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Thread: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

  1. #21
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I was just thinking I could actually use mana to cast Gurmag and I would want to be attacking with dudes rather than using them to cast Hogaak. I will try Hogaak first though, your point makes a lot of sense.
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  2. #22

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It offers the most versatility, mostly due to Lotleth Troll. Sideboard would have something like Veil of Summer instead of Pyroblast. It's still fundamentally Bux, with the x currently being green.

    What's on your mind with red? What does it offer other than Faithless Looting?

    I do think 14 land plus 4x OUAT is probably correct. I have noticed a trend of getting a bigger graveyard than with the all-in 5c list, due to fetches, wraith, and careful study. I think a card to re-evaluate is 1 Gurmag Angler.

    I tried rootwalla instead of petals, it was terrible. Currently on 3x Petal/1x Gurmag to test if I can support a mid game 5/5 delve.
    Nah, i was just curious as usually hollow one strategies go for those faithless looting/control of court/goblin lore and firestorm enablers haha.
    I like the fact that the deck actually operates just off 1 black source essentially.
    Anyway i will try to play the deck abit online too and give some feedback

  3. #23
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Feedback would be greatly appreciated! I am limited in how much I can test until covid is over.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  4. #24

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Feedback would be greatly appreciated! I am limited in how much I can test until covid is over.
    Played a some games against random opponents.
    Things i learnt and found :
    -Deck is able to churn out t1 hollow one and/or vengevine more often than expected. I would say maybe 70% of the time?
    -It is not uncommon to go imp > discard venge + land into hollow one on T1
    -13lands and 4OUAT is enough. OUAT is pretty mvp in setting up t1 creature flood. It also strong midgame, either looking for an additional 1drop to do a double 1drop vengvine return or to find a land for bloodghast would definately play 4copies. It also found me borrower to bounce an elephant grass once. (Maybe ingot chewer could be a consideration in sb but it red though haha...it be quite synergistic as a creature coming into play too haha)
    -1xReanimate provides so much oomph...even with just 1 copy i hand it couple of times to use it on street wraiths or vengevine.
    -Deck needs more ways to deal with Chalice, maybe +1 decay in sb? Chalice pretty much destroys the deck until we find borrowers / EE.
    -I find myself boarding out prized amalgrams for borrowers very often, maybe it just seem weak, but maybe im wrong
    -Daze is so powerful, i dont find myself ever boarding it out.
    -Deck definately needs an additional green source for midgame casting of OUAT.
    -Death shadow is a great addition to the deck as its a 1drop which easily cast 2per turn to bring vengevine out. They grow really fast too, especially with fetch>shockland into reanimate.
    -With all said and done, deck is not so straight forward to pilot pass turn 1 and 2...it requires alot of forward thinking.
    (Eg. Dont just play imp midgame, holding on to it and drawing either a OUAT or careful study could chain you into bloodghast/vengevine burst turn turning the tide)


    ***Edit: Just finished another incredible game against shark miracles.
    G1 was closed out pretty fast with early imp + amalgram + hollow one + bloodghast into death's shadow even through the onslaught of STPs + cast out.
    G2 was an epic grind where opponent had T1 Grafdigger cage out but i had bitterblossom in hand. Managed to land an early threat of hollow one + death shadow via careful study + lotus petal.
    Opponent had to cycle 0 for shark typhoons to dig for answers.
    Opponent landed another Grafdigger's cage and after 2xSTP for both threats and even answered bitterblossom with cast out but i already had 2faeries in play...
    Managed to draw into both borrowers later returned castout end of turn. Drew a thoughtcast and looked at opponent's hand, took away castout and left him with Terminus in hand. Opponent GG-ed with 3xfaerie on board and we still had borrower + another bitterblossom in hand.
    Last edited by Blacksummer; 09-28-2020 at 07:00 AM.

  5. #25
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Nice work! You're saying 13 lands + 4x OUAT is enough, does that mean you cut Lotus Petals for something else? I'm curious what that was. Or are you suggesting that 13 lands + 4 OUAT + 4 Petals is enough? I'm working on getting a Hogaak into the list, another way to get the grind going in the midgame. I'd love to record your exact list in the opening post so I can compare it and give credit.

    So with Abrupt Decay being a necessary card, I would say the natural place to cut is Oko in the sideboard. I think with 2x Abrupt Decay we can comfortable cut down to 1 Dismember.


    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Bitterblossom
    2x Brazen Borrower
    1x Sylvan Library
    2x Cabal Therapy
    1x Dismember
    1x Sickening Dreams
    1x Engineered Explosives
    2x Abrupt Decay
    1x Karakas


    As far as the mana-base goes, here would be my starting point to add another green mana source:

    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Watery Grave
    1x Breeding Pool
    1x Bayou
    1x Island
    1x Swamp


    The Bayou is because we sometimes need to fetch into a green source in the mid-game to play Once Upon a Time but we won't be able to pay the life for Overgrown Tomb (or Breeding Pool.) I like that this mana base provides the potential for hard casting Vengevine, even if it isn't likely. If we are cutting Lotus Petals (still unsure on that) I think we would have to actually cut down to only 1 basic land, and it would have to be Island for Daze/Borrower. I would just add in another dual land of some flavor, probably Breeding Pool #2, to feed Daze/Borrower/green requirements in the absence of Petal providing it.

    EDIT: I have also noticed the careful sequencing that needs to happen, this is certainly not an auto-pilot deck by any means. I have noticed that Putrid Imp is easily a 2/2 by turn 3-4 as well, which is something I didn't predict. The fetchlands really help in that regard. I'm hoping a copy of Hogaak can get in there, because in the mid-game it would be fairly easy to use that graveyard resource with a Pimp/Bloodghast to put on pressure.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  6. #26

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Ah i played it with:
    13 lands
    4 OUAT
    3 petals

    I would leave the petals in as they allow for explosive t1 plays like careful study discard 2xbloodghast and play a land, cast imp/thoughtseize etc. (It happens !!!)
    Can also let us play our spells without fear of daze (at least that was what i felt while playing xD )

    Yea i think cutting Oko and a dismember is fine, mostly needed the decay for those pesky lock pcs which can be really annoying when you have a whole hand / or even board wide creatures ready to unload xD
    Last edited by Blacksummer; 09-28-2020 at 11:23 AM.

  7. #27
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Cool, thanks. I'll switch over to that setup. Now I just need to work in the Hogaak somehow...

    List in opening post is updated. The only thing I could do is cut 1x Once Upon a Time, or another Petal, for the Hogaak. I don't necessarily think either is the right cut. I can't cut the Lotleth Troll, I need the 5th creature discard enabler.
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  8. #28

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Cool, thanks. I'll switch over to that setup. Now I just need to work in the Hogaak somehow...

    List in opening post is updated. The only thing I could do is cut 1x Once Upon a Time, or another Petal, for the Hogaak. I don't necessarily think either is the right cut. I can't cut the Lotleth Troll, I need the 5th creature discard enabler.
    Maybe cut a Prized Amalgram for Hogaak?
    lol...i don't know why but i find him to be the weakest creature because to bring him back, we are already having something coming back from GY xD
    Also he's just a 3/3 who requires 2-step process to be brought back.

  9. #29
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    That seems reasonable, especially since Amalgam doesn't help us cast Hogaak (when free enters tapped at EOT) so the tension between those two cards does point towards Amalgam being the cut. I'll test it out.
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  10. #30

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    That seems reasonable, especially since Amalgam doesn't help us cast Hogaak (when free enters tapped at EOT) so the tension between those two cards does point towards Amalgam being the cut. I'll test it out.
    Yes please !!! i am pretty curious how good Hogaak is for this deck too.
    I didn't think we would need Hogaak anyways as the deck wants to go wide and attack every turn as early as T1.
    But who knows, if we can get it to come in play fast (via convoking summoning sickness creatures), 8/8 trample would be much more effective as a beatdown, could even have a line featuring fetch + petals > careful study into reanimate Hogaak into death shadow the following turn.

  11. #31
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Yeah, those lines come to mind as well, but the big one is this: if there is a window for opponent's to stall us out, such as with multiple removal spells, blockers or Terminus, we can still have a threat that can finish up games fast. Death's Shadow is the primary one but Hogaak as an 8/8 trampler should really put pressure on as well. Rebuilding into a Hogaak is better than just getting a Vengevine or Hollow one in the mid-game. The graveyard for delving is an untapped resource for us currently; most of the cards in there we will want back (Bloodghast, Vengevine, Amalgam.) But fetchlands, Street Wraiths, Petals, Daze, and Careful Study all feed 1-2 delve cards for the deck nicely. Hogaak seems like the best one, simply because we can discard it to Imp/Study/Troll and still have it available. I would love if someone wasted a Surgical on Hogaak, too...because we would only have 1 copy and it takes pressure off our other threats.

    The other card that is better than it has any right to be is Reanimate. We don't have just Street Wraiths to enable Death's Shadow, we also have Hollow One and Vengevine dinging for 4-5 life. Reanimate in hand allows for Hollow One lines that don't require 3 discards, just one black mana. Reanimate is another card that enables Prized Amalgam to come back for free. It also does the same function as in traditional Shadow decks: it allows us to Reanimate our opponent's creatures. It's been a long time since a singleton in a deck impressed me this much. I don't want more than 1, but that 1 is amazing.

    For now, I'm going to accept that 1 Lotleth Troll is all I can fit in. The fact that it can only discard creatures is somewhat of a hindrance, especially if I have non-creature cards I want to discard to enable Hollow One. The other option is to just bite the bullet and cut back down to 3 OUAT and jam it back in.

    I'm going to start working up some theoretical sideboarding plans within the next couple days and drop them into the reserved post. Decks I will cover in the initial blast will be RUG/UR Delver, Death and Taxes, Sneak/Show, Dark Depths, SnOko, Miracles, and TES. Once I tackle those I'll get to Hogaak, Reanimator, Maverick, Eldrazi, Burn, and UWx Stoneblade.
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  12. #32
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Cephalid Coliseum Needs to be part of our discussion, especially now that blue is a foundational part of the plan. I think with fetchlands we can hit threshold, and in the mid-game a Coliseum activation could be bonkers: it single-handedly casts Hollow One and easily supercharges Hogaak. I will try to fit in 1 to see how it goes. I'm not sure where to cut in the mana-base, but it's worth mentioning that it does cost life to use for mana, so it supports Death's Shadow nicely.

    EDIT: CC could be sideboard tech, adding lands in the Wasteland-based matchups like RUG Delver. We do board in Abrupt Decay in that matchup, so it doesn't help in that regard, so it might be correct to board the Breeding Pool and maindeck the Coliseum. If it gets too dicey for the CC I'll just leave it out, but it looks like it has pretty good potential.
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  13. #33

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Cephalid Coliseum Needs to be part of our discussion, especially now that blue is a foundational part of the plan. I think with fetchlands we can hit threshold, and in the mid-game a Coliseum activation could be bonkers: it single-handedly casts Hollow One and easily supercharges Hogaak. I will try to fit in 1 to see how it goes. I'm not sure where to cut in the mana-base, but it's worth mentioning that it does cost life to use for mana, so it supports Death's Shadow nicely.

    EDIT: CC could be sideboard tech, adding lands in the Wasteland-based matchups like RUG Delver. We do board in Abrupt Decay in that matchup, so it doesn't help in that regard, so it might be correct to board the Breeding Pool and maindeck the Coliseum. If it gets too dicey for the CC I'll just leave it out, but it looks like it has pretty good potential.
    Personally i love how OUAT interacts with the deck be it opening hand or midgame, so i will definitely go with 4copies.
    Its just so good, basically the 5cards will always enable some kind of play, either getting a land for bloodghast or just to lower our life for DS or simply to grab a creature for casting or discard/GY return.
    OUATs digs for CC too !!! <3

    I really like CC since loot3 is seriously explosive with the deck, we have to try it out to see it's power level, like when we do draw it, does it feel like a game changer that bring us back??? a win-more card ??? or it actually doesn't even do much with a(any) given situation. Also we have to test it for it's timing (like how fast we can get threshold while we are still at even playing ground against the opponent).

    Just a thought, maybe we can go all in cutting the island for CC, it's greedy, but getting wasted even when on the draw T1 after we did our thing might not be so terrible since the deck operates fine for couple of turns off just 1mana Game1...we can try that. TBH of the ~6games (UR delver x2/Greenpost/echo urza/some really slow BUG lands hybrid/Shark miracles) i played against, island was never a fetch priority. It was always either watery grave or swamp.

  14. #34
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I'll cut Island for Colisseum then. With Breeding pool we will have 3 'islands' for Daze, which should be ok. I guess I never really got past Blood Moon being something I needed to work around. It's pretty rare, and the majority of chalices we are seeing isn't really high either.

    I think you're right on OUAT, I'll play 4. It kind if rewards us for playing so few lands.
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  15. #35
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I am also looking at other cards that could really give the deck options. Singletons can be very good in this deck due to velocity and how high-impact they usually are (Troll, Reanimate, Coliseum.) So with that said, I think there are a few cards to consider for playtesting. Some of them were discussed in the GB Vengevine thread, but I wanted to get them down here for posterity. This is a different deck, too.

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    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 10-02-2020 at 08:29 AM.
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  16. #36

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Played 4games with the updated list with (CC > island) (Hogaak > prized):

    1)Against some white life gain griffin aerie deck. 2-0
    Game was fast as opponent could not keep up with death show and board wide power to gain enough life for his deck to work properly.

    2)Against Aggro loam Oko. 2-1
    Game 1 Was sick, opened T1 with imp/venge/hollow/prized on board, hit for 4, opponent conceded after passing back the turn to him.
    Game 2 Was a grind, opponent opened with 2leylines onboard and chalice afterwards which really hindered our plans even though we switched out to midrange plan with borrowers/decay/blossoms. Opponent had decays + trophy in hand which removed our bitterblossom and eventually drew into wastelands even though we surgical the loam, opponent resolved a 2nd Oko after we dazed the first, leaving us with no resources and land locked and impossible to grind with Oko.
    Game 3 Was pretty clutch where we managed to thoughtseize opponent discard their Oko and bring early 2xblooghast back into play which played into a fast hogaak closing the game fast. Reckon we would have lost if we dragged on as opponent had sylvan lib in play and any draw of Oko/karakas/strix/plow would be gg for us.


    3)Against 4C Styfro Pile. 1-2
    Game 1 Was again won by us through explosive opening of T1 thoughtseize take Oko into turn2 imp discard double venge > cycled wraith into death shadow bring back 2x venge and attacked.
    Game 2 We again tried to sb for the grindy game, i made the mistake of landing troll into hollow one to try to close out the game fast but opponent bolted troll and played dack fayden who -2 took hollow one and that's pretty much gg.
    Game 3 Opponent landed we took out hollow ones for this game. T1 therapy and named Oko which did not hit, looked at opponent's hand and saw 2x abrade + p-fire + relic. Tried to grind out with our creatures in hand but everything pretty much got removed + reliced and opponent landed dack into karn grabbing liquid metal later on which locked up the game. Also we lasted at least 6turns+ without drawing a 2nd land, only a 2x lotus which i used on OUAT and whiffed 5cards land draw and cast a troll to try to grow it big. Opponent's Grove made it almost impossible to play death shadow.


    Summary, I think it was good that we managed to play with some proper control decks today. It reminded me how OP oko is and how it is actually impossible to grind against them. Also the sideboard plan of playing a much slower gameplan turned out badly (Read previous post to when i played grixis pheonix previously, Oko was not yet printed, thus it was possible to swap to grindy sb plan). I think i was wrong to try to grind out with decks that are designed to play that. By going slow meaning dropping 1or2 things per turn, we give opponent time to dig for removal which traded 1for1 in their favor and since we dont play any PW, it was impossible to gain value on board. We always won the first game because of how the deck can consistently put so much power on board as early as t1/t2 which made it impossible to opponent to interact with.

    TLDR: I think we need to rethink how we play G2 and G3, and also redesign sideboard.

  17. #37
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Good feedback! Which leads me to think the sideboard plan needs to focus on dealing with the graveyard and PW's, and potentially more ways of finding those pieces. We also have a lot of 'tweaks', but almost no blowout sideboard cards. Blowout cards in a deck with our amount of velocity can be one powerful way to get g2-3 wins. The real issue is that there aren't any real blowout cards for the current format, simply because it's so combo-light.

    I'm open to any/all suggestions for how to improve matchups. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate Force of Will again, simply because if we can maintain a fast 'combo' but increase free ways to protect it we can get under the blue-mid-range decks.

    One thing to keep in mind as well is that sometimes we simply won't be able to beat certain matchups, and we have to accept that. If those matchups are too common in the metagame then we need to overhaul or switch decks for a while. I'm hesitant to overhaul, because variance in the metagame is a real thing. This isn't a deck that auto-plays, we will have to play tightly regardless of whether its good in the metagame or not. Fundamentally as an aggro deck we will always be the ones trying to force opponents to answer us, rather than the other way around. I'm going to do some research in how Dredge, Hogaak, and Reanimator sideboard to grind out wins g2-3.

    Our advantage is our speed, which your results show clearly. Often, if you get a great opening, opponents are dead by turn 3 or conceding. Going wide is largely the reason why opponents can't handle the onslaught, and what will overwhelm 1-for-1 trading from opponents. So I think I'll go back to 4x Amalgam, cut the Hogaak, and try a sideboard configuration that will hopefully give us a window to overload the board. It might not be on turn 1-2, but if we can answer hate and Oko by turn 3, a turn 4 swarm should be ok.

    Fingers crossed for an Oko ban, lol. Taking just that one card out of consideration makes piloting the sideboard a lot easier.
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  18. #38
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    That diagnosis pretty much lines up with exactly what I've been saying.

    The strength of this deck is its ability to overwhelm the opponent on turns 1-2 with too much for them to deal with. Slowing down doesn't make any sense, and it's better to fight through the hate than to try and compete on a slow grindy axis.

    While I see the merits in diversifying the threat base with graveyard independent threats (Shadow), I remain unconvinced that it's better than running Tireless Tribe and Basking Rootwalla, and emphasizing the more broken turn 1 starts. I like what Daze does for the deck, but I question how much better it is than Cavern of Souls for pushing through Chalice and opposing countermagic. It does counter Oko, sure, but if we can consistently get a bunch of dudes on the board on turns 1-2, Oko shouldn't be a problem. The bigger issue to address is graveyard hate; I think the sideboard should be used to fight graveyard hate, along with a few other cards that help improve problematic matchups.

    I'm also firmly in the belief that with 12-14 lands + 4 Lotus Petal, even with Once Upon a Time and Careful Study, you should still be focusing on lower costed stuff in the sideboard. 0cc and 1cc answers should be prioritized over 2cc+ options. Additionally, creature and land options in the sideboard play better with Once Upon a Time.
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  19. #39

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    About maindeck
    The only blowout cards i can think of are like berserk/become immerse if we are talking about trying to go all in.
    But with the amount of removal available, it's pretty impossible to get that kind of damage to face.
    Hold that thought on Hogaak though, he was actually good...able to be cast off creatures with summoning sickness for the hit in next turn. I think he might need more testing.
    I am also thinking about hooting mandrils as a "1drop", as hitting 5cards in GY might be 1turn sooner then 6 for Gurmag, and trample so relevant in the meta now.

    About Sideboard
    If i'm not wrong, graveyard decks try to play things like revenent silence or force of vigor to get rid of permanent GY hate or like silent gravestone to prevent targeting.
    When i was running the "slow g2/g3 plan", Oko was a problem because we couldn't outgrind it.
    Maybe like wat Hanni said by going back to the turbo plan, Oko might not be a problem at all as it takes "1turn for it to truely come online".

    About Matchups
    If we are to give up on matchups, i would drop my chances against combos and bump up my win rate against control/midrange.
    Reasoning is that our deck itself performs like a combo and it might be possible to race opponent since most combo have an empty board. Also combo is combo tbh...if they managed go off T1/T2 (eg.storm/SnT/Dredge) without us having very specific hate, we are just wasting sb space. Also, i hate losing to control since the match tends to drag out for long time and it just painful to grind it out with 20turns in and at the end they stabilize.

  20. #40
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    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksummer View Post
    About maindeck
    The only blowout cards i can think of are like berserk/become immerse if we are talking about trying to go all in.
    But with the amount of removal available, it's pretty impossible to get that kind of damage to face.
    Hold that thought on Hogaak though, he was actually good...able to be cast off creatures with summoning sickness for the hit in next turn. I think he might need more testing.
    I am also thinking about hooting mandrils as a "1drop", as hitting 5cards in GY might be 1turn sooner then 6 for Gurmag, and trample so relevant in the meta now.

    About Sideboard
    If i'm not wrong, graveyard decks try to play things like revenent silence or force of vigor to get rid of permanent GY hate or like silent gravestone to prevent targeting.
    When i was running the "slow g2/g3 plan", Oko was a problem because we couldn't outgrind it.
    Maybe like wat Hanni said by going back to the turbo plan, Oko might not be a problem at all as it takes "1turn for it to truely come online".

    About Matchups
    If we are to give up on matchups, i would drop my chances against combos and bump up my win rate against control/midrange.
    Reasoning is that our deck itself performs like a combo and it might be possible to race opponent since most combo have an empty board. Also combo is combo tbh...if they managed go off T1/T2 (eg.storm/SnT/Dredge) without us having very specific hate, we are just wasting sb space. Also, i hate losing to control since the match tends to drag out for long time and it just painful to grind it out with 20turns in and at the end they stabilize.
    I don't mean to take away from the discussion of the Shadow version by posting this, but this is what I am referring to by more speed:

    Lands (12)
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    4 Mana Confluence

    Creatures (32)
    4 Tireless Tribe
    4 Putrid Imp
    2 Carrion Feeder
    2 Gravecrawler
    4 Basking Rootwalla
    4 Hollow One
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Vengevine
    4 Prized Amalgam

    Spells (16)
    4 Once Upon a Time
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Lotus Petal

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Stain the Mind
    2 Force of Vigor
    2 Nature's Claim
    2 Firestorm
    1 Ruthless Sniper
    1 Big Game Hunter
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Silent Gravestone
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Karakas

    The speed increase comes from Tireless Tribe as an additional 1cc creature discard outlet, and Basking Rootwalla as another 0cc creature for triggering Vengevine.

    More importantly though, my sideboard is designed to fight through graveyard hate better. Thoughtseize would be better than Stain the Mind vs fighting against graveyard hate, since it can be cast before going off vs after, but I like how powerful it is against combo matchups and matchups with problematic cards that we need to deal with, like Terminus. Thoughtseize may well be better overall, though.

    Otherwise, it has Force of Vigor, Nature's Claim, Silent Gravestone, and Pithing Needle to fight against graveyard hate. Firestorm and Ruthless Sniper can also deal with Containment Priest and other hatebears.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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