring Bridge, Agonizing Remorse, or one of the new removal spells seem like the better route to take.

  3. #143

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    List looks good overall but 4 Eliminates seems excessive (and dead against too many matchups) in the post-oko world.

    Maindecking Ensnaring Bridge, Agonizing Remorse, or one of the new removal spells seem like the better route to take.
    Yah that is where I am least certain. I was expecting a bunch of very fast ur delver and Thalia decks where it is great, but that didn’t materialize.

    Options:

    Soul shatter: answers to fast Marit Lage and fast karn which are problems for the deck. clunky

    Hagra’s mauling: an extra land drop is always useful, helps against uptick in wasteland. Really clunky.

    Remorse: really flexible. Proactive so better t1 play usually. Tempo negative, life loss.

    The abyss: very powerful, slow

    Rider: threat if dead, hard to cast.

    Bridge: the deck gets cards stuck in hand too easily imo.

    Perhaps the best option is swap in the remorses with 2 of the md eliminates?

  4. #144

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Still trying to figure out the last flex slots. One thing I have realized and why I don’t go below 2 helms is that the deck has a mild threat density problem. It’s constructed such that only 1 card needs to resolve to win, so you can run more interaction. That does mean however that ~ 10% of hands just have all hate and you don’t draw a finisher before t5. Having an eliminate rotting in your hand while the opponent draws out of 3 ball is a problem.

    My wish list for it would be:

    • 1 black pip
    • 2-3 cmc
    • Doesn’t die to removal
    • Proactive, can play t1 otp.
    • Flexible enough to be worth playing vs all fair decks at least.
    • Can win the game if given enough time.



    Agent was proactive but not great vs all fair decks and dying to removal was a big problem. The early damage often didn’t matter either.

    Eliminate is great in oko.fmt but not being proactive and not helping the decks threat density problems.

    Rider is wincon and flexible, but not really proactive, also BB pips.

    Maybe it’s time for Liliana the last hope? She meets everything except for double black pips. However since I last tried her oko has been banned (who just destroys her) and I started running pelakka predation (way more black sources if I need them). We are starting to see more x/1s like peezy and Thalia and snapcaster again. She is very good against decks that ignore chalice like plague engineer. Doesn’t turn on removal. T1 play worth Ritualing into. Actually wins the game within 5 turns if the opponent doesn’t do anything, increasing threat density vs control. Has slight synergy with splendor, deaths hold and plague engineer.

    Thoughts? If you like it, how many copies? Does she need some eliminates as support?

    Edit: I want 2 urborg for Liliana and 0 urborg for agent. The only matchups they overlap really is maverick so I think I should be ok with a clean swap for sideboard agents and vault of whispers.

    Doom fall is proactive removal but is pretty low power level. Collective brutality might be good again with pws and x/3s being less common. Synergy with bridge and fools wisdom.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 02-24-2021 at 10:12 AM.

  5. #145

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Hello Reeplcheep,

    Love the deck, I have been brewing on some Black Stompy for a while, then I saw your nice video with Phil G, it made me try the deck and I'm enjoying it very much!

    Liliana LH seems a good idea, maybe just 1 MD? BB could be a problem, but I've tried Liliana of the Veil in a Zombie Stompy with the same mana base and it was okay. Worth trying for sure!

    Other ideas..: 1 Toxic Deluge? Liliana's triumph?

  6. #146

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by tillcor View Post
    Hello Reeplcheep,

    Love the deck, I have been brewing on some Black Stompy for a while, then I saw your nice video with Phil G, it made me try the deck and I'm enjoying it very much!

    Liliana LH seems a good idea, maybe just 1 MD? BB could be a problem, but I've tried Liliana of the Veil in a Zombie Stompy with the same mana base and it was okay. Worth trying for sure!

    Other ideas..: 1 Toxic Deluge? Liliana's triumph?
    Really glad to hear I inspired you!

    I tried 2 brutality 2 lili in 2 leagues. Lili was ok but the flexibility of brutality (with oko and arcanist gone) was really good. I could see a 3/1 split making sense.

  7. #147

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Compared to something like eliminate, the combo and control matchups are way better, and the deck just runs smoother. After a few leagues , I ran hot through a bunch of well-known grinders for a 5-0.

    2-1 bant miracles
    2-0 Omni (first lili emblem kill)
    2-1 turbo depths (nightmare mu)
    2-0 esper tezzerrator yorion ... thing
    2-0 grixis phoenix (g1 t0 leyline concede :D)

  8. #148
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Looks like a strong choice. Brutality's modes do everything you need it to now that Oko is banned.

  9. #149

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Okay, so 2/2 then and no Eliminate? let's go!

    I understand the flexibility of c. brutality, but I also noted that big creatures are back, like Tarmogoyf (at least in my community). I guess we'll reconsider it in a while when combo will be less present and the meta stabilized. And combo decks are a bit less played in paper, so...

    Love Liliana though, reminds me of a good old huge Pox T1...

  10. #150

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    I was running 3 collective brutality 1 Liliana last hope that league which I think is better. I really dislike bb cards in the main deck but 1 lily (In addition to fools wisdom as a 4th curse) drastically lowers the amount of games where you lose to never drawing a win con.

    Generally any creature that doesn’t care about brutality is weak to the plague engineers post board. It’s really only KOTR in maverick, deaths shadow in its namesake deck, or LOTV in pox where you’d rather have eliminate. Any delver threat taking their daze/fow is way more important than killing the threat. Additionally goyf is usually only to beat the mirror; most delver players prefer delve threats like mandrills/Gurmag in an open meta (which dodge eliminate). Hullbreacher/narset you can just take the days undoing or fow which are just as important. Elvish reclaimer is probably not a 3/4 on t1 or t2.

    In the first omni game lily emblem provided a wincon where I never drew one which was great, but it was really the brutality stripping the show & tell that won me the game.

    Warning long theory blurb


    This actually leads into some of theory and innovation behind my deck that may not be obvious at first glance. When you put ancient tomb and chalice in your deck you inherently are trading flexibility and consistency for tempo. The first way people actually made stompy decks good is balls to the wall aggro deck like eldrazi. All your card do the same thing (smash face) and consistency doesn’t matter because they are hopefully dead by t4.

    My deck takes the opposite approach of trading back some tempo for consistency. Traditionally decks do that with cantrips like brainstorm or tutors like GSZ but that’s not an option in stompy decks. Pelakka predation is not an mana-efficient card in your good hands but it’s your best card if your are pinched or flooded on mana. It’s always worth a card against almost any matchup, since it can answer a wasteland, a force, OR a doomsday. Collective brutality is similar in that it is less efficient than remorse or eliminate, but it gets stronger the worse your hand is (because of escalate) and can always trade with something (delver, Thalia, or show & tell).

    The core idea is your lock pieces or fast threat hands are going to win no matter what in your good hands; your flex interactions job is to rescue your shitty hands. Which pelakka predation and collective brutality do very well. Flex interaction intentionally being low ceiling high floor cards is a large departure from other chalice deck and part of what makes my deck good.

    The other reason why I like the targeted discard is that a+b combo is more popular than engine combo right now. In the league above you have depths/Phoenix/omni, and doomsday/narset day is popular too. Not too much elves/ant/TES/enchantress/Hogaak. Targeted Discard is so much better than additional hate pieces vs those decks (except depths, which is why it’s tough) because they only have a few cards that matter. Imagine drawing blood moon vs omni or spyglass vs omni. And then your lock pieces makes it hard for them to find another piece before they die.


    This has been jank deckbuilding 201 with Dr. Reeplcheep. Tune in next time for “Sideboard mapping for dummies”.

  11. #151

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Thank you for your thorough analysis, I totaly agree with you on all those points... I really like Pelakka too, and I understand that it is the obvious exemple of how flexible a card can be to serve our purpose. Can't wait to try Collective Brutality. Oh, and I just saw on twitter that you were running 4 Plague Engineers in SB, I get it now...


    Do you remember how the Dark Depths match went?

  12. #152

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by tillcor View Post
    Thank you for your thorough analysis, I totaly agree with you on all those points... I really like Pelakka too, and I understand that it is the obvious exemple of how flexible a card can be to serve our purpose. Can't wait to try Collective Brutality. Oh, and I just saw on twitter that you were running 4 Plague Engineers in SB, I get it now...


    Do you remember how the Dark Depths match went?
    Game 1.

    Got discarded into t2 combo otd.

    Game 2.

    They had t3 natural combo without casting any spells. This is usually strong because it dodges 3ball/agent/chalice, but i had karn for bridge and they had no answer.

    G3.

    They kept a force of vigor + decay based hand for my lockpieces but got bodied by opposition agent x2.

  13. #153

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Played in the challenge; depths was suddenly 10% of the meta and I faced them twice oof. Ended up 3-4. Perhaps with brutality main I need more flexible removal like soul shatter sideboard.

    The flexibility of brutality has been great. I liked the extra win cons in lili tlh but she is very hard to cast and isn’t always great. Additionally the deck has felt a bit mana light: I have to use the predations as lands too much (would rather be spells most of the time and only lands in emergencies).

    Thoughts on Crawling Barrens? Black decks have often used workshop to increase threat density. Untapped land when land screwed, powerful mana sink when flooded. I can pretty easily afford the charge up cost. 4/4s are quite a bit harder to kill than 3/3s in legacy. Now that oko is gone a 4/4 murders most planeswalkers. It also makes agent more of a gotcha since I have a credible reason to hold up mana until end of turn.

  14. #154
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    What's your current list?

    When did you cut Soul Shatter in the SB? I thought you were running at least 2 for a while, not just for Turbo Tibalt but also Depths.

    Liliana's Triumph is also an option but the 2B cost should be easy enough for you.

    What were your other wins and losses in the Challenge? Did the deck have any new strengths or weaknesses with the change to Brutality?

  15. #155

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    I cut soul shatter for 1 Tormod crypt and 1 Torpor orb after the ban. Brutality/lili was replacing my prior flex slots of either eliminate (great vs tempo, useless otherwise) or remorse (great vs control and combo, bad otherwise).

    5-0 list here

    I had two reasons: I though doomsday would go up and depths would go down with the resurgence of fair non-blue. Brutality is flexible but low power compared to my old options so I thought I would have less cuts. Less cuts means less cards to bring in g2 means I should just run more karn targets. I think the second point is correct that I want less targets, but perhaps I cut the 4th engineer and the third agent for 2 soul shatters.

    In general I think it just makes land based matchups worse. I lost to leovold beats vs nic fit and primeval Titan out of 12post where eliminate or remorse could have been helpful. However compared to eliminate it massively improves the combo and control matchups and compared to remorse it massively improves the tempo matchups.

    Several combo control matchups I would just go chalice, discard 2x, curse where before with eliminate you would go chalice, curse they force, than you sit around with useless eliminates until they draw out of the chalice and you lose. Remorse solves that problem but then you just concede to t1 delver or t2 Teeg.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 03-01-2021 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Fixed link, grammar

  16. #156
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Yeah, I see where Brutality's flexibility helps fill the deck's gaps in those scenarios.

    Then the answer is just in the SB. I think you can't afford to lose those Soul Shatters as long as Depths is a top contender. Brutality's flexibility is great, but it means the deck has no removal in the 75 for cards like Marit Lage, Leovold or Prime Time. That's your 4 losses right there. Soul Shatter would answer all 4. You wouldn't necessarily have won all those games, but at least your deck would have some answer vs no answers. Soul Shatter should also help against randoms walkers like Jace that will reappear post-Oko.

    Edit: Maybe you don't need so many Karn slots. I would guess that you're already winning the games where you untap with Karn or Curse. You already have answers to dangerous board states through them. Your SB should be helping you in the games where you don't have those engines.

  17. #157

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    The downside with brutalities flexibility is that the sideboard improvement is less. Vs depths I would want 4 plague engineer, 2 shatter, 3 agents, spyglass, and helm. but what am I cutting to make room? Sure lili and 3 ball and urborg are bad. But you still have 5 more things to bring in. Karn gets bridge. Helm kill actually can race them. Chalice is great. Brutality takes crop, discard, and counter hate like fov or decay.

    I think I agree I need 2 shatters. The question is should they replace the worst karn targets or trim the black cards.

    The thought behind the additional karn targets is the most common situation I lose after untapping with karn is vs gy decks in the blind (when I didn’t keep a leyline hand), an uro that is about to escape, vs d&t (apparition hitting karn and bridge is oof) or vs a resolved doomsday. Hence torpor orb and Tormod’s crypt.

  18. #158

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    So brutality continues to be great in testing as additional 2 cmc flexible plays. It also makes ensuring bridge considerably better in the deck.

    Liliana is really nice as a threat you can play t1 off of dark ritual. Having additional threat density has made me consider dropping the md helms. Helm is often an awkward card in the early game but you need more than 8 wincons to be sure of finding something to end the game.

    However, they haven’t worked super well together. Brutality excels vs control and small creatures, Liliana excels vs control and small creatures, and plague engineer also answers small creatures. Having no answers to a TKS or even KOTR game 1 has been an issue and makes my already bad depths/maverick matchup worse.


    Thoughts on 0 brutality 0 helm 3 liliana’s triumph 3 last hope?

    Triumph and lily cover each other’s weaknesses (go wide vs go tall) and gives maindeck outs to lage. Bonus 2 for 1 synergy. You will have worse spell combo and control matchups than brutality but those matchups are already pretty good. The cards are great vs all my worst mus (depths/delver/maverick). And my curve goes down/black count for mox goes up, at the cost of being more black intensive (min 2 urborg). Sideboard will need to be rejigged slightly (more agents/less shatters)

  19. #159
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    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    LtLH is good at managing small creatures but seems much better in a deck with value creatures to return, like Grixis Control running Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix. The emblem is still a wincon, but without creatures main LotLH is doing much less than its supposed to do, just killing X/1s and growing slowly.

    Is Liliana of the Veil any good here? Is the problem that untargetted discard is bad in prison, and you need the Edict effect at instant speed for Marit Lage and SneakShow?

    Liliana, Death's Majesty or Liliana, Dreadhorde General? These are normally not in consideration for Legacy because of CMC but you're Stompy. Both immediately act as a wincon, making 2/2s while threatening to Wrath the opponent's board. Maybe there are curve issues. It could replace Helm for the spot of MD wincon without being dead outside the combo.

    The best answer for TKS, Marit Lage or KOTR is Soul Shatter. Is it worth running any copies main?

  20. #160

    Re: Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    LtLH is good at managing small creatures but seems much better in a deck with value creatures to return, like Grixis Control running Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix. The emblem is still a wincon, but without creatures main LotLH is doing much less than its supposed to do, just killing X/1s and growing slowly.

    Is Liliana of the Veil any good here? Is the problem that untargetted discard is bad in prison, and you need the Edict effect at instant speed for Marit Lage and SneakShow?

    Liliana, Death's Majesty or Liliana, Dreadhorde General? These are normally not in consideration for Legacy because of CMC but you're Stompy. Both immediately act as a wincon, making 2/2s while threatening to Wrath the opponent's board. Maybe there are curve issues. It could replace Helm for the spot of MD wincon without being dead outside the combo.

    The best answer for TKS, Marit Lage or KOTR is Soul Shatter. Is it worth running any copies main?
    All good points. The minus is pretty bad mainboard but returning a agent or plague engineer could be devastating in the right matchup. Perhaps I should focus the sideboard on creatures so I can keep her in for more matchups.

    The reason I didn’t consider Liliana was because untargeted discard is really bad in prison and you need so many lands to function. The deck is hyper focused on card quality over card quantity, between chalice/3ball/no creatures/threats that dodge decay. If you go t1 mox chalice, t2 urborg Lotv you only have 2 cards in hand and they have 7. Trading a curse for plow there seems absolutely aweful. She also doesn’t actually kill the opponent.

    I do like Deaths majesty but being castable off of t1 dark ritual and can win the game are the primary considerations. I loved agent for that reason but turning on removal was really bad, and attacking with a x/2 7 times was more difficult to accomplish than protecting her for 5. The list of cards that can do that without turning on removal is quite short: phyrexian arena/treacherous blessing/bitterblossom are all going to kill you.

    Having more t1 things off of dark ritual also helps with the chalice/drit problem. City/chalice/deaths majesty/dark ritual is considerably more awkward to sequence than city/chalice/dark ritual/Last hope. There is no 1 cmc removal for lily other than needle so just play her first and then chalice around daze. Agent was awkward for the opposite reason, you had to choose between ritualling it out or protecting it from plow.

    Once you get to 4 mana and beyond it’s a lot harder to justify over helm. It may not seem like it, but 5 mana is a lot easier in this deck than 6 mana so I don’t think I would play the general. Between sol lands and my acceleration you usually end up at an odd number of mana (tomb plus swamp plus drit, city plus 2 lands plus mox.)

    With oko gone I feel like my mainboard removal should care more about delver/Thalia/daze than JTMS/karn/mentor. Those cards at least can be handled by pelakka some of the time.

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