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Thread: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

  1. #41
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    We don't have enough green to support Force Of Vigor, so I think Nature's Claim is out next best option.

    Further 'free' interaction would be Force of Will, which should still be a consideration. Spell Pierce is also an option, one I've been trying. Solid so far.

    @Hanni: I've tried both versions, and Death's Shadow/Street Wraith/Thoughtsieze are better than Tribe/Rootwalla/Therapy, period. My personal experience has shown that a turn 2-3 Shadow is much better than even 2 turn1-2 Rootwallas.

    I definitely need to get more testing in, but so far I am much more positive about the shadow version. Daze offers so much, it's so good in this deck. This deck has alternative t1 plays that are just as good as a t1 blitz, starts that create better inevitability.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  2. #42

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Personally, i have not tried the rainbow list yet so i can't really make comment on the deck's power level or choice of cards.
    However, the caverns are pretty questionable in such a list, where you have coloured spells alongside various creature types. I understand the importance of uncountability but i think with such a deck style, these are reasonable risk to take.

    List itself seems to be able to go fast/wide enough early with so many copies of redundancy, but as for closing up the game i'm not sure it it has enough power to do that. Rootwalla/tribe/feeder/gravecrawler all seems pretty small and without a draw engine like dredge or altar, it would seem difficult to to put multiple copies of bridge into the yard.

    Would definitely appreciate if you have any playtest reports or run through on some of the meta matchups.

  3. #43

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Saw someone posting a Hogaak/death shadow list (by: CharkAttack) in reddit :


    Creatures [36]
    3 Carrion Feeder
    3 Death's Shadow
    3 Golgari Grave-Troll
    3 Street Wraith
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Gravecrawler
    4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    4 Satyr Wayfinder
    4 Stitcher's Supplier
    4 Vengevine

    Sorceries [6]
    1 Dread Return
    1 Reanimate
    4 Faithless Looting

    Lands [18]
    2 Swamp
    3 Blood Crypt
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Overgrown Tomb
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Marsh Flats

    Sideboard
    1 Death's Shadow
    1 Anger
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Force of Vigor
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Shenanigans

    I mean it kind of plays similar to what SHIV wants to do. Instead of usual Hogaak/altar version, it plays wide and hits hard fast.
    Stitch's supplier/looting/Golgari troll/wayfinder is a powerful draw engine. It also plays the same amount of "life loss" cards for DS.
    With the engine above it can go 18lands and still have enough gas for the road
    Between OUATs & Styr wayfinder sacrifices opening consistency for more gas going into the game, from both getting cards into GY, hitting an extra land and being a green body itself for convoke.
    Having enough green cards to play vigor is also quite the nuts.

    However i assume it to be "1turn slower", since SHIV tends to put out at least 8+ power on board on T1 through card selection from OUAT and mana acceleration from petals.
    We should definitely give it a try...whilst we be reinventing the wheel here.

  4. #44
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I'm skeptical without Thoughtseize or OUAT; those cards add a ton of consistency. I can get behind Supplier/Grave troll, but Satyr Wayfinder is really pushing it at 2 mana. I'm not dismissing this outright, i just think the core of Shadow/Thoughtseize/Daze is very powerful. His list relies on fetch/shocks and only 3 street wraiths/1 reanimate for Shadow synergies. Also, no Hollow Ones makes it more susceptible to grave hate. Again, I'm not dismissing it, I would have to try it out.

    If we want to redraw this with GGT and Stitcher's Supplier I think it's possible. What do we cut?
    Brainstorm Realist

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  5. #45

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I'm skeptical without Thoughtseize or OUAT; those cards add a ton of consistency. I can get behind Supplier/Grave troll, but Satyr Wayfinder is really pushing it at 2 mana. I'm not dismissing this outright, i just think the core of Shadow/Thoughtseize/Daze is very powerful. His list relies on fetch/shocks and only 3 street wraiths/1 reanimate for Shadow synergies. Also, no Hollow Ones makes it more susceptible to grave hate. Again, I'm not dismissing it, I would have to try it out.

    If we want to redraw this with GGT and Stitcher's Supplier I think it's possible. What do we cut?
    Viability wise he did managed to cling a 5-0 league so it must have done pretty well.
    I think we are incline to give the deck a go. Maybe like 5-6games to get a feel of how it compares to SHIV.
    Nothing beats actual playtesting and after that we can decide if we really want to dive down the gravetroll/stitch supplier inclusions.

    I agree on the thoughtseize/daze being crucial disruption pcs seeing how deciding the game is on the first couple of turns.
    On one hand we have speed + disruption...on the other sustainability + resilience...not sure which is better for the current meta lol.


    Edit: So i managed to get 2 games going today with the "Hogaak shadow".
    Last edited by Blacksummer; 10-05-2020 at 07:14 AM.

  6. #46
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksummer View Post
    On one hand we have speed + disruption...on the other sustainability + resilience in game one...not sure which is better for the current meta lol.
    I added that line, because g2-3 will play out much differently. With 6 disruption spells in the maindeck and more out of the board it will be much more reliable at finding critical removal for hate. Once Upon a Time can get Brazen Borrower, and the full set of Street Wraith/Careful Study still feed Hollow One's. Hollow One dodges grave hate, Bolt, Abrupt Decay, and Fatal Push all at once. I look at that Hogaak list and with some minor changes you have full-on Manaless Dredge, which is a more consistent deck. It doesn't mess with Bloodghast and lands, it just goes full tilt into Phantasmagorian.

    I think what people are doing is trying to play around with different versions of Hogaak so they can adapt to the metagame. I'd rather take what this 5-0 deck teaches us and apply it to our deck rather than just switch over (although I do like your point of piloting it for a handful of games to see how it plays.)

    As far as getting a 5-0 in a league, a ton of quirky decks have done that. I'm not discounting the person's achievement, I just think it's an indicator of people trying anything/everything they want to in leagues because of a lower emphasis on performance. Legacy revolves around fun/trying new things lately, which is awesome! It's why I'm trying out this deck.

    I'm not trying to be a stick-in-the-mud, I just don't think it's anywhere near what we are doing. It cuts Once Upon a Time and Hollow One, both being the way we create explosive starts and resilience. Hell, Hollow One even helps us as a cycler in post-board games to find sideboard cards.

    I do think there is some potential for Golgari Grave Troll though...I don't think we need a lot of copies, maybe 2, and it could create mid-game blasts that help feed Hogaak. It's so hard to fit it all in though, the only way I see is -3 Lotus Petal, +1 land, +2 Grave Troll. I'll try it out.

    EDIT: I know you mentioned that the mid-range plan of Bitterblossom doesn't pan out very well games 2-3. I think we might want to think about sideboarding Pyroblast and squeezing in a Blood Crypt. Pyroblast answers a ton of problems for us, not the least of which is Oko. I've also been debating putting in more redundancy of looting effects, maybe at least 2-3 Faithless Looting. I have found most of the best games, outside of t1 blasts, are fed by Careful Study. More copies of that makes sense. Not sure where to cut, but I'll figure it out and get back to you.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  7. #47

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Update: So i managed to get 2 games going today with the "Hogaak shadow".

    1-2 Against Red Painter
    Game 1 was won pretty quicky via T1 looting discarded Gtroll & bloodghast. Dredge 6 and managed to find a hogaak+vengevine cast off bloodghast and another zombie guy creatures on board. Opponent conceded afterwards.
    Game 2 was quick for us, brought in 4x vigor + shenenigens. i kept a 1lander with looting/street wraith/Gtroll, after cycling through could not find a 2nd land to cast styr or double cast 1drop zombies in hand. Opponent brought in bloodmoon into karn creator and locked up the game. It was possible to keep it up the 1draw step per turn till we find vigor, but it was pretty much over tbh.
    Game 3 We had used sheniegans on grindstone + Zombie + 3xbloodghast by turn 3 and vigor + Gtroll in hand to ditch. Opponent had welder in play and went combo off, he welder to get painter back into play with the grindstone trigger on the stack, we vigor to destory grindstone and welder fizzles. We drew dredged and hit a hogaak next turn but it's GG as opponent can just bring grindstone back into play via welder next turn and combo off. We were 1turn slow and had no creature removal.


    2-1 Against a Leyline-helm dominator wishclaw deck (i have no idea)
    Game 1 was won by opponent where he had leyline maindeck, where we kept a looting/Gtroll/vengevine/hogaak/land/land/zombie hand. I played a zombie and conceded. lol
    Game 2 We had a hand with vigor + shenanigan + 3lands and some creatures. Opponent did not have leyline, opens off with maze of ith into mox diamond + mox opal. I smelled blood and used vigor ditch styr to take out both mox, and put a zombie into play. T2 Stitch supplier hit onto hogaak + bloodghast and we went boardwide while opponent did not have lands. Opponent conceded afterwards as we had 3/3zombie + 2/2blood + hogaak too much for him with just an maze of ith in play.
    Game 3 was a long dragged out game where we opened slow but had vigor in hand. Opponent opened with 2leylines and played into trinisphere + chalice for 1. However opponent had no threat, so we just continue to draw and put more lands in play. Eventually we had mana to use vigor on trinisphere + chalice. We had double looting in hand which found us a 2nd vigor. Opponent was in top deck mode and had 2 wishclaw in play. We broke the lock, managed to cast a stayr dropping vengevine into GY and we casted 2x death shadow so it was 17power on board. Opponent wishclaw for ensnaring bridge, he pass wishclaw to us where we pulled a shenenigens next turn and hit in for the win (opponent was ancient tombing alot so life was low)


    Thoughts at this point:
    The deck feels more of a Hogaak deck than anything else, where the whole focus is trying to filled up the grave and win by Hogaak, be it game 1/2/3. The ability to play force of vigor is pretty crucial, as it is so strong against any permanent hate pcs.
    It does not feel as explosive when compared to what SHIV has to offer. T1s are usually just stitch or loot and T2/T3 are usually the point where you get to go wide.
    Also it does not have reactive pieces so it's basically a race even against slower semi-combo decks
    For postboard, it depends so very much on having vigor/shenenigens, but is able to recover very quickly when the lock is broken.

  8. #48

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I added that line, because g2-3 will play out much differently. With 6 disruption spells in the maindeck and more out of the board it will be much more reliable at finding critical removal for hate. Once Upon a Time can get Brazen Borrower, and the full set of Street Wraith/Careful Study still feed Hollow One's. Hollow One dodges grave hate, Bolt, Abrupt Decay, and Fatal Push all at once. I look at that Hogaak list and with some minor changes you have full-on Manaless Dredge, which is a more consistent deck. It doesn't mess with Bloodghast and lands, it just goes full tilt into Phantasmagorian.

    I think what people are doing is trying to play around with different versions of Hogaak so they can adapt to the metagame. I'd rather take what this 5-0 deck teaches us and apply it to our deck rather than just switch over (although I do like your point of piloting it for a handful of games to see how it plays.)

    As far as getting a 5-0 in a league, a ton of quirky decks have done that. I'm not discounting the person's achievement, I just think it's an indicator of people trying anything/everything they want to in leagues because of a lower emphasis on performance. Legacy revolves around fun/trying new things lately, which is awesome! It's why I'm trying out this deck.

    I'm not trying to be a stick-in-the-mud, I just don't think it's anywhere near what we are doing. It cuts Once Upon a Time and Hollow One, both being the way we create explosive starts and resilience. Hell, Hollow One even helps us as a cycler in post-board games to find sideboard cards.

    I do think there is some potential for Golgari Grave Troll though...I don't think we need a lot of copies, maybe 2, and it could create mid-game blasts that help feed Hogaak. It's so hard to fit it all in though, the only way I see is -3 Lotus Petal, +1 land, +2 Grave Troll. I'll try it out.

    EDIT: I know you mentioned that the mid-range plan of Bitterblossom doesn't pan out very well games 2-3. I think we might want to think about sideboarding Pyroblast and squeezing in a Blood Crypt. Pyroblast answers a ton of problems for us, not the least of which is Oko. I've also been debating putting in more redundancy of looting effects, maybe at least 2-3 Faithless Looting. I have found most of the best games, outside of t1 blasts, are fed by Careful Study. More copies of that makes sense. Not sure where to cut, but I'll figure it out and get back to you.
    You are right that SHIV does have a gameplay quite different to Hogaak decks.
    Correct me if i am wrong but i do think SHIV has the potential to be less devastated by perm GY hate by playing DS/hollow one/borrowers.
    I am not sure about cutting petals though as they really provide a big boost in speed.
    I do really like how SHIV plays out Game1, it feels pretty unbeatable so far.

    I did not play out the force of will/negation SB plan so i don't really know how good it is or if the deck really needs interaction pcs.
    The real problem now is figuring out how we want to continue playing G2/G3 and what we really need, because even though i did some playtest by going slow grind, i did not manage to figure out what the deck needs since i already change the initial gameplay so much.

    If we add pyro/looting that would be 4colors? BUrg, not sure we can support it though but pyro is definitely powerful for the meta.

  9. #49
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I don't know where to cut either, lol. I just know that we need answers to Oko/grindy mid-range blue decks. I am seriously considering cutting the Lotleth Troll, it's just not fast enough. It's not that we don't have 2 mana by turn 1-2, it's just that I'd rather play 2 1-mana plays than one 2 mana play. I think Troll goes in favor of Hogaak. Which brings me to the next discussion point, one that your mention of the Shadow/Hogaak deck brings up:

    How good is Reanimate #2? His deck was playing Dread Return, mostly a concession to needing something to sacrifice Suppliers. We could also play Dread Return, but we don't have any really powerful threats beyond a single Hogaak to bring back, and he does that himself. We also want to go wide, so sacrificing 3 creatures is counterproductive. I do feel that Reanimate does a hell of a job feeding Shadow synergies and allows us to discard Hollow Ones if need be. I've noticed a lot of games get absurd fast with Reanimate in the mix.

    So right now I'm at -1 Lotleth Troll, +1 Hogaak. The only place to cut for Reanimate would be Lotus Petal, Careful Study, Once Upon a Time, a Bloodghast, or a Prized Amalgam. The only ones I would cut would be Ghast/Amalgam, the others are just too important. Bloodghast is difficult to trigger given a low land count and Reanimate actually feeds Prized Amalgam synergies. So I'll try cutting a Bloodghast.

    Thanks for helping with this deck! So far it's been a ton of fun to play/tweak.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  10. #50

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I don't know where to cut either, lol. I just know that we need answers to Oko/grindy mid-range blue decks. I am seriously considering cutting the Lotleth Troll, it's just not fast enough. It's not that we don't have 2 mana by turn 1-2, it's just that I'd rather play 2 1-mana plays than one 2 mana play. I think Troll goes in favor of Hogaak. Which brings me to the next discussion point, one that your mention of the Shadow/Hogaak deck brings up:

    How good is Reanimate #2? His deck was playing Dread Return, mostly a concession to needing something to sacrifice Suppliers. We could also play Dread Return, but we don't have any really powerful threats beyond a single Hogaak to bring back, and he does that himself. We also want to go wide, so sacrificing 3 creatures is counterproductive. I do feel that Reanimate does a hell of a job feeding Shadow synergies and allows us to discard Hollow Ones if need be. I've noticed a lot of games get absurd fast with Reanimate in the mix.

    So right now I'm at -1 Lotleth Troll, +1 Hogaak. The only place to cut for Reanimate would be Lotus Petal, Careful Study, Once Upon a Time, a Bloodghast, or a Prized Amalgam. The only ones I would cut would be Ghast/Amalgam, the others are just too important. Bloodghast is difficult to trigger given a low land count and Reanimate actually feeds Prized Amalgam synergies. So I'll try cutting a Bloodghast.

    Thanks for helping with this deck! So far it's been a ton of fun to play/tweak.
    Managed to playtest alot today, going back and forth different card choices like Hogaak/Gravetroll/bloodghast/rootwallas/prized amalgram/hooting mandrils/deep analysis and alot more...even trying out strongarm tactics & rooting rats xD
    Decklist:
    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    4x Street Wraith
    3x Golgari Grave-Troll
    2x Hogaak
    2x Hooting Mandrils

    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Daze
    4x Once Upon a Time
    4x Careful Study
    3x Lotus Petal
    1x Reanimate
    2x Deep Analysis (thinking of maindecking 2xsnuff out instead)

    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Verdant Catacombs
    3x Watery Grave
    1x Breeding Pool
    1x Overgrown Tomb
    1x Swamp


    Sideboard
    4x Force of Vigor
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Stubborn Denial
    2x Brazen Borrower
    2x Abrupt Decay
    1x Thoughtseize
    1x Dismember (can switch out for Nature's claim or pithing needle if maindeck snuff out)
    1x Karakas


    Findings:
    Mainboard
    1)Hogaak it just too good to not play it, there are not many decks that can handle a quick 8/8 trample and it is still amazing postboard (as a pitch for force of vigor)
    2)Lotus petals are still huge T1/T2 plays, enables careful study or imp into hollow ones + vengevine plays. Also provides some assurance from opponent's daze. Fuel for delve too.
    3)Basking rootwalla looks good on paper but it actually does nothing, we do not have any sac outlets to make use of it nor does it enable vengevine/prized amalgram. It is basically a 1/1 and waste of deck space, it would be so good if it had like threshold +2+2 lol.
    4)Bloodghast feels weak compared to the other creatures, we actually dont really have a use for it. Both bloodghast + prized amalgram is a package, so if we cut 1 we cut the other and it creates alot more room for exploration of better card choices. Bloodghast also makes some plays awkward as you want to fetch and drop imps/careful study but then u don't manage to draw a 2nd land to bring it back for a couple of turns. By the time it comes back, you still wait a turn before it can attack, and 2/1 just doesn't do enough on board.
    5)Hooting mandrils feels great with the amount of GY we can easily generate, it is a "1drop" that enables vengevine, and useful creature postboard (a beatstick if opponent is on surgicals, and a pitch to force of vigor)
    6)Golgari gravetroll is a great fuel card once we start swapping out the above. It plays really well with hogaak/deep analysis. Postboard i swap him out for force of vigor.
    7)Deep analysis is really nice, netting 2cards midgame helps so much and the life loss benefits early DS.
    8)I swapped out bayou for overgrown tomb as i want to get DS onto board asap usually for a double 1drop for vengevine or to convoke for hogaak.

    Sideboard
    1)I completely redo the sideboard choice to fight grave hate and it seems to play out really well.
    2)I added Force of vigor as it is such a powerful card against things like leyline/chalice/bridge/grafdigger cage etc.
    3)I still kept in adrupt decay as they are really good against slower decks, uncountable is just too good.
    4)I removed cabal therapies for 2x stubborn denial + 4th thoughtseize as we can't really make good use of therapies flashback now. Also it can be difficult to name correctly if opponent concedes quickly G1 (sometimes i don't even know what opponent is playing even on T3)
    5)I still kept 2borrowers as they are still good against depths/chalice/leylines
    5)Postboard, we have more creatures that do not depends on sitting and waiting in GY now. Most of our creatures can come into play without touching graveyard. Or if opponent on surgicals/relic, we just need a small opening to use our GY resources.

  11. #51
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I really like that setup, it seems pretty good to me! I can't say enough that I love Deep Analysis being in there, it seems sooooo good. It looks really awesome to have Force of Vigor sideboard, it was really the best option. I was thinking Gurmag was a better fit than Mandrils...but trample is so underrated right now, to the point that RUG Delver lists are using Mandrils instead of Tarmogoyf in some cases. I'm definitely sleaving this up and trying it out, for sure. I have all the cards (ironically all except Breeding Pool and Overgrown Tomb...) Sideboard is *tight*, I love it, getting Stubborn Denial in there is awesome. I don't think we need Nature's Claim if we have Force of Vigor/Abrupt Decay. I understand the 4th Thoughtseize, but I might still tinker around with Therapy (it's a pet card...)

    1) Do you still have a threatening board by turn 2? Without Bloodghast/Amalgam you will probably only have 1 4-powered threat instead of going wide with several (even if the extras are small.)
    2) I might try 1 Deep Analysis/4 GGT's. I think it's pretty important to get the dredge train rolling.
    3) I. CAN'T. WAIT. TO. TRY. THIS. OUT.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  12. #52
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    We don't have enough green to support Force Of Vigor, so I think Nature's Claim is out next best option.

    Further 'free' interaction would be Force of Will, which should still be a consideration. Spell Pierce is also an option, one I've been trying. Solid so far.

    @Hanni: I've tried both versions, and Death's Shadow/Street Wraith/Thoughtsieze are better than Tribe/Rootwalla/Therapy, period. My personal experience has shown that a turn 2-3 Shadow is much better than even 2 turn1-2 Rootwallas.

    I definitely need to get more testing in, but so far I am much more positive about the shadow version. Daze offers so much, it's so good in this deck. This deck has alternative t1 plays that are just as good as a t1 blitz, starts that create better inevitability.
    Well yeah, Rootwalla beatdown itself isn't strong at all, it's the turn 1 Hollow One's and Vengevine's that are. Rootwalla simply facilitates the turn 1 Vengevine's and Hollow One's more consistently.

    Rootwalla itself isn't horrible if pumped to a 3/3 on turn 2, but I agree that it doesn't apply the sort of pressure that Shadow does. Rootwalla beatdown isn't the gameplan, though. It does, however, contribute points of damage along with everything else.

    Tireless Tribe is the more important piece, as having 8 1cc discard outlets is what allows the deck to more consistently have broken starts, and it's the fast starts that people have problems dealing with.
    Last edited by Hanni; 10-06-2020 at 12:09 PM.
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  13. #53
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksummer View Post
    Personally, i have not tried the rainbow list yet so i can't really make comment on the deck's power level or choice of cards.
    However, the caverns are pretty questionable in such a list, where you have coloured spells alongside various creature types. I understand the importance of uncountability but i think with such a deck style, these are reasonable risk to take.

    List itself seems to be able to go fast/wide enough early with so many copies of redundancy, but as for closing up the game i'm not sure it it has enough power to do that. Rootwalla/tribe/feeder/gravecrawler all seems pretty small and without a draw engine like dredge or altar, it would seem difficult to to put multiple copies of bridge into the yard.

    Would definitely appreciate if you have any playtest reports or run through on some of the meta matchups.
    The Caverns are not feasible in the Shadow list, but they work out perfectly fine in the rainbow list. The only non-creature spells I'm attempting to cast maindeck are Therapy and Once Upon a Time. Therapy can be cast from the flashback for no mana if necessary (by discarding it), and Once Upon a Time also has a colorless in the cost that a Caverns can tap for. There are only two main creature types (Zombie and Human), and resolving the initial discard outlet creature is the most important thing the deck needs to actually cast.

    As far as the power to close games out, the only thing the deck doesn't have vs the Shadow list is Shadow itself. Feeder can potentially grow as large, and Bridge can contribute multiple extra 2/2's over the course of the game. The deck doesn't really need a draw engine; it dumps its hand onto the table, which is usually enough, and draws into additional gas over the course of the game with threats that can keep coming back in matchups where it needs to grind. The deck doesn't need to try and get multiple Bridge's into the yard either; the point is that it is another source of free creatures that plays amazingly well with Cabal Therapy. Usually, I'll discard Bridge in response to a creature dying for a free 2/2.

    I didn't mean to distract the conversation to that list though, as the GB Vengevine thread is the place for it. I was more-so just commenting on the speed/consistency that Tireless Tribe offers, and the sideboard choices that are designed to fight against the hate postboard.
    Last edited by Hanni; 10-06-2020 at 12:20 PM.
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    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  14. #54

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I really like that setup, it seems pretty good to me! I can't say enough that I love Deep Analysis being in there, it seems sooooo good. It looks really awesome to have Force of Vigor sideboard, it was really the best option. I was thinking Gurmag was a better fit than Mandrils...but trample is so underrated right now, to the point that RUG Delver lists are using Mandrils instead of Tarmogoyf in some cases. I'm definitely sleaving this up and trying it out, for sure. I have all the cards (ironically all except Breeding Pool and Overgrown Tomb...) Sideboard is *tight*, I love it, getting Stubborn Denial in there is awesome. I don't think we need Nature's Claim if we have Force of Vigor/Abrupt Decay. I understand the 4th Thoughtseize, but I might still tinker around with Therapy (it's a pet card...)

    1) Do you still have a threatening board by turn 2? Without Bloodghast/Amalgam you will probably only have 1 4-powered threat instead of going wide with several (even if the extras are small.)
    2) I might try 1 Deep Analysis/4 GGT's. I think it's pretty important to get the dredge train rolling.
    3) I. CAN'T. WAIT. TO. TRY. THIS. OUT.
    Yea i chose mandrils because of trample (too many coatls flying around nowadays) and also delve5 which can matter because of how we want to have it available asap for vengevine trigger. Between 4/4 and 5/5 both evades bolt and bigger than elks, so it doesn't actually matter too much.

    1)The deck still stays true to putting in ~8+power on T1/T2, nothing has change from the core of the deck, bloodghast/amalgram are independent of how hollow one/vengevine comes into play. However now the deck can follow up with either hogaak or mandrils aside from DS pretty quickly afterwards. So it's definitely an improvement.
    2)I think 3 is good enough, because we can get to a point where we don't even want to dredge from either natural draw or looting effects, Hogaak don't actually take alot to come into play.
    The accelerated life loss from either deep analysis or snuffout is so good in getting DS into play early.
    3)Please do !!! Would be great if you could remember some of your games and post it here. Well for one, i can remember a really memorable game where i went T1 thoughtseize, sees plow/coatl/uro etc..., takes coatl. T2 cycled wraith, puts imp discards land/vengevine and cast 2x hollow one, venge attacks and gets plowed. Next turn, i dazed the uro and was hellbent, opponent left with like 2cards in hand i remembered. Attacked for 9 next turn, pass back and opponent conceded.

    Oh and i really need to add this. This is one of those aggro decks that play really well on the draw, if anyone has played delver decks, OTD always felt bad playing from behind. With this deck, OTD actually felt good with the extra card.
    Maybe it's just me but it's something i felt with playing the deck.

  15. #55

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    The Caverns are not feasible in the Shadow list, but they work out perfectly fine in the rainbow list. The only non-creature spells I'm attempting to cast maindeck are Therapy and Once Upon a Time. Therapy can be cast from the flashback for no mana if necessary (by discarding it), and Once Upon a Time also has a colorless in the cost that a Caverns can tap for. There are only two main creature types (Zombie and Human), and resolving the initial discard outlet creature is the most important thing the deck needs to actually cast.

    As far as the power to close games out, the only thing the deck doesn't have vs the Shadow list is Shadow itself. Feeder can potentially grow as large, and Bridge can contribute multiple extra 2/2's over the course of the game. The deck doesn't really need a draw engine; it dumps its hand onto the table, which is usually enough, and draws into additional gas over the course of the game with threats that can keep coming back in matchups where it needs to grind. The deck doesn't need to try and get multiple Bridge's into the yard either; the point is that it is another source of free creatures that plays amazingly well with Cabal Therapy. Usually, I'll discard Bridge in response to a creature dying for a free 2/2.

    I didn't mean to distract the conversation to that list though, as the GB Vengevine thread is the place for it. I was more-so just commenting on the speed/consistency that Tireless Tribe offers, and the sideboard choices that are designed to fight against the hate postboard.
    The rainbow list and SHIV kind of plays differently in how it produces it's threats. No doubt feeder can grow really big with crawler + bridge "combo", it's also kind of a infinite blocker. It just differs too much from the core of SHIV and it might need it's own little thread discussion at this point. One of the reasons that got me sucked into SHIV was how it could play Hollow one/DS together with a graveyard strategy, it was really refreshing how things can come together so perfectly.

    Oh btw, regarding the discard outlet (aka imps/tireless tribes/careful study) SHIV actually does draw it pretty consistently, 4xOUAT + 4xcareful study + 4xImps, pretty much always have one or the other. OUAT is such a powerful card especially if we open with it, digging so deep simply lets us choose the card that we need and better plan out our game (discard outlet or payoff etc...).

  16. #56
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksummer View Post
    Yea i chose mandrils because of trample (too many coatls flying around nowadays) and also delve5 which can matter because of how we want to have it available asap for vengevine trigger. Between 4/4 and 5/5 both evades bolt and bigger than elks, so it doesn't actually matter too much.

    1)The deck still stays true to putting in ~8+power on T1/T2, nothing has change from the core of the deck, bloodghast/amalgram are independent of how hollow one/vengevine comes into play. However now the deck can follow up with either hogaak or mandrils aside from DS pretty quickly afterwards. So it's definitely an improvement.
    2)I think 3 is good enough, because we can get to a point where we don't even want to dredge from either natural draw or looting effects, Hogaak don't actually take alot to come into play.
    The accelerated life loss from either deep analysis or snuffout is so good in getting DS into play early.
    3)Please do !!! Would be great if you could remember some of your games and post it here. Well for one, i can remember a really memorable game where i went T1 thoughtseize, sees plow/coatl/uro etc..., takes coatl. T2 cycled wraith, puts imp discards land/vengevine and cast 2x hollow one, venge attacks and gets plowed. Next turn, i dazed the uro and was hellbent, opponent left with like 2cards in hand i remembered. Attacked for 9 next turn, pass back and opponent conceded.

    Oh and i really need to add this. This is one of those aggro decks that play really well on the draw, if anyone has played delver decks, OTD always felt bad playing from behind. With this deck, OTD actually felt good with the extra card.
    Maybe it's just me but it's something i felt with playing the deck.
    I have noticed the extra card can really matter as well, and we are actually really well positioned to take advantage of Daze on the draw (something Delver can't really do.) We can just go for broke because some of our threats have haste (Vengevine) and all of them are bigger than a delver except for Putrid Imp. We are still attacking for 4 t1 in many games, whether it's draw or play. Delver can attack at the earliest t2 with a flipped Delver, that's their most aggressive start. We are at heart still an aggro deck, just with some tempo elements like Thoughtseize/Daze. As I've said before, this isn't a slower graveyard deck it's a faster Shadow deck. Our threats are resilient to any non-Swords removal, they are bigger on average than most threats, and we still get to go wide with several threats on occasion.

    I understand the concept of having only 3 GGT's, it's a situation where the first one is amazing and the 2nd one is terrible. I don't foresee it getting to a large enough p/t that we would want to Reanimate it, either. I'll try and scrape up another Deep Analysis, I think I only have 1 copy, but if I don't have a 2nd I'll just add whatever I have on hand.

    The big appeal for me for Shadow vs Carrion Feeder is the simple fact that it takes no extra effort or special timing to make Shadow good...we just fetch shocks, play thoughtseize, cycle street wraiths, and occasionally Reanimate something. Carrion feeder needs food to be good, so it's ideal early and needs to land before anything else. Early turn Feeder can be amazing but past turn 4-5 it's terrible as a topdeck. Shadow on turn 4-5 is a pretty good way to apply pressure or clamor back onto the board with a serious threat, even if our other threats have been Terminus-ed or wiped out some other way.

    I've been meaning to get some sort of matchup analysis going, but the deck is in the fast stage of development. It has changed drastically from even a week ago. We'll get there, I'm sure.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  17. #57
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Also, I posted your list in the opening post. I gave a brief description about it, but I imagine the deck will evolve closer to your list than the original. It looks very, very promising. I'm splitting hairs, but I kind of want to get a Sylvan Library in there and cut to 3 Force of Vigor.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  18. #58

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Also, I posted your list in the opening post. I gave a brief description about it, but I imagine the deck will evolve closer to your list than the original. It looks very, very promising. I'm splitting hairs, but I kind of want to get a Sylvan Library in there and cut to 3 Force of Vigor.
    Really appreciate that... it's so generous of you to have the list featured on the front page.
    I mean after all you came up with the idea and it's your thread, i pretty much just meddle around with it a little.

    Anyway i will try to play more this coming weekend, hope i can get to play more against some of the Tier 1 meta decks like Snowko/Rug/Omnitell and even loam/dnt decks.

  19. #59
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I grabbed the last few cards I needed to build this, so I'm going to sleave it up soon to get more testing done. Your approach with Hogaak/Mandrils/Deep Analysis is really pushing the deck in a good direction. Regardless of what we are doing in the early turns of the game we are advancing the game plan of landing multiple 4 power threats onto the battlefield. Deep Analysis is actual card advantage that supports both Hollow One (discarding to enable) and Shadow by costing 3 life to flash it back. The overlapping synergies are getting to a critical mass, which means we're getting closer to a smooth running deck.

    One thought: I ended up still jamming a Cephalid Coliseum into the mana-base, taking out the basic swamp. We may want to consider basic Island in the sideboard for Wasteland/Blood Moon decks so we can still play our Careful Study/Deep Analysis/Daze/Brazen Borrowers. I'm not sure whether the Sylvan Library is more important than that, but one of them is going in the 4th Force of Vigor slot. I'm not convinced just yet that 15 maindeck green cards is enough to support Force of Vigor (18-19 post board.) We may want to look at Nature's Claim instead.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  20. #60

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I grabbed the last few cards I needed to build this, so I'm going to sleave it up soon to get more testing done. Your approach with Hogaak/Mandrils/Deep Analysis is really pushing the deck in a good direction. Regardless of what we are doing in the early turns of the game we are advancing the game plan of landing multiple 4 power threats onto the battlefield. Deep Analysis is actual card advantage that supports both Hollow One (discarding to enable) and Shadow by costing 3 life to flash it back. The overlapping synergies are getting to a critical mass, which means we're getting closer to a smooth running deck.

    One thought: I ended up still jamming a Cephalid Coliseum into the mana-base, taking out the basic swamp. We may want to consider basic Island in the sideboard for Wasteland/Blood Moon decks so we can still play our Careful Study/Deep Analysis/Daze/Brazen Borrowers. I'm not sure whether the Sylvan Library is more important than that, but one of them is going in the 4th Force of Vigor slot. I'm not convinced just yet that 15 maindeck green cards is enough to support Force of Vigor (18-19 post board.) We may want to look at Nature's Claim instead.
    I think CC can be a really great addition to the deck at the cost of a basic swamp. We hit threshold much faster now with just a single Gtroll, CC can also help play DS little bit earlier. Depending on your meta though, if there are too many wasteland decks, it might be rough to not have any basics, but we do have force of vigor for moon/b2b. I play online, with the meta mostly being skewed to either oko/uro/control or Ancient tomb/city/chalice decks, not having basics are ok for now.

    For Sylvan library, so far i have not manage to draw/play with it with SHIV. Personally though, i do not like the card with the current meta, it just feels too slow for what we want to do, like i don't like the feeling of dropping a library and passing the turn, especially for a aggro deck.

    For Force of vigor, i really like playing the full playset. If im not mistaken, there was an CBF or SCG article discussing about the min. number of blue cards for FOW, think it was like 16or17. Against leyline decks, i found that we can actually play the graveyard game once we unlock (vigor or decay) so i still keep the GY game pcs in, turns out we have enough green to maintain both destroying hate pcs + GY game (19 greens postboard against leyline decks). We can certainly play nature's claim as well, i just prefer vigor because it's free and and it hits 2 things as usually leyline decks are also chalice/annoying lock pcs deck, so if i can get it in opening hand, i can better utilise my mana for T1/T2 drop or something. Vigor also plays better against chalice. I guess another way is to cut 1xdecay for nature's claim, but again decay so good against blue decks xD
    -3x thoughtseize
    -1x Mandrils
    -1x reanimate
    -1x Gtroll


    +4x Vigor
    +2x decay

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