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Thread: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

  1. #61
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    That makes a lot of sense. The way I figure it, 1 basic swamp won't make the difference between winning/losing against Wasteland decks I don't think. I think it's better to just have the highest saturation of useful interactions with the lands, first and foremost being perfect mana to cast our spells and secondary to add mid-game boosts (Coliseum.) I think in Delver matchups we will want to prioritize lands with free OUAT if we can and be smart with our fetching patterns. We really only need 1 land to function, so one Wasteland isn't necessarily the end of the game.

    Side thought: don't forget that Abrupt Decay doesn't deal with Leylines, so if you are in a non-Chalice matchup it may not be correct to board in Decay over having Thoughtseize.

    Your note about Library is valid; again, we aren't trying to play the grind game anymore (like you tried with Bitterblossom.) We just can't compete with Oko/blue stew decks on the value side so we have to focus our sideboard on dealing with hate pieces and still being the beatdown. I'll cut the Library I can get the 4th Force of Vigor in there. I'm not sure, but it may be wise to sideboard a basic land (Island or Swamp.) I think with the addition of Deep Analysis the need for Library has gone down. I have a soft spot for Sylvan Library because in almost every deck I've played I used it with incredible results. It's easily one of the most powerful green cards ever printed. It's especially awesome in Turbo Depths, but that deck plays a lot more lands/mana sources to play a grindier game.

    Against decks like DnT and Maverick the Vigor/Decay plan is very strong as well. I have found the only way to really lose to DnT is if I give them enough time to get Batterskull online; once that happens it's really hard to climb back into the game. Against Maverick we need to prioritize playing around Scavenging Ooze, which isn't a fast answer but will be *murder* if we let them untap with it. Maverick is pretty good at playing around Daze so Abrupt Decay and maybe Dismember will be crucial. Both decks have access to Containment Priest post-board, so playing Decay is correct. I actually like Dismember a lot because it only costs 1 mana, but Snuff Out isn't a bad move either.

    As we craft this closer to a resolved list I think we need to evaluate how Daze fits into the sideboard plan. It's really one of the only flexible slots in the deck, even though it performs above expectations. Trimming across the board (like your plan listed above) is fine, but we need to be aware of percentage points lost to a lower saturation of synergy. Thankfully just one GGT + Street Wraith is nuts at filling the graveyard once we deal with Leyline/Cage/RiP. Its unrealistic to count on Daze dealing with grave hate, its just so efficient, so Daze seems like a natural place to cut. I'm not saying this as a hard-and-fast rule, sometimes Daze will be good regardless, but it's something to keep in mind (especially against Aether Vial decks...)
    Brainstorm Realist

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  2. #62

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Just a quick update as i managed to get afew games going :

    2-1 Dredge
    Noteworthy remarks: Won g3 via a T1 hollow one, then daze on opponent's careful study. Opponent did not draw into discard outlet afterwards and was on 1land with hollow one beatdown. Still had a 2nd daze in hand.

    0-2 Pox
    Noteworthy remarks: Pox was rough, constant hand disruption + land D pretty much killed the deck.
    OTD G1, mulled to 6 with 1land, was thoughtseized took away our careful study. Had imp in hand but did not have enough cards to discard to put hollow one into play, need 1more mana. Opponent sinkhole next turn and liliana thereafter. GG
    G2 Wasn't quite sure if opponent was on leylines so i chose not to bring in full set of vigor, only 2pcs + 2decay for bridges/abyss/nether void type cards. Mulled to 6 again, had a swamp/fetch/imp/gravetroll/hogaak/vigor, decided to keep it as i did not want to mull5 against pox. Was a mistake as it was a slow hand and could not do anything on T1/T2 while opponent did not have leylines. Played swamp into imp, trying to draw into any 1drop creature next turn so i can bring hogaak into play. However opponent again sinkhole my swamp. Drew empty and opponent had smallpox, which simply sealed up the game.

    0-2 ANT
    Noteworthy remarks: Feels like a bad MU as opponent actually only needs like storm 6 to kill us.
    OTD G1, i remember getting thoughtseized into duress as i needed T2 to be able to go wide with an extra mana to play carefulstudy > hollow onex2 + venge. Hand disruption once again killed us.
    G2, managed to have a T1 hollow one + threshold imp hitting for 6 trying to race until opponent 2lands>petal>ritual>cabal rit into tutor into past in flames for the GG.

    2-0 Hogaak (hedron crab/altar version)
    Noteworthy remarks: We are definately faster then their version, they usually play a crab turn 1 and try to get bridge into the GY turn 2 and their setup turn 3.
    By turn 3, i was almost always hitting in for 9 a turn.
    G1, we had discarded OUAT into 2ximp dropping gravetroll and had hogaak untapped by t3 while opponent only had 1bridge, 1 crawlers + 2xtokens in play via therapy.
    In G2, opponent had leyline opening which we basically ignored and went T2 imp > double hollow one and swing away.

  3. #63
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Great feedback! I don't think we can really fight Pox in any meaningful way, regardless of the tweaks we could make, especially now that we have cut Bloodghast. Life from the Loam could be good in the matchup, but maintaining 2 lands to cast it 1-2 times in a game will be tough. We should probably shelve that discussion for now, it's not a very common matchup.

    ANT/Storm on the other hand will show up a lot more often than Pox. Veil of Summer and Force of Will come to mind, with Veil of Summer being the better of the two options. We could also board in some sort of artifact hoser like Null Rod or Thorn of Amethyst. Discard into Surgical into Veil of Summer seems pretty good as a plan. I've waffled back and forth with Force of Will, we really don't have enough blue (even with Prized Amalgam it was close.) I think Veil is our best bet for fighting that matchup alongside Thoughtseize, Therapy, Surgical, and Daze. It may not be favored, but if we can have 1-2 disruptions alongside a fast clock we should be in decent shape. EDIT: Collector Ouphe may be a decent option as well. I don't necessarily like to advocate for 2 mana hate pieces, but it should be alright considering velocity and Lotus Petal.

    It's good to know that we can compete as a faster version of Dredge/Hogaak, that is one of the main appeals to this deck over those.

    EDIT: Proposed new sideboard for Hogaak/Hooting version to include Veil of Summer. Force of Vigor should be ok at 3 copies considering we have 4x Careful Study/Street Wraith + 2x Deep Analysis to draw into it.

    2x Cabal Therapy
    2x Surgical Extraction
    3x Force of Vigor
    2x Brazen Borrower
    2x Abrupt Decay
    1x Sickening Dreams
    1x Karakas
    2x Veil of Summer


    I am still keeping the Bloodghast/Amalgam plan in my back pocket, but for now the Hooting/Hogaak/GGT plan seems really solid. If I go back to the former the Force of Vigor sideboard should be re-evaluated into different tech, possibly Nature's Claim.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 10-13-2020 at 09:25 AM.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  4. #64

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Yea, i guess it really depends on your local meta. Veil really strong against these nasty storm comboes, but T1 thoughtseize from other decks is still extremely potent against us.

    Anyway i have been following the vintage scene abit and recently they have put up good results mtgo challenge 3rd placing) with a hollowvine deck without the use of a single power9, the deck unfortunately hinges on the power of Bazaar.
    Looking through the list, it plays really similar to us, even to the point of having a big "DS" threat to follow up after the initial hollow / vine plays.
    The list as followed:

    1 Chalice of the Void <==swap to land
    1 Mental Misstep <==+1OUAT
    2 Force of Vigor <==+2careful study
    2 Misdirection <==+2careful study
    3 Once Upon a Time
    4 Mindbreak Trap <==+4faithless looting
    4 Force of Will
    4 Force of Negation <==some daze?
    4 Serum Powder

    2 Memnite
    2 Sphinx of Foresight
    2 Stonecoil Serpent
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Vengevine
    4 Squee, Goblin Nabob <==Not sure, difficult to get value without Bazaar, still possible but hard, maybe Gtroll
    4 Hollow One

    1 Strip Mine <==got to redo the whole manabase
    2 Riftstone Portal
    2 Gaea's Cradle
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Karakas
    1 Force of Vigor
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Petrified Field
    2 Maze of Ith

    Discussion
    -I am really amazed at the absent of power9 cards. With 90% of the cards legal in legacy, we might be able to use some of it's strategy.
    -With Bazaar, the deck doesn't even need colored mana and plays WASTELAND with is amazing. This is the most difficult part to bring over to legacy, as we only have careful study & faithless looting for this purpose, maybe 4x cephilid coliseum with the help of gravetroll?
    -It focuses alot on the opening hand, with 4x serum powder / 2xsphinx / 3xOUAT which i agree, because from my humble experience with what games i played, we often win and lose on the first 2turns. Opening with OUAT was a big advantage and usually allow a smooth transition into T1 hollow/hollow/vine and almost always a GG.
    -It plays Gaea's cradle for the stonecoil beatdown which is really cool. (not sure if we can play this, but it's really powerful with the protection from multicolor, meaning no blocks from coatls/strix/hogaak/drown loch etc...even has trample to boot.
    -It plays 8+2 protection MAINDECK !!! 8x fow effects + 2x misdirect.

    I know how much you have been trying to have blue protection spells in the deck so maybe this is something we can look at....I understand it's not exactly SHIV like without the deathshadow. It might be more of a mixture of the Original GB Vengevine + SHIV's. The deck has plenty of maindeck slots for tweaking, so i feel there's a potential here.

  5. #65

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksummer View Post
    Yea, i guess it really depends on your local meta. Veil really strong against these nasty storm comboes, but T1 thoughtseize from other decks is still extremely potent against us.

    Anyway i have been following the vintage scene abit and recently they have put up good results mtgo challenge 3rd placing) with a hollowvine deck without the use of a single power9, the deck unfortunately hinges on the power of Bazaar.
    Looking through the list, it plays really similar to us, even to the point of having a big "DS" threat to follow up after the initial hollow / vine plays.
    The list as followed:

    1 Chalice of the Void <==swap to land
    1 Mental Misstep <==+1OUAT
    2 Force of Vigor <==+2careful study
    2 Misdirection <==+2careful study
    3 Once Upon a Time
    4 Mindbreak Trap <==+4faithless looting
    4 Force of Will
    4 Force of Negation <==some daze?
    4 Serum Powder

    2 Memnite
    2 Sphinx of Foresight
    2 Stonecoil Serpent
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Vengevine
    4 Squee, Goblin Nabob <==Not sure, difficult to get value without Bazaar, still possible but hard, maybe Gtroll
    4 Hollow One

    1 Strip Mine <==got to redo the whole manabase
    2 Riftstone Portal
    2 Gaea's Cradle
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Karakas
    1 Force of Vigor
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Petrified Field
    2 Maze of Ith

    Discussion
    -I am really amazed at the absent of power9 cards. With 90% of the cards legal in legacy, we might be able to use some of it's strategy.
    -With Bazaar, the deck doesn't even need colored mana and plays WASTELAND with is amazing. This is the most difficult part to bring over to legacy, as we only have careful study & faithless looting for this purpose, maybe 4x cephilid coliseum with the help of gravetroll?
    -It focuses alot on the opening hand, with 4x serum powder / 2xsphinx / 3xOUAT which i agree, because from my humble experience with what games i played, we often win and lose on the first 2turns. Opening with OUAT was a big advantage and usually allow a smooth transition into T1 hollow/hollow/vine and almost always a GG.
    -It plays Gaea's cradle for the stonecoil beatdown which is really cool. (not sure if we can play this, but it's really powerful with the protection from multicolor, meaning no blocks from coatls/strix/hogaak/drown loch etc...even has trample to boot.
    -It plays 8+2 protection MAINDECK !!! 8x fow effects + 2x misdirect.

    I know how much you have been trying to have blue protection spells in the deck so maybe this is something we can look at....I understand it's not exactly SHIV like without the deathshadow. It might be more of a mixture of the Original GB Vengevine + SHIV's. The deck has plenty of maindeck slots for tweaking, so i feel there's a potential here.
    Update: Played a couple of games with the altered legacy version...its way slower on putting power onto the board, however it can be super grindy with the Squees and multiple Cephelid coliseums, drawing so many cards, even out CA against miracles running terminus, most of the time it hits in using either a hollow one + lizard, until you draw have 2creatures and bring vines back for the GG. It can get there with so many cards in hand, which in one of the games against sharkstill i drew until i only had 9cards in library left when opponent had like 30+cards, and opponent was chatting on decking me with standstill. xD
    The cradles are really nice though, provides alot of much needed mana. Also i was constantly holding on the 2+2 fow/negations, pretty much countered everything.
    So i guess it's sacrifice of power from Hogaak/DS for alot more card advantage + alot more counterspells.

    Conclusion: It is a totally different deck compared to SHIV. I did not like it when i first tried it, but after a couple of games, just being able to have 2fow +2blues in your hands almost every turn feels so good. It may not have the speed but it sure can grind. (see Hanni's bottom signature xD)
    Last edited by Blacksummer; 10-14-2020 at 08:25 AM.

  6. #66
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    It's a cool concept for sure, but Vintage is just too different than legacy. They absolutely *must* have the counterspells to compete. In legacy we need a way to get on-board fast and race, like a true aggro deck. I actually really like the direction of Mandrils/Hogaak/GGT, it enables more 4+ powered threats. Deep Analysis is also a pretty good development for the deck, one that could actually get us over the hump of the mid-game grind.
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  7. #67

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It's a cool concept for sure, but Vintage is just too different than legacy. They absolutely *must* have the counterspells to compete. In legacy we need a way to get on-board fast and race, like a true aggro deck. I actually really like the direction of Mandrils/Hogaak/GGT, it enables more 4+ powered threats. Deep Analysis is also a pretty good development for the deck, one that could actually get us over the hump of the mid-game grind.
    With the Mandrils/Hogaak/GGT combination, the most important thing is not to get molested in the first 2turns and have 2lands up on T2. Once opponent allow us that, we can go HAM. Being able to have the 1mana for discard engine
    (careful study/imps) + 1mana for "casting hollow one" or the 2nd 1drop is so crucial in the game plan.

    Actually i want to try without death's shadow for Mandrils/Hogaak/GGT combination, because most of the games if you tried it, you dont get to play/grow DS, usually it's played as a 2nd creature drop and goes to graveyard or it stays a 1/1 and basically there to facilitate vengevine return or hogaak convoke.

  8. #68
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I'm all for any sort of innovation you want to try, I just think if you go the route of cutting Death's Shadow and moving towards more graveyard synergy you'll eventually end up with a standard Hogaak list. I've seen a lot of Hogaak gameplay, mostly from the modern format, but it's all basically the same in Legacy: Altar of Dementia, Bridge from Below, and Stitcher's Supplier are so much more powerful at enabling Hogaak synergies, along with a combo finish. Hogaak is already a fairly resilient version of Dredge that can play fair grindy games. My goal with Shadow/Hollow One/Vengevine was to make a viable aggro deck, something where I could develop a big board state quickly that could create inevitability in the first few turns. Shadow was added to be the biggest 1-mana threat possible for the Legacy format once I had Street Wraith and Faithless Looting (now Careful Study.)

    I think I need to include a 2nd Reanimate in my list to enable Shadow, because as you say it usually isn't a live threat early enough when enabling Vengevine. For me, Shadow serves a core function of being aggressive enough to compete. I want overlapping synergies so that whatever enablers I draw (Imp, Study, Wraith, Deep Analysis) I am always moving towards getting Hollow One, big Shadows, or Vengevine. I am looking for a faster deck to get on-board than a traditional Shadow or Hogaak deck.
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  9. #69

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I'm all for any sort of innovation you want to try, I just think if you go the route of cutting Death's Shadow and moving towards more graveyard synergy you'll eventually end up with a standard Hogaak list. I've seen a lot of Hogaak gameplay, mostly from the modern format, but it's all basically the same in Legacy: Altar of Dementia, Bridge from Below, and Stitcher's Supplier are so much more powerful at enabling Hogaak synergies, along with a combo finish. Hogaak is already a fairly resilient version of Dredge that can play fair grindy games. My goal with Shadow/Hollow One/Vengevine was to make a viable aggro deck, something where I could develop a big board state quickly that could create inevitability in the first few turns. Shadow was added to be the biggest 1-mana threat possible for the Legacy format once I had Street Wraith and Faithless Looting (now Careful Study.)

    I think I need to include a 2nd Reanimate in my list to enable Shadow, because as you say it usually isn't a live threat early enough when enabling Vengevine. For me, Shadow serves a core function of being aggressive enough to compete. I want overlapping synergies so that whatever enablers I draw (Imp, Study, Wraith, Deep Analysis) I am always moving towards getting Hollow One, big Shadows, or Vengevine. I am looking for a faster deck to get on-board than a traditional Shadow or Hogaak deck.
    Tomorrow i will just try out :
    -4x death shadow
    -1x reanimate
    -3x thoughtseize
    -Shocklands

    +3x Oath of Ghouls
    +1x hooting mandrils
    +4x Cabal Therapist (placeholder)
    +Duals
    +Up to 2x Cephilid coliseum


    Reason:
    1)Although shadow has the highest potential of power onboard for a "1drop", the deck is currently too fast in a way that the life drop is often still off of having DS stick on board. There were so many times that i cast it purely to get vengevine back and then it goes into the yard.
    2)Reanimate is still really powerful and i like it but i'm cutting it temporarily. There were afew cases where it did nothing because either of mana constraint, using that 1extra mana to play a hollow one or get a 1drop creature to return vengevine. So im cutting it for now.

    3)It's just an idea and although we all hate these 2drops, i want to try having some sort of engine going,
    Oath + wraith draws cards
    Oath allows us to discard Mandrils/hollow ones early and still have them back later to play.
    Oath to grab back an imp
    Might open up some sort of recurring ETB creature plays with things like Cabal Therapist

  10. #70
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    You may want to check this out if you're going to try Oath of Ghouls:

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=oath+ghouls
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    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  11. #71

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You may want to check this out if you're going to try Oath of Ghouls:

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=oath+ghouls
    Ah...there's already a thread running oath of ghouls.
    Initially i wanted to use call of the netherworld to gain some CA + recycle creatures countered or discarded but call requires the creature to be black, so it doesn't fit well.

  12. #72
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksummer View Post
    Ah...there's already a thread running oath of ghouls.
    Initially i wanted to use call of the netherworld to gain some CA + recycle creatures countered or discarded but call requires the creature to be black, so it doesn't fit well.
    Street Wraith and Faerie Macabre are the best black reusable creatures, but others would be Fleshbag Marauder and Shriekmaw. Call to the Netherworld will never be anything but card parity, so the effect has to be worth a card. Returning a key combo piece would be the only way to really make it shine. I did grab a set of Call to the Netherworld recently, just to have it on hand. I did the same with Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapist, and Deep Analysis; it's nice to have those particular cards available if there ever becomes a good way to incorporate them.

    I find myself at a crossroads with Lotus Petal again; I understand it's role in the deck, I just wonder if it would be better to just jam more lands. More lands means I would be able to enable Bloodghast better, be less vulnerable to Wasteland, and gives me another slot to play around with. I could do +2 lands (total of 15) and +1 something else (Daze, Hogaak, Lotleth Troll, Deep Analysis, Reanimate.) I think I'm going to stick with Bloodghast/Amalgam for now, just because I don't think GGT will be useful with Hollow One long-term. I'm still intrigued by Hooting Mandrils, but I'm not sure if it's correct without a way to turbo-charge the graveyard.
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  13. #73

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Street Wraith and Faerie Macabre are the best black reusable creatures, but others would be Fleshbag Marauder and Shriekmaw. Call to the Netherworld will never be anything but card parity, so the effect has to be worth a card. Returning a key combo piece would be the only way to really make it shine. I did grab a set of Call to the Netherworld recently, just to have it on hand. I did the same with Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapist, and Deep Analysis; it's nice to have those particular cards available if there ever becomes a good way to incorporate them.

    I find myself at a crossroads with Lotus Petal again; I understand it's role in the deck, I just wonder if it would be better to just jam more lands. More lands means I would be able to enable Bloodghast better, be less vulnerable to Wasteland, and gives me another slot to play around with. I could do +2 lands (total of 15) and +1 something else (Daze, Hogaak, Lotleth Troll, Deep Analysis, Reanimate.) I think I'm going to stick with Bloodghast/Amalgam for now, just because I don't think GGT will be useful with Hollow One long-term. I'm still intrigued by Hooting Mandrils, but I'm not sure if it's correct without a way to turbo-charge the graveyard.
    Replacing 3xpetals with lands shouldn't affect the deck too much overall, probably giving up the occasional T1 all in for some wasteland resilience. Maybe like :
    +1 verdent catacombs
    +1 island (i mean i really like having 2basic islands for borrowers but 2 might be too many and could screw up if we actually need other color sources.
    +1 reanimate (i think a 2nd inclusion might be good since it triggers the prized amalgrams).
    So in total we get 1swamp + 1island which stabilises T1/T2 plays.


    I think for now i will leave it at the GGT/Hogaak/Mandrils list. I think it's good enough until maybe something comes along in the new commander legends/future xpac set etc... However i will be doing more testing to see how i can either replace or optimise the 4x slot for DS. I tried 3x copies of hooting mandrils and really liking it. It just puts on so much pressure on the opponent and almost always cast as a 1drop even in the early game, might even go up to full playset.

  14. #74
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    The inclusion of more lands instead of Lotus Petal makes more sense if you're running Bloodghast, especially since your list has transformed away from turn 1 speed and is more focused on getting big threats into play on turns 2-3 instead.

    The Tireless Tribe list has Undiscovered Paradise, to sort of cheat on running a low amount of lands while still being able to enable Bloodghast that your list does not have.
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  15. #75
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    The inclusion of more lands instead of Lotus Petal makes more sense if you're running Bloodghast, especially since your list has transformed away from turn 1 speed and is more focused on getting big threats into play on turns 2-3 instead.

    The Tireless Tribe list has Undiscovered Paradise, to sort of cheat on running a low amount of lands while still being able to enable Bloodghast that your list does not have.
    I agree completely. The other important aspect is I could really use a few more fetchlands to feed Death's Shadow. Traditional Shadow lists play 9 fetches, where I'm down to 7-8.

    List I'll be testing this weekend:

    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    4x Prized Amalgam
    4x Bloodghast
    4x Street Wraith
    1x Lotleth Troll

    4x Careful Study
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Daze
    4x Once Upon a Time
    2x Reanimate

    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Misty Rainforest
    2x Verdant Catacombs
    3x Watery Grave
    1x Breeding Pool
    1x Bayou
    1x Cephalid Coliseum

    Sideboard
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Brazen Borrower
    2x Abrupt Decay
    1x Naure's Claim
    1x Engineered Explosives
    1x Karakas
    2x Sickening Dreams
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    2x Cabal Therapy
    1x Sylvan Library



    Surgical = Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, Snapcaster Mage, Uro, combo decks (paired with Thoughtseize/Therapy)
    Borrower = Leyline of the Void, Chalice of the Void, Rest in Peace, Marit Lage
    Decay = Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Chalice of the Void, Delver of Secrets, Dreadhorde Arcanist
    Nature's Claim = Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void
    Engineered Explosives = Chalice of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage, Elves, Death and Taxes
    Karakas = Marit Lage, Uro, Reanimator, Sneak/Show, Thalia
    Sickening Dreams = Elves, Goblins, Death and Taxes
    Mindbreak Trap = Storm, Reanimator, Doomsday (is this good against Elves?)
    Cabal Therapy = Storm, Sneak/Show, 4c Pile, Miracles, combo decks
    Sylvan Library = 4C Pile, Miracles, Aggro Loam, grindy matchups, Delver decks

    There is a lot of overlap with the sideboard cards, which is a good sign that I'm on the right track. When a card can be good against several different strategies, even if it isn't perfect in any, still means I can grind out games.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  16. #76
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Well yeah, the nature of having recurring threats makes the deck great at grinding out opponent's in grindy matchups when you can adequately fight through the graveyard hate. The bigger problem is that most of the grindy matchups also have Swords to Plowshares, so you also have to address that as well, but you have more than enough threat density to do so.
    Sligh
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    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  17. #77
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Short testing session against Burn and Turbo Depths. Lotleth Troll is too slow without Lotus Petal, 15 lands is 1 too many, and I have had zero problems getting Shadow online by turn 2. I wouldn't have been able to play Hogaak or Hooting Mandrils either, so those aren't replacements. I need 1 more discard outlet and 1 more utility card, so that is where I will start. Collective Brutality fits both needs, it just doesn't work as well alongside Shadow.

    Edit:
    -1 land
    -1 troll
    -1 OUAT
    -1 Bloodghast

    +4 Brainstorm

    That puts it back down to 14 lands but gets the best card in legacy into the deck. It also gets me to 12 maindeck blue cards so I can sideboard force of will if the need arises. Testing will commence. The deck is filled with a lot of air at this point (4x Careful Study/Brainstorm/OUAT/Street Wraith) but that should only make the deck even more consistent.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 10-20-2020 at 01:35 PM.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  18. #78

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Short testing session against Burn and Turbo Depths. Lotleth Troll is too slow without Lotus Petal, 15 lands is 1 too many, and I have had zero problems getting Shadow online by turn 2. I wouldn't have been able to play Hogaak or Hooting Mandrils either, so those aren't replacements. I need 1 more discard outlet and 1 more utility card, so that is where I will start. Collective Brutality fits both needs, it just doesn't work as well alongside Shadow.

    Edit:
    -1 land
    -1 troll
    -1 OUAT
    -1 Bloodghast

    +4 Brainstorm

    That puts it back down to 14 lands but gets the best card in legacy into the deck. It also gets me to 12 maindeck blue cards so I can sideboard force of will if the need arises. Testing will commence. The deck is filled with a lot of air at this point (4x Careful Study/Brainstorm/OUAT/Street Wraith) but that should only make the deck even more consistent.
    Preordain might be better with the deck? I know people are going to flame me with the "brainstorm best legacy card etc..." but with so little fetches and no reliable way to shuffle, preordain or ponder might be better.
    Reason i pick preordain over ponder because it allows us to pick out the exact cards we need and not to draw any unwanted cards.

    Btw, i have been ironically "brainstorming" over these few days, maybe there is a merit to running multicolored lands like what @Hanni suggested.
    Maybe the fetch/shocklands is restricting the deck. What if we switch it to Tarnished citadel/mana confluence/city of brass which allows us to play up to multiple copies of cephilid coliseum, further open up the deck to more creature/card options to speed up the deck, put more power onto the board earlier. More redundancies, better SB options.
    -Faithless looting/flamewake phoenix/Ox etc...
    -SB pyro/ ancient grudge/shenanigans etc...

    Of cos we will have to give up the 1 thing that we love (daze).

  19. #79
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I was doing some small testing last night, just goldfishing against some other brews, and I think we need some sort of answer to problems on-board in the main deck. I didn't go for the Brainstorm idea just yet, although I think it has merit. I ended up at the end of the night with -1 land (14, cutting the Coliseum), -1 Lotleth Troll, +2 Brazen Borrower (maindeck.) Fourteen lands is just fine, with 15 I was actually flooding out quite a bit. The combination of Careful Study/Street Wraith/Once Upon a Time is very good for us, so in a sense we don't *need* brainstorm. However, I was looking for ways to improve what OUAT could grab. Brazen Borrower seems very good because it answers anything (if only temporarily), can be grabbed with OUAT, and increases threat density. Coliseum was online for exactly one game, and it didn't do enough to warrant the downside of only making blue. With a dredge-based deck including GGT it seems much better. I don't want GGT currently, I'm more interested in a Hollow One/Death's Shadow deck than a dredge deck. Vengevine, Bloodghast, and Prized Amalgam are part of the engine but are essentially free-rolls with proper sequencing.

    I tried 1x Abrupt Decay, 1x Daze (up to 4), which was ok, but not stellar. Anything with Wasteland really ruins the plan because it's really easy to cut off green. I did really like having the 4th Daze, but with Borrower in there now I don't know how to cut a card to get it in. I might go down to 13 lands, but that's a little suspect. Having 8 cards that are 'free' re-draws for lands in the opening hand (Wraith/OUAT) makes it doable, but having 2 lands is actually ideal. I think 14 is correct. The only thing I really need to figure out currently is how to take advantage of the fodder in the graveyard; I fill my yard pretty fast with useless junk so I think I could utilize a delve creature/spell. I'm not sure what that spell would be, but I have room to include a 1-of. Hogaak, Gurmag Anglar, and Become Immense are at the top of my list so far. Become Immense seems spicy, making even Bloodghast threatening. It could provide just enough reach to make the deck 1/2 a turn faster. Hogaak does that as well, but has it's own challenged. Need to test it.

    Regarding the rainbow lands: if you decide to go that route, I strongly suggest the 5c version that Hanni has established. Once you have access to all 5 colors you can really make the deck redundant and consistent. I'm sure he has a list posted in the GB Vengevine thread, you just need to go back a page or two because he went deep into Hogaak territory in most recent lists. I did a lot of testing with Hanni's list, and it's definitely powerful and consistent. The issue I had was that it could sometimes only have 1 viable threat like a Vengevine or Hollow One and then a bunch of anemic ones, like Rootwalla, Tribe, and Bloodghast. So if they deal with the big threat opponents buy a lot of time to grind out the game, which most fair decks could do just fine. I wanted Shadow as a just another beefy threat that could threaten lethal damage by turn 3.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  20. #80

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I was doing some small testing last night, just goldfishing against some other brews, and I think we need some sort of answer to problems on-board in the main deck. I didn't go for the Brainstorm idea just yet, although I think it has merit. I ended up at the end of the night with -1 land (14, cutting the Coliseum), -1 Lotleth Troll, +2 Brazen Borrower (maindeck.) Fourteen lands is just fine, with 15 I was actually flooding out quite a bit. The combination of Careful Study/Street Wraith/Once Upon a Time is very good for us, so in a sense we don't *need* brainstorm. However, I was looking for ways to improve what OUAT could grab. Brazen Borrower seems very good because it answers anything (if only temporarily), can be grabbed with OUAT, and increases threat density. Coliseum was online for exactly one game, and it didn't do enough to warrant the downside of only making blue. With a dredge-based deck including GGT it seems much better. I don't want GGT currently, I'm more interested in a Hollow One/Death's Shadow deck than a dredge deck. Vengevine, Bloodghast, and Prized Amalgam are part of the engine but are essentially free-rolls with proper sequencing.
    Hmm what kind of on-board problems did you encounter? If it's blockers/creatures, i like snuff out, it really helps ramp out DS. Otherwise against borrower would do fine as well, but sometimes we go like imp into casting OUAT and having access to double blue becomes a problem. Coliseum cut is fine given that GGT is out, i had good experience with it when GGT is in the yard, as it just screams gas, especially when we have some useless cards in hand and we need to dig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I tried 1x Abrupt Decay, 1x Daze (up to 4), which was ok, but not stellar. Anything with Wasteland really ruins the plan because it's really easy to cut off green. I did really like having the 4th Daze, but with Borrower in there now I don't know how to cut a card to get it in. I might go down to 13 lands, but that's a little suspect. Having 8 cards that are 'free' re-draws for lands in the opening hand (Wraith/OUAT) makes it doable, but having 2 lands is actually ideal. I think 14 is correct. The only thing I really need to figure out currently is how to take advantage of the fodder in the graveyard; I fill my yard pretty fast with useless junk so I think I could utilize a delve creature/spell. I'm not sure what that spell would be, but I have room to include a 1-of. Hogaak, Gurmag Anglar, and Become Immense are at the top of my list so far. Become Immense seems spicy, making even Bloodghast threatening. It could provide just enough reach to make the deck 1/2 a turn faster. Hogaak does that as well, but has it's own challenged. Need to test it.
    Its true, wasteland is a nightmare for us and so is getting our 1st spell countered. Getting wastelanded on early and not being able to cantrip to find more lands just feels depressing when you need either colors that could enable so much plays. Having our 1st careful study or imp countered is basically GG, so more protection be it pro/reactive is really important. Daze was really strong so going up to 4copies should be fine. Regarding making use of the GY, that's when i felt the need to have some sort creatures/spells that we could flashback/escape/recurr from the grave, or simply delve on it own and not requiring any external activation. Problem with BI is that it is a dead card until the moment you want to go all in, because getting a creature plowed is just game ending. If we are to go with BI burst dmg plan, i suggest maybe we look in to a couple thoughtseize/therapy effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Regarding the rainbow lands: if you decide to go that route, I strongly suggest the 5c version that Hanni has established. Once you have access to all 5 colors you can really make the deck redundant and consistent. I'm sure he has a list posted in the GB Vengevine thread, you just need to go back a page or two because he went deep into Hogaak territory in most recent lists. I did a lot of testing with Hanni's list, and it's definitely powerful and consistent. The issue I had was that it could sometimes only have 1 viable threat like a Vengevine or Hollow One and then a bunch of anemic ones, like Rootwalla, Tribe, and Bloodghast. So if they deal with the big threat opponents buy a lot of time to grind out the game, which most fair decks could do just fine. I wanted Shadow as a just another beefy threat that could threaten lethal damage by turn 3.
    LOL...i dont like like working with anemic creatures like Rootwalla, Tribe, and Bloodghast as well, but i like the ability to refill and have recurring threats like how hogaak deck uses feeder/crawler combo and also how actual dredge does it with neco+bridge/Ox/ichorids. That actually what i am trying to aim for because most of the time, we put 3-4 "fatties" onto the board by T2 and basically pray that enough of them stick to get the opponent to zero. We need that continuous stream of board presence, and with DS, it's hard to lose life beyond the like 12life, that's why i kind of wanted snuff-out to grow it big early and remove blockers or just something to crawl out of the grave on it's own xD

    I think the day this list is complete is when we can tell ourselves that we would play it over something like the current Oops all spells deck.
    -Kills extremely fast
    -Consistent enough
    -Plays disruption/protection
    -Able to play G2/G3

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